What's up with Belgian beers?

I love Belgian beers, but half of Belgian-style beers taste like garbage to me. It seems like a lot of American brewers think a tripel should taste like banana or rubbery esters. Victory golden monkey and New Belgian tripel are terrible, IMO, and don't taste anything like what a good tripel (Cinq cents, Allagash tripel) should taste like. Why is this? Does anyone like these beers?

Also, what's up with the high cost? There's nothing inherently difficult or costly in making them. I can make a dubbel or tripel for under 20 bucks, using washed yeast. That's cheaper than a pale ale.

I do not like New Belgium's dubbel, but have not tried their tripel.

Are you making your own dark candied sugar for your Dubbel? I need to try that, it is expensive to buy it at the LHBS.

One of the few common threads running through all the various Belgian styles is a very characterful yeast. Different strains turn out a very different product, and when you combine that with the myriad grainbills and fermentation schedules that can be used, there are a lot of vastly different flavors to contend with. It's not surprising you don't like them all. I know I certainly don't.

If you haven't done it already, try some beers from Ommegang, Unibroue, and Jolly Pumpkin. They're a few of the North American breweries doing these styles that I find to have a pretty consistent product range. Their prices are also much more reasonable. The cost is one reason I've been getting into brewing these myself in the past year or so.

GuldTuborg said:

One of the few common threads running through all the various Belgian styles is a very characterful yeast. Different strains turn out a very different product, and when you combine that with the myriad grainbills and fermentation schedules that can be used, there are a lot of vastly different flavors to contend with. It's not surprising you don't like them all. I know I certainly don't.

If you haven't done it already, try some beers from Ommegang, Unibroue, and Jolly Pumpkin. They're a few of the North American breweries doing these styles that I find to have a pretty consistent product range. Their prices are also much more reasonable. The cost is one reason I've been getting into brewing these myself in the past year or so.

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I brewed up a belgian batch, then realized I have FIVE FULL GALLONS of it. That's a lot for me and SWMBO to handle of that style, lol.

GuldTuborg said:

If you haven't done it already, try some beers from Ommegang, Unibroue, and Jolly Pumpkin. They're a few of the North American breweries doing these styles that I find to have a pretty consistent product range. Their prices are also much more reasonable. The cost is one reason I've been getting into brewing these myself in the past year or so.

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I had a Unibroue Blanche de Chambly (well, two actually) last week. They were VERY good.

bovineblitz said:

I brewed up a belgian batch, then realized I have FIVE FULL GALLONS of it. That's a lot for me and SWMBO to handle of that style, lol.

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Lucky for you, it only gets better with age.

bovineblitz said:

I brewed up a belgian batch, then realized I have FIVE FULL GALLONS of it. That's a lot for me and SWMBO to handle of that style, lol.

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What style? If you're looking for someone to help you polish that off, just let me know. I'll PM you my address.

New Belgium tripel is crap. I agree with you on that one. I had a Anderson Valley Tripel a few months ago and thought the same thing. It was really sweet and I didn't like it at all. I do think there are breweries that do a good job of doing Belgian style beers. Unfortunately, not all breweries do good Belgians.

Can't stand New Belgium, especially their Belgian style ales. Bleh.

I like the New Belgium Abbey Ale and Tripel. They are definatly on the sweet side but I like the low hop and malty flavor. I recently had Ommegang that I liked and I have a Westmalle Tripel that I am waiting to try.
The thing about "Belgian" beer is that every brew is unique.

Pearlsnappro said:

The thing about "Belgian" beer is that every brew is unique.

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Yeah, but if you taste Allagash tripel and Chimay Cinq Cents side by side they taste similar. Same with Allagash dubbel and Chimay Red. Not identical by any means, the differences are remarkable enough that you can probably guess the grain bill differences. However, they seem to fit a style.

