Another P-J Diagram: BIAB 5500W Single Vessel Single Pump, Illuminated Switches

UPDATE: This wiring diagram has gone through a few different revisions since this thread had started...mainly around the wiring of the switches. I have updated the OP with the latest (and hopefully) final diagram (from post #17).

I am in the process of moving from propane to electric. P-J has been an incredible help (behind the scenes) with the control panel wiring. I thought that there may be others out there that want to build a similiar system so I figured I would post the wiring diagram that P-J provided to me (hope you don't mind P-J).

BIAB, 5500W, Single Vessel, Simgle Pump with these illuminated switches from Auberins: http://www.auberins.com/index.php?m...id=223&zenid=ab8093581ddb0f3995d65247c34d338a



I know I thanked you many times via PM P-J, but, once again...THANK YOU!!!

John

This is exactly what i have been looking for.

Did he also supply you with his brew parts order list for this?

Are you planning on recirculating during the mash with your pump?

Brew parts as in the control panel parts? Or actual kettle, pump, etc.?

Yep...I plan on recircing during the entire length of the mash.

John

johnodon said:

...
I know I thanked you many times via PM P-J, but, once again...THANK YOU!!!

John

Click to expand...

Just so you know - You Are More Than Welcome!

I'm pleased that I could help you with your plan.
Keep this thread going so we all can see your progress.

P-J

P-J,

In our conversations I had asked you where I need to have 10ga wire and you answereed:

You will need to use #10 wire for the power going to the element through the SSR & contactor. All of the balance of the wiring can be done with #14 wire.

Click to expand...

Can you take a quick look at the moddified diagram below and let me know if I missed any?



Thanks!

John

That's a great setup! I like it a lot and it's similar to Psych's but with a pump, which is what I'm planning on using (eventually).

I just have to get on the horse and start ordering parts. What were you going to use for an enclosure?

Ph mag god! This is damn close to what I've been looking for in a build.

Fly_Rodder said:

That's a great setup! I like it a lot and it's similar to Psych's but with a pump, which is what I'm planning on using (eventually).

I just have to get on the horse and start ordering parts. What were you going to use for an enclosure?

Click to expand...

I am using the project box on Auberins: http://www.auberins.com/index.php?m...id=143&zenid=07ab2eb8b53d7fe8f8cf800855feaee4

It is is a bit tight but since I don't have too many things going on, the space is managable. It is also nice because it already has the hole for the PID cut out. The only add shaped hole I will need to cut now is for the outlet for the pump.

These are the illuminated switches: http://www.auberins.com/index.php?m...id=223&zenid=07ab2eb8b53d7fe8f8cf800855feaee4

They are a bit pricey but I like 'em!! I just cut the holes and mounted them a few minutes ago.

John

johnodon said:

P-J,

In our conversations I had asked you where I need to have 10ga wire and you answereed:
...
Can you take a quick look at the moddified diagram below and let me know if I missed any?

Click to expand...

John,

Looks great! go with that.

P-J

johnodon said:

...
The only add shaped hole I will need to cut now is for the outlet for the pump.
...

Click to expand...

Make it easy on yourself and use this type outlet:



All you need to do is drill or punch a round hole.

P-J said:

Make it easy on yourself and use this type outlet:

All you need to do is drill or punch a round hole.

Click to expand...

Great idea! Thanks P-J.

John

Another thought for you. Save a little space and cut the tabs at the red lines and then use the cover mount screw holes to mount it in your control box.

P-J said:

Another thought for you. Save a little space and cut the tabs at the red lines and then use the cover mount screw holes to mount it in your control box.

Click to expand...

That is an excellent idea. I really wanted to mount both the 240v and the 120v on the back of the control box (the Auber one) but it would have been really tight. Actually, I don't think it would have happened at all. If I cut those legs I think I can make both fit.

Thanks again and keep the suggestions coming!

John

OK P-J...couple more wiring questions (ignore my current wiring...I got ahead of myself)...

Regarding the illuminated switches
Each has a total of 6 posts. 4 posts pretty much in a retangular pattern (shown as 24 and 14 in the pic and the same on the underside but different #s) and 2 posts separated from that rectangle (top right next to the yellow tab).



Using the PUMP SWITCH as an example, does LINE 1 go to any one of the 4 posts in a rectangular configuration and the a separate line goes from one of the offset posts to HOT post on the receptacle?

And..regarding the contactor...

Are the screw down posts for the 10ga (240v) wire (red wire in the pics) and the spades on the sides for the 120v (coil) wires (white and black wires with the blue plastic)? If so, are all 240v posts the same and all 120v posts the same...meaning orientation doesn't matter?

Thanks,

John

johnodon said:

OK P-J...couple more wiring questions (ignore my current wiring...I got ahead of myself)...

Regarding the illuminated switches
Each has a total of 6 posts. 4 posts pretty much in a retangular pattern (shown as 24 and 14 in the pic and the same on the underside but different #s) and 2 posts separated from that rectangle (top right next to the yellow tab).

Using the PUMP SWITCH as an example, does LINE 1 go to any one of the 4 posts in a rectangular configuration and the a separate line goes from one of the offset posts to HOT post on the receptacle?

