Saison Not Finishing?

I've got a NB Saison going with 3724 that I don't think is finishing right. It's been about three weeks and when I racked it today I took a hydro reading and it's only 1.024 Tastes pretty sweet, too. I've tried to keep it at about 80 degrees. Will racking rouse the yeast and maybe finish it out a bit more? I certainly want it drier than it currently is.

80 is nothing to this yeast. Try getting it up to 90 if you can. Also try gently swirling the yeast up into suspension if they've fallen out.

If both these steps fail, you can pitch some US-05 to get it the rest of the way.

i've brewed saisons with the 3724 yeast a few times. i tend to brew it in the summer. reason why is when the fermentation seems to slow down halfway, i stick my fermentor in the garage until it gets the temperature way up to 85+ degrees.

in the wintertime when i use the 3724, i sit my fermentor on a heating pad, believe it or not.

i usually start the 3724 off cold, like 68 degrees. then i allow it to go up to the mid 80's.

Zokfend said:

i've brewed saisons with the 3724 yeast a few times. i tend to brew it in the summer. reason why is when the fermentation seems to slow down halfway, i stick my fermentor in the garage until it gets the temperature way up to 85+ degrees.

in the wintertime when i use the 3724, i sit my fermentor on a heating pad, believe it or not.

i usually start the 3724 off cold, like 68 degrees. then i allow it to go up to the mid 80's.

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I did start it around 70 and let it come up to as warm as the house would get it. Figures the 5 days after I brewed were the coolest in weeks. I actually had the fermenter covered with two hoodie sweatshirts. I'm hoping that the action of racking it will rouse the yeast a bit. I did notice as I was siphoning, that I started to see bubbles breaking the surface again. I didn't want to go as far as putting a heading pad under the fermenter.

That yeast likes it hot! Wyeast recommends pitching at 80 and raising into the 90s to prevent stalling. Since you pitched colder and didn't go that high it will be slow, like 4 weeks slow, you should not have racked it off the primary yeast cake.

Not saying it won't finish but you need to warm it up and it will definitely finish below 1.010!

So, set in on the back porch for the 90 degree day today? Heating pad under the fermenter (better bottle)?

drksky said:

So, set in on the back porch for the 90 degree day today? Heating pad under the fermenter (better bottle)?

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You don't want to keep swinging temps on the yeast so the heating pad would be better but you need to figure out what temp it's going to sit at so it doesn't get too hot! Personally I would wrap it around the vessel as the weight on the pad might cause problems since its not really designed for that use

I tested out the heating pad and with a probe thermometer sitting on the pad with a little weight on top it was already north of 120 on low, so that's no good. I'm going to put in the garage where the temps don't swing too badly and hope for the best.

You could also use an aquarium heater.

Easier option, pitch a pack of Wyeast 3711. 3711 likes it on the cooler side, between 68-75, and will attenuate like a champ. And since the bulk of your fermentation is already over, you should get more of the 3724 character than the 3711.

eulipion2 said:

Easier option, pitch a pack of Wyeast 3711. 3711 likes it on the cooler side, between 68-75, and will attenuate like a champ. And since the bulk of your fermentation is already over, you should get more of the 3724 character than the 3711.

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A big second of this advice.

eulipion2 said:

Easier option, pitch a pack of Wyeast 3711. 3711 likes it on the cooler side, between 68-75, and will attenuate like a champ. And since the bulk of your fermentation is already over, you should get more of the 3724 character than the 3711.

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So if I can't get the 3724 to finish, pitch a pack of 3711 on top of what I've already got?

I wrapped the carboy in a shirt to insulate it a bit and then with the heating pad on low. I checked it after a couple of days and it's dropped to 1.020 now. Not sure where the point would be that waiting longer would help any, and to just repitch to finish it.

drksky said:

So if I can't get the 3724 to finish, pitch a pack of 3711 on top of what I've already got?

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Yup. 3711 attenuates like a beast. I often joke that you could make a beer out of crystal malt and lactose and 3711 would dry it out. 1.020 is WAY too high for a saison, so pitch some 3711 to try and get your gravity down a bit.

FWIW, with my 3724 saison, I just swirled the secondary every couple days to shake up the yeast, and they attenuated in a few weeks. I had the carboy sitting a little warm, but probably not much higher than 80.

Just give it time. These yeast like to sit down and take a break every now and then, but they'll get back to work if you tell 'em to. Total fermentation time for my saison was ~5 weeks, and it went from 1.070 to 1.005.

I wrapped a heating pad around the carboy, followed by 2 layers of big-bubble wrap, and a thick dark towel to keep the light out. I kept my STC-1000 probe in close contact with the carboy wall (under a piece of foam) and set the temp to 32°C. This was a different saison yeast (Danstar) that likes it 90+.

If heating fails to restart in a couple of days, I'd think of 3711. You need a good size starter though...

IslandLizard said:

If heating fails to restart in a couple of days, I'd think of 3711. You need a good size starter though...

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Why do you need a starter? The 3724 has stalled/slowed, the gravity's at 1.020. 3711 should be able to take hold in that. Or would the starter be to accommodate the presence of alcohol and lack of oxygen? I've just never needed a starter for a repitch (admittedly I haven't needed to repitch very often), so I'm curious, is this common?

You could just rehydrate and pitch some Belle Saison dry yeast. Then you wouldn't have to worry about starters or oxygen or anything. And it's cheaper than liquid. I've heard it gets around 90% attenuation too.

peterj said:

You could just rehydrate and pitch some Belle Saison dry yeast. Then you wouldn't have to worry about starters or oxygen or anything. And it's cheaper than liquid. I've heard it gets around 90% attenuation too.

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I've used it once and agree, very attenuative. Another good choice!