Also I've got a second dubbel using the same recipe fermenting right now, and I'm betting it will taste the same as the first. I had a few goals when brewing it: 1. Dark fruity flavor 2. Smooth, malty taste 3. No banana or funkiness 4. Easy to drink

So I made this:

10 lbs belgian pils
2 lbs munich
.5 lb special B
.5 lb amber candi
.5 lb table sugar
WLP500 fermented at 64, ramp to 68

I got exactly what I wanted. To me, this is a dubbel. I'm going to try using aromatic, a touch of chocolate malt, or caramunich in future iterations but I am perfectly happy with this beer the way it is.

if you're in dc you should be able to get some flying fish, they make some delicious belgians, especially exit 4 in my opinion (i might be biased, it's inspired by my home town and all)

I keep trying to get into Belgian beers but I just can't get there. I haven't done the Chimay yet but Duval and many of the others I've tried are just too sweet. All I can taste is honey.

I keep thinking that my palette will eventually acquire the taste but no luck so far.

Ravenshead said:

I keep trying to get into Belgian beers but I just can't get there. I haven't done the Chimay yet but Duval and many of the others I've tried are just too sweet. All I can taste is honey.

I keep thinking that my palette will eventually acquire the taste but no luck so far.

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Duvel, sweet? Terrible, yes, but definitely not sweet. Chimay Red and Cinq Cents might make you reconsider.

Also, I will check out Flying Fish, thanks for the heads up.

Belgian beers really vary. I'm not sure why you say many Belgian-style beers taste like banana or are rubbery. Actually I find most of the Belgian-style beers that aren't from Belgium weak and lacking in flavor and aroma.

I tend to prefer the darker Belgians (dubbels and quads) to the tripels and there are a few good American ones. Ommegang Abbey Ale and Three Philosophers, Pretty Things Baby Tree, and Schlafly Quadrupel are a few of my favorites. They can't compare to those coming from Belgium, though, namely Rochefort 10, Westvleteren 12, and De Struise Pannepot. Those are beers with wonderful complex aromas and flavors that no American Belgian-style beer can come close to approximating.

Belgians are expensive for a homebrewer to make:
1) You need a Belgian yeast. This means using a liquid yeast from wyeast or white labs unless you are using safbrew T-58.
2) They are generally strong beers and strong beers mean more malt and therefore a higher cost.
3) Belgian candi syrup must be imported from Belgium. There are presently no American producers, and no, you can not make it yourself. It can get rather expensive ($6/lb). You can't make the best Belgian-style beers without it and I think that is a big reason why the American belgian-style beers are so generally so poor.

As for why commercial Belgian-style beers are expensive it's because they are a specialty beer, generally are more difficult to make, and are usually aged and may contain additional ingredients such as fruit or spices (dried plums in Baby Tree, spices in Pannepot, Kriek in Three Philosophers).

I'm actually a fan of New Belgium's Trippel. It's definitely not fantastic or anything but I thought it went down pretty easily. Tasted malty with pear and honey..maybe a little vanilla. I still like Chimay's better.

gio said:

Belgian beers really vary. I'm not sure why you say many Belgian-style beers taste like banana or are rubbery. Actually I find most of the Belgian-style beers that aren't from Belgium weak and lacking in flavor and aroma.

I tend to prefer the darker Belgians (dubbels and quads) to the tripels and there are a few good American ones. Ommegang Abbey Ale and Three Philosophers, Pretty Things Baby Tree, and Schlafly Quadrupel are a few of my favorites. They can't compare to those coming from Belgium, though, namely Rochefort 10, Westvleteren 12, and De Struise Pannepot. Those are beers with wonderful complex aromas and flavors that no American Belgian-style beer can come close to approximating.

Belgians are expensive for a homebrewer to make:
1) You need a Belgian yeast. This means using a liquid yeast from wyeast or white labs unless you are using safbrew T-58.
2) They are generally strong beers and strong beers mean more malt and therefore a higher cost.
3) Belgian candi syrup must be imported from Belgium. There are presently no American producers, and no, you can not make it yourself. It can get rather expensive ($6/lb). You can't make the best Belgian-style beers without it and I think that is a big reason why the American belgian-style beers are so generally so poor.

As for why commercial Belgian-style beers are expensive it's because they are a specialty beer, generally are more difficult to make, and are usually aged and may contain additional ingredients such as fruit or spices (dried plums in Baby Tree, spices in Pannepot, Kriek in Three Philosophers).