And..regarding the contactor...

Are the screw down posts for the 10ga (240v) wire (red wire in the pics) and the spades on the sides for the 120v (coil) wires (white and black wires with the blue plastic)? If so, are all 240v posts the same and all 120v posts the same...meaning orientation doesn't matter?

Thanks,

John

Click to expand...

For the switch: You need to read this Switch Manual for the terminal designations and connections.

Regarding the contactor: The terminals on the side (white and black wires) are the coil connections.

The connections where you have the two red wires are the posts for the input of the 2 phases. The output terminals are on the other side of the contactor where you have both black wires connected. The way you have it set up you will absolutely no power being delivered to the element.

In other words - you should have a black and a red wire connected to those terminals. The same for the output terminals. (Based on the diagram that I drew for you.)

I hope this helps you.

BTW, Do you have an ohm meter? With that you can test out you wiring before powering up.

P-J

P-J,

I took a shot at wiring the switches using the manual on the Auber site. Here is a pic of how they show it to be wired. However, I think this is intended for a 240v application:



So, I simply removed one of the hot wires from the equation since each switch will have only a 120v load:



Here is what I came up with in the end:



Is my thinking correct? My concern is that I was talking to a electrical engineer (in training) and he drew the diagram a little differently...like below...where he tied the neutral back into the switch LED:



I probably should not have doubted him but it happens!

Here is the diagram if I follow his instructions:



TIA!

John

John,

You have it right with your last illustration.

Here is an updated drawing for you.
(As always, click on the image for a full scale diagram printable on Tabloid paper 11" x 17")



P-J

Awesome P-J...thank you very much.

As you can see, I took the e-stop out as automationdirect has them back ordered. I figured I can do without it for the time being and add it later. Thwy have the blackon in stock but I really want the yellow to stand out.

I'm in MI for a week so I can't work on my panel...even though it is calling to me.

Thanks again!

John

Pretty cool. A local brew buddy turned me on to the idea of BIAB. This seems like it would be awesome. I will also through out there that I think shorting to ground for an E-Stop is a bad idea. It works in theory... but isn't really the way to do it. Basically you should have a contactor/relay that powers itself... the E-Stop should cut the coil current on the contactor/relay which will kill the device. Relying on an outside device for E-Stop safety is generally considered bad practice.

And do you have diagrams/pictures of the rest of the setup? (The pumps, flow, etc)?

EFaden said:

...
I will also through out there that I think shorting to ground for an E-Stop is a bad idea.
...

Click to expand...

I imagine that you also think it is a bad idea to press the test button on the GFCI circuit breaker.

The E-Stop circuit does not provide a short to ground. It provides a leakage current of 0.06A to ground. It is approxomately the same current that is used when pressing the test button.

P-J said:

I imagine that you also think it is a bad idea to press the test button on the GFCI circuit breaker.

The E-Stop circuit does not provide a short to ground. It provides a leakage current of 0.06A to ground. It is approxomately the same current that is used when pressing the test button.

Click to expand...

No. I don't think it is bad to press the test button. I am not debating that it works. I am stating that from the point of view of safety an emergency stop should not rely on items outside of the control panel to work. This is coming from the perspective of someone who has actually worked on automation systems, etc. It is my $0.02, you can take it or leave it.

Thank you. I WILL leave it.!!!

From the point of view for safety, When the power is disabled from the source, there is NO power in the control panel. If it is 'interlocked' within the panel, there is still power available within the panel and the circuits AND lines feeding it.

You have your opinions. I have mine.

Done.!

BTW: Nice attempt at a slam:

This is coming from the perspective of someone who has actually worked on automation systems, etc.

Click to expand...

Congratulations!

Updated OP with final wiring diagram...

Hey John thanks for all the info this is very similar to what I was thinking.

Do you have any pics of the system or the build?

Cheers

Still need to install the element and finish the wiring. I plan on doing that this weekend. Once done, I will post pics.

John

Got my control box finished...

Installed the Spa Panel...

Just performed my first dry run. To my surprise, everything worked on the first shot!

I am running an auto-tune on the PID right now @ 170F. Pics to come later...

John

I know I have been slacking. A few people have PM'd me asking for more details. I plan on taking some pics tonight and starting a new thread which details all of the components (kettle, control box, pump, etc.) with a parts list the best I can remember.

Stay tuned...

John

I am looking at doing a build very similar to this. But, my access to a 240V is kind of limited without pulling out the stove and wiring there. So in the mean time I am planning on running off a 120V GFI protected socket. (This should be fine, since for now I am only doing 2.5 gallons.) However, I would like to plan for the future and have everything wired up so that I can use 240 in the future and just have to swap out the element.

My question is can I wire up my control panel according to the diagram below, using a 120V, 2000W element. The SSR and contractor would be 240V, so when I do want to move to 240 I can just run the second hot line to contractor.

(Edit: Sorry for the hijack.)

I think you would be fine but please do not take my word for it. Let's wait for P-J to chime in.