I really don't know how well Belle Saison likes the alcoholic environment, but worth a try. Yeast is yeast. I used Belle Saison, and it is very nice and attenuates very well, but I did not restart a stuck fermentation with it.
It definitely should be hydrated following the instructions to a T. I hope they fixed those...

The reason to make a good size starter of the 3711, or any other liquid yeast, and pitch that at high krausen is to beat the odds of the hostile alcohol environment you're pitching into.

I'm going to take a sample again today. If it hasn't moved any further, I'll see if I can find some Belle Saison locally. Failing that, I'm sure one of my LHBSs has a pack of 3711.

So now I have another question. With the fermentation seemingly stalled, am I going to have problems with it carbing?

Just bottled a Saison using 3724. Very sluggish, took two months until it finished with a reading of 1.005. I moved mine to my garage to get more heat but with the cool summer it wasn't consistently hot enough. 3724 loves it hot. It finally finished when the temp in the garage was over 90. I bottled last Friday and cracked one open last night, just to see. Tho't it would be flat because of the long ferment. Not so. Perfect carbonation after only a week. I was going to brew a Saison/IPA with this yeast but don't think I can keep it hot enough. It might not finish until next spring.

It was still at 1.020 this morning so I broke down and brought some Belle Saison that I'm going to pitch this afternoon. One thing I do remember is that when I smacked it, it was very slow to swell the pack and never really did get it as taught as other smack packs.

My suggestion for next time is to follow this temp profile for fermentation.

Pitch at 68F and hold for 2 days. Then set temp controller for 80F and use a heating element (I use a ferm wrap) and let it sit for 3-5 days more at this temp. By Day 4 (of 7-8 total fermentation days) I'm usually done fermenting and the last few days it is cleaning up.

I'll keg, chill overnight, force carbonate and can drink by day 10. I'm drinking one this weekend that is 8 days old and its delicious!

Racking to a secondary before it was done fermenting probably didn't help. 3724 is a slug unless you warm it up. It will finish eventually but it will take it's sweet time doing so. I prefer WLP 566. Gives similar flavors without the staling. I was told 3942 may be an alternative to 3724. I have not tried it though.

Hmmmm...I pitched a full packet of rehydrated Belle Saison yesterday around noon and 24 hours later I don't see any signs of renewed fermentation and it's still stubbornly stuck at 1.020?

drksky said:

Hmmmm...I pitched a full packet of rehydrated Belle Saison yesterday around noon and 24 hours later I don't see any signs of renewed fermentation and it's still stubbornly stuck at 1.020?

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What temp are you at? Belle Saison likes it hot, all the way up to 92°F, perhaps higher. Their spec sheet is incomplete and hard to understand.

Was your pitched hydrated yeast within 18°F of the beer temp?

Unless you have a boat load of unfermentables, it should attenuate. You may not see big bubbles, and it maybe slow moving. Time will tell.

Just an observation.

On 8/31 you said the gravity was 1.024, and on 9/6 you measured 1.020. To most of us that means your 3724 was still attenuating. Your swinging temps could be the reason that slowed down the yeast to a crawl. Try to keep this baby warm, at the same temperature, and have patience. It will get there, unless there is nothing to ferment for the yeast. Some extracts seem to leave a lot of unfermentables that even the regular Saison yeasts can't break down. 3711 has some of the strongest teeth and is tenacious.

IslandLizard said:

Just an observation.

On 8/31 you said the gravity was 1.024, and on 9/6 you measured 1.020. To most of us that means your 3724 was still attenuating. Your swinging temps could be the reason that slowed down the yeast to a crawl. Try to keep this baby warm, at the same temperature, and have patience. It will get there, unless there is nothing to ferment for the yeast. Some extracts seem to leave a lot of unfermentables that even the regular Saison yeasts can't break down. 3711 has some of the strongest teeth and is tenacious.

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The probe I've got taped to the side of the better bottle is telling me 85. The sample I pulled this morning measured 83 and change. This is about the best I can do with my equipment and environment. I'll just try to keep the temp constant and just let it be. Obsessively taking gravity readings isn't going to get me anywhere, I suppose.

3724 will finish below 1.010 for you but you are just going to have to be patient because your fermentation schedule has been less than ideal..........

Go brew something else in the meantime and periodically go back to this one and rouse the yeast every few days and in another week or so it should be done so just leave it be for now and stop making yourself nuts over it

If you choose to use this yeast again be prepared to pitch it at 80 and allow to self rise into the mid 90's or with a controllable heat source and it will finish in 10 days easily with a great flavor profile, that's all I can tell you.

duboman said:

If you choose to use this yeast again be prepared to pitch it at 80 and allow to self rise into the mid 90's or with a controllable heat source and it will finish in 10 days easily with a great flavor profile, that's all I can tell you.

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Do a search on 3724 and you'll find tons of folks who have done everything according to best practices and still had it refuse to finish after 5 weeks, me included.

I think it's perfectly acceptable to toss in some 3711 if a month with the 3724 hasn't finished the deal.

BackAlley said:

Do a search on 3724 and you'll find tons of folks who have done everything according to best practices and still had it refuse to finish after 5 weeks, me included.

I think it's perfectly acceptable to toss in some 3711 if a month with the 3724 hasn't finished the deal.

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I'm not saying its not acceptable to toss in 3711, I'm just saying that the 3724 will finish if the brewer is patient

I'm going to just forget the thing is there. I have to say, the samples that I've pulled taste very good, but they just have too much sweetness for a Saison. So, I'll it sit in the corner for a while and go drink the 8 or so other varieties I've got in the bottle already.

Update: 10 days and a couple of 85-90 degree days and it measured at 1.006 or so. So either the Belle Saison did the job, or the 3724 woke up, or both. Sample tastes pretty good.