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There is nothing mysterious or magical about Belgium so that anyone can't make as good a beer or better. My dubbel kicks the **** out of any commercial dubbel I've ever had. Not trying to brag, any well-made homebrew will beat out mass-produced beer that may or may not have sat on a shelf, a hot truck, or in the sun for God knows how long. Also Allagash makes beers on par with any Trappist I've ever had.

I've never used candi syrup, but I personally doubt that it is essential to brewing a good dubbel. I'm pretty sure Chimay uses straight table sugar. I use rocks just for color and on the off-chance they might add a little extra flavor. I know Allagash uses rocks, too. You can get all the flavors you need from munich and crystal malts, plus yeast. Not saying candi syrup isn't good, just that you don't have to use it.

I also don't think spices are necessary, let alone preferable in a Belgian. I can't really see anything about the process that warrants the extra cost, besides the quality of the product, which is good enough reason I suppose. All the more reason to brew it at home. In a certain sense, I've got over a grand of beer in my pipeline, if you consider that Belgian beers usually cost around 4-5 bucks for a 12 oz bottle.

Does Allagash use a wit yeast in their tripel? I love their tripel and made a tripel using the same yeast, but I was told it's a wit yeast.

I have only tried a force carbed New Belgium Tripel. To my tastes, it wasn't anything special, kind of bland really.

I was considering trying it again once I was sure the batches made from June to November are long gone (when they were not bottle conditioning). Granted, NB's Tripel would've probably tasted better had I not tried it after trying Chimay, Westmalle, Rochefort and Affligem.

Last time I was in the liquor store that sells Abbey and Tripel, the Abbey looked like it might've been bottle conditioned, but I did not try it.

I do really like NB beer, especially Ranger, Mighty Arrow, 1554, and sometimes even Fat Tire.

I agree with the OP, absolutely no reason for the higher cost of American born "Belgians" other then the fact that they sell at that price. I think it tends to be because the style(s) are looked at similar to how wine is regarded by society. Silly really. If its a huge beer thats different, but very often they aren't.

US versions of Belgian beers tend to be big beers. They are no more expensive than other big beers.

rexbanner said:

There is nothing mysterious or magical about Belgium so that anyone can't make as good a beer or better. My dubbel kicks the **** out of any commercial dubbel I've ever had. Not trying to brag, any well-made homebrew will beat out mass-produced beer that may or may not have sat on a shelf, a hot truck, or in the sun for God knows how long. Also Allagash makes beers on par with any Trappist I've ever had.

I've never used candi syrup, but I personally doubt that it is essential to brewing a good dubbel. I'm pretty sure Chimay uses straight table sugar. I use rocks just for color and on the off-chance they might add a little extra flavor. I know Allagash uses rocks, too. You can get all the flavors you need from munich and crystal malts, plus yeast. Not saying candi syrup isn't good, just that you don't have to use it.

I also don't think spices are necessary, let alone preferable in a Belgian. I can't really see anything about the process that warrants the extra cost, besides the quality of the product, which is good enough reason I suppose. All the more reason to brew it at home. In a certain sense, I've got over a grand of beer in my pipeline, if you consider that Belgian beers usually cost around 4-5 bucks for a 12 oz bottle.

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I disagree. Allagash Four (a quad) is decent enough but is not as good as the best of the authentic Belgians.
Chimay is crap, though. I don't like any of their beers. They are the most commercial of all the Trappist beers and it definitely shows.

You can get some good flavors from crystal malts but you can't get the same flavors as you can get with authentic candi syrup. You don't have to use it to make a good beer and most American brews don't but most Belgians do and I think that is one of the major differences. I happen to prefer the beers that use it over the ones that don't. The rocks are basically the same as table sugar and don't add anything more to the beer other than a little color. Candi syrup is made with a different process that alters the flavor of the sugar.

You definitely don't need spices or fruit for that matter. I was just pointing out that some Belgians do use them and it works to raise the price. I think the price most comes from the fact you are paying for quality, unique, specialty beers. When you compare them with the cost of a decent bottle of wine, they are really not that expensive at all. It's one good motivation to making them at home and is one of the reasons why I make them, but I also find they are some of the hardest beers to clone.