John

Official build thread here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/my-official-e-biab-build-thread-269164/

voltin said:

I am looking at doing a build very similar to this. But, my access to a 240V is kind of limited without pulling out the stove and wiring there. So in the mean time I am planning on running off a 120V GFI protected socket. (This should be fine, since for now I am only doing 2.5 gallons.) However, I would like to plan for the future and have everything wired up so that I can use 240 in the future and just have to swap out the element.

My question is can I wire up my control panel according to the diagram below, using a 120V, 2000W element. The SSR and contractor would be 240V, so when I do want to move to 240 I can just run the second hot line to contractor.

(Edit: Sorry for the hijack.)

Click to expand...

johnodon said:

I think you would be fine but please do not my word for it. Let's wait for P-J to chime in.

John

Click to expand...

Yes it can be done that way without issue.

I realize this is an old thread, but many people will use it as a reference for new systems.

One important point to be aware of on this circuit. If you are running in PID control mode (i.e. the contactor is closed) and turn off the heating element using the using the PID controller (I am guessing it probably has a manual on/off button) then the wire to the element that does not go through the SSR is still live and touching it and anything grounded (possibly your brew kettle, brew stand frame, controller box, etc) will provide a path for current and provide yet another way to test you GFCI...

To prevent this, add a second SSR in series with the other contactor input, and wired to the same controls as the first.

I would put two indicator lights on the heater side of the contactor. One from each output to neutral. With on SSR, the non SSR side would glow continuously while power is applied while the one on the SSR side would go on and off with the heating element.

why not replace the contactor with a manual DP switch? still has the issue above, but "should" be cheaper.

P-J said:

John,

You have it right with your last illustration.

Here is an updated drawing for you.
(As always, click on the image for a full scale diagram printable on Tabloid paper 11" x 17")



P-J

Click to expand...

frieed said:

I realize this is an old thread, but many people will use it as a reference for new systems.

One important point to be aware of on this circuit. If you are running in PID control mode (i.e. the contactor is closed) and turn off the heating element using the using the PID controller (I am guessing it probably has a manual on/off button) then the wire to the element that does not go through the SSR is still live and touching it and anything grounded (possibly your brew kettle, brew stand frame, controller box, etc) will provide a path for current and provide yet another way to test you GFCI...

To prevent this, add a second SSR in series with the other contactor input, and wired to the same controls as the first.

I would put two indicator lights on the heater side of the contactor. One from each output to neutral. With on SSR, the non SSR side would glow continuously while power is applied while the one on the SSR side would go on and off with the heating element.

why not replace the contactor with a manual DP switch? still has the issue above, but "should" be cheaper.

Click to expand...

Umm I am confused isn't that the point of the illuminated switch number 1 and the contactor? Of course I am nothing close to an electrician.

ShakerD said:

Umm I am confused isn't that the point of the illuminated switch number 1 and the contactor? Of course I am nothing close to an electrician.

Click to expand...

That is it exactly.

Another point:

frieed said:

and turn off the heating element using the using the PID controller (I am guessing it probably has a manual on/off button) then the wire to the element that does not go through the SSR is still live and touching it and anything grounded will provide a path for current

Click to expand...

You should never be messing with the wiring inside the controller unless it is unplugged - i.e. totally powered down & disabled. With the controller properly built and enclosed there is no issue.

I want to do something similar to this but without the illuminated switches in order to cut costs. Two questions:

1. Using non illuminated switches doesn't change the wiring diagram, right?
2. What type of switch do you recommend?

Thanks!

seatbelt123 said:

I want to do something similar to this but without the illuminated switches in order to cut costs. Two questions:

1. Using non illuminated switches doesn't change the wiring diagram, right?
2. What type of switch do you recommend?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

Switch #1 would be this: www.grainger.com - NKK-Toggle-Switch-2TPF6 - DPST
With the use of this high amp switch the contactor can be eliminated as both phases of the 240V are switched on or off.
The illuminated switches do not have the current carrying capability for the element and a contactor must be used in that situation.

Switch #2 & #3 would be this: www.grainger.com - POWER-FIRST-Toggle-Switch-2VLN5 - SPST

I hope this helps you and - BTW - if you have problems figuring out the diagram change, please let me know.

P-J

P-J said:

Switch #1 would be this: www.grainger.com - NKK-Toggle-Switch-2TPF6 - DPST
With the use of this high amp switch the contactor can be eliminated as both phases of the 240V are switched on or off.
The illuminated switches do not have the current carrying capability for the element and a contactor must be used in that situation.

Switch #2 & #3 would be this: www.grainger.com - POWER-FIRST-Toggle-Switch-2VLN5 - SPST

I hope this helps you and - BTW - if you have problems figuring out the diagram change, please let me know.

P-J

Click to expand...

Nice! Thanks for the quick reply. I think I can figure out the diagram. This will definitely reduce the cost of the build.

seatbelt123 said:

Nice! Thanks for the quick reply. I think I can figure out the diagram. This will definitely reduce the cost of the build.

Click to expand...

You are more than welcome. I hope your build goes well.

P-J

This thread is perfect for me! Thanks to the OP, the posters, and most of all P-J you ROCK!

Hey PJ. Can you re-post the original diagram? It will not display for me. Thanks!