I was just at one of our local beer distributors and was looking at all the different Belgians and US clones. I was actually surprised at the selection. The average prices were from around $102/case to around $160. Needless to say that gave me a different perspective on my last brew which was a Tripel, and cost me around $65 in ingredients for about 2 cases. I still like the case of Chimay Grand Reserve the SWMBO got me for my birthday last year. That still goes down smooth.

beerloaf

beerloaf said:

I was just at one of our local beer distributors and was looking at all the different Belgians and US clones. I was actually surprised at the selection. The average prices were from around $102/case to around $160. Needless to say that gave me a different perspective on my last brew which was a Tripel, and cost me around $65 in ingredients for about 2 cases. I still like the case of Chimay Grand Reserve the SWMBO got me for my birthday last year. That still goes down smooth.

beerloaf

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That's a pretty nice wife. How'd you rack up $65 on a tripel? I can do an AG one for about 30 if I use washed yeast.

What might happen if I used briess pilsner instead of Belgian for a tripel? It's 1 SRM vs. 2. Briess is considerably cheaper. I want a light colored tripel anyways.

Speaking of candi syrup, I used dark candi syrup in a dubbel last October, bottled half the batch and left rest to age in carboy.

To my surprise, 6 months later my carboy came back to life with small yeast colonies appearing on the surface and a little airlock action. I presume the yeast is just now chewing its way through the dark candi syrup.

I hadn't been real thrilled with my bottles early on, guess cause I bottled it way too soon. Opened one last night and sure enough its improving, just wish I had aged the entire batch longer, oh well lesson learned.

BTW, have to agree with you on NB trippel and dubbel, not impressed at all, in fact I swear the last trippel I had suffered from major DMS.

I love Belgian beer but I must say that most American versions are not very good IMO. The exception is Unibroue - I have yet to have a bad beer from them. For the real thing -

Karmeleit - try it in the fancy glass somewhere - it just taste better that way.
Gulden Drak - just plain awesome
Delerium Tremens - OK to good but for some reason it is always ridiculously over priced like $10 a glass. I would much rather have Karmeliet.

I have a Belgian blonde recipe that I've made a few times now with substituting regular corn sugar for the Belgian candi sugar and side by side, I can't taste a difference. I was turned on to this trick by a BJCP Grand poobah at the local homebrew club.

rexbanner said:

There is nothing mysterious or magical about Belgium so that anyone can't make as good a beer or better. My dubbel kicks the **** out of any commercial dubbel I've ever had. Not trying to brag, any well-made homebrew will beat out mass-produced beer that may or may not have sat on a shelf, a hot truck, or in the sun for God knows how long. Also Allagash makes beers on par with any Trappist I've ever had.

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May I say take a trip and sample some fresh beer and say that your homebrew is better. Allagash is as good as the Trappist? wow what have you been smoking, just how many of the Trappist beers have you had?

rexbanner said:

I've never used candi syrup, but I personally doubt that it is essential to brewing a good dubbel. I'm pretty sure Chimay uses straight table sugar. I use rocks just for color and on the off-chance they might add a little extra flavor. I know Allagash uses rocks, too. You can get all the flavors you need from munich and crystal malts, plus yeast. Not saying candi syrup isn't good, just that you don't have to use it.

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Dude your Ignorance is outstanding

rexbanner said:

I also don't think spices are necessary, let alone preferable in a Belgian.

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So why do they use spices???

rexbanner said:

T
What might happen if I used briess pilsner instead of Belgian for a tripel?

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Yep, your bashing Belgian beers and yet don't understand what the grains bring to the beer....

pjk49202 said:

New Belgium tripel is crap. I agree with you on that one. I had a Anderson Valley Tripel a few months ago and thought the same thing. It was really sweet and I didn't like it at all. I do think there are breweries that do a good job of doing Belgian style beers. Unfortunately, not all breweries do good Belgians.

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Never had a New Belgium tripel so I can't say much but I did have a Green Flash tripel last week and I'll tell you what...it tasted like SH$&! Way too malty, way to sweet, and little yeast character. It made me wonder who at the brewery decided it was a good rendition of the style as I see no way any sensory tasters were used...awful!

coming soon...to a fridge near you!

Whoa, crystal malts? Don't touch my Belgian recipes with any crystal malt unless you're talking Special B. I also find it extremely difficult to believe one can replicate the flavor of Belgian sugars with crystal and Munich...

coming soon...to a fridge near you!

I find the problem with the American versions of Belgian beers (German too) is that they seem to think that of course having MORE of the characteristic flavors is better. In America, bigger is better - NOT! American brewers seem to want to out-Belgian each other leading to a flavor arms race. The result is a beer with some similarities to the Belgian versions, but ultimately very different. Some folks love these beers, but if you are looking to remember what you had on your trip to Europe, your best bet is to go back to Europe - or brew it yourself - or be lucky enough to find a brewery that has resisted the arms race.

Houblon,

Before you get all high and mighty, may I suggest that you read up on belgian styles.

1. With the possible exception of lambics and the like that benefit from a delicate balance between the indigenous yeasts/bacteria, there is no reason that an equally good or superior belgian style beer can't be made at home. You may prefer those that come from belgian, but that is only your opinion. An opinion, I suspect, that has resulted from the fact that you've never brewed a high quality belgian or that you like to buy expensive beer in the store. Personally, I've brewed belgians that were preferred by my friends and family when tried in a blind test next to some of the best examples of that style. I'm not saying I'm awesome. I'm just saying it is possible to make them at home.

2. I agree that sugar is needed in many belgian styles such as tripel. However, the crystallized stuff they sell to us in the homebrew store is not what the belgians traditionally used. According to Randy Mosher in Radical Brewing, the sugar syrups traditionally used are not commercially available (I actually think they may be now), but can be made on the stovetop from white sugar and water. I know you disagree, but Randy is a pretty smart guy who has spent a lot of time researching all of this.

3. Spices are not required in the vast majority of belgian styles - at least as described by the BJCP. I don't argue that the BJCP is the end all, be all descriptor for belgian beers, but they have done a pretty good job of classifying the major styles. When it is appropriate (only in witbier, saison, specialty) they should not be the dominant characteristic and should only support the yeast and malt character.

EDIT: I should clarify that I have been to Belgium and have tried many beers there.

I think there are actually quite a few North American Belgian-style ales worth comparing to the Belgian counterparts, although I haven't had anything from out west.
Unibroue
Ommegang (Abbey Ale in particular, though it's a bit bubbly)
Allagash (although I think their Wit and Dubbel are inferior, the Tripel is nice and they have quite a few special brews at a pretty penny I have yet to try, plus they're from my home state)
Pretty Things (their "Saison Americain" style for Jack D'or would be a good new American style for anyone)
Goose Island (Matilda, Pere Jacques, and Sofie are all good)
Brooklyn Brewery (Local 1 and Local 2)

Allagash started when all craft beers in Maine were British pub-style ales using Ringwood yeast. Their Wit was considered a more sophisticated beer, and was made in the more wealthy area of the state. They've managed to compete with wine with their high-end stuff. So their prices are kind of average compared to wine.

chicagobrew said:

An opinion, I suspect, that has resulted from the fact that you've never brewed a high quality belgian or that you like to buy expensive beer in the store.

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Shakes head, guess you don't know me too well. :cross:

Buy beer? the last locally bought beer was a 6pk of Bigfoot, Hoptimum, Hopslam, Sam Adams Latitude 48, Noble Pils and thats all of last year. I really don't buy commercial beer except for Belgian beer sunday, beer brought back from Belgium. That would be roughly 2 cases of singles(every trip/twice per/yr), going for a variety of different beers to sample.

Last sunday it was nice bottle of Malmedy Blanche, from Brasserie de Bellevaux. So yeah I have a very good grasp of Belgian beers, spent alot of time & money learning about those beers.



Since 2007(start of many Belgian beer trips) I brew a 70/30 ratio with Belgian beers the leader. Ever try my Houblon clone? gone over very well with alot of other HBrewers over the years.

Sample of last yr`s brew log>
http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=5190.msg61010#msg61010

chicagobrew said:

However, the crystallized stuff they sell to us in the homebrew store is not what the belgians traditionally used. According to Randy Mosher in Radical Brewing, the sugar syrups traditionally used are not commercially available

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No kidding, please tell me more Please read "BLAM" about the "candi sugar"

Oh and your wrong about the syrups not being available, again "BLAM"

http://www.brouwland.com/shop/catproducts.asp?cfid=4&id=346&pid=342

or another company
http://www.candico.be/index2.htm
http://www.belgosuc.be/
other market names>
Primesuc - Siromix S75 - Siromix B12 - Belgogluc HM70

chicagobrew said:

3. Spices are not required in the vast majority of belgian styles - at least as described by the BJCP.

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They use spices in more beers than you know, just because you can't tell doesn't mean theres no spices in the beer. Pales/blonds/dubbles/triples,quads and thats not even getting into the saison family of beers.

My intention isn't to get into a pissing contest with you, houblon. If you prefer the beer you bring back from Belgium, by all means drink it. I was making the point that in almost all cases there is no reason that equally good or better beer can't be made here. There is nothing magical happening in Belgium that can't be replicated here.

You conveniently left out the fact that I do think there are some authentic candi sugars available here. Actually, I have a pound of it in my store room, but it is not the crystals they sell at my well-stocked LHBS. I find it ironic that what you have posted as a "BLAM" (whatever that response is supposed to mean) are all retailers in Belgium. Again, the purpose of my post was to highlight that none of this is mystical, magical, or beyond the reaches of us mere homebrewing mortals. Candi sugar can be made at home, or at least so thinks Randy Mosher.

I'll take your word on the spice additions. You would know better than me, I suppose. Of course there are some people spicing things like a tripel, dubbel, quad, etc. There are people doing all kinds of crazy things to beer these days in an effort to make a product that stands out. However, spice additions are not traditional in these styles and the most classic examples can be made without spice. It's sort of off topic, but I find it puzzling that brewers are adding spices that we can't taste. Why bother? And, how can you tell?

Well, enough of this. As I said previously, I'm not here to pick a fight. It's not my style. I just had to say something because I feel you were being rude and condescending.

Houblon said:

May I say take a trip and sample some fresh beer and say that your homebrew is better. Allagash is as good as the Trappist? wow what have you been smoking, just how many of the Trappist beers have you had?




Dude your Ignorance is outstanding




So why do they use spices???





Yep, your bashing Belgian beers and yet don't understand what the grains bring to the beer....

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Wow. Go **** yourself, *******.

Impressive Houblon! For some reason I couldn't see the pictures, but I can assure you that I was drooling over what my mind was imagining!

BLAM = Brew Like A Monk.

Anyone that has any interest in brewing Belgian beers should have this book.

chicagobrew said:

My intention isn't to get into a pissing contest with you, houblon.

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Good fair enough

chicagobrew said:

I find it ironic that what you have posted as a "BLAM" (whatever that response is supposed to mean) are all retailers in Belgium.

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The fact you don't know about BLAM says alot, just saying.

http://www.brewlikeamonk.com/?p=88
Also one link was to a Dutch company,Brouwland.

chicagobrew said:

However, spice additions are not traditional in these styles and the most classic examples can be made without spice.

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Wrong again they have been adding spices long before we were born, its a long standing tradition. Rochefort has spice added....

chicagobrew said:

I just had to say something because I feel you were being rude and condescending.

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Yes I was being rude and condescending to the OP, as his hubristic tone pissed me off.

Houblon said:

The fact you don't know what BLAM is says alot, just saying.

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I own this book and had no idea what the hell you were talking about. You were being rude, somebody called you out, move on. i'm unsubscribed now but you two just blew the hell out of my inbox

Belgian, Dutch, whatever. Funny how Brouwland's webpage lists their corporate HQ in Belgium.

I, too, will unsubscribe now and move on.