Funky taste with extract, gone with all-grain

I've been brewing for almost a year, and have produced about 10 extract batches in that time. Despite filtering my water, using good sanitation techniques (StarSan), controlling fermentation temperatures, and every other good process step I could think of, my beers have had a solvent-like "sharp" flavor and odor that hangs over the entire flavor profile of the beer. I was starting to get discouraged about continuing in the hobby - I just wasn't enjoying the results. And from reading the lists of off-flavors in beer, nothing really matched what I was tasting. The closest was either chlorophenols, or "medicinal".

I did my first all-grain batch over the Christmas holiday. It was an amber ale. I used the same water, same sanitation process, everything. I have sampled the first few bottles from the batch and am blown away. It is excellent - malty, slightly hoppy, smooth all the way, and not a hint of the solvent-like odor or flavor. I'm excited about brewing again.

Here's the thing, though: Why the change? Is it typical to have extract batches turn out with such lower quality than AG batches? I was under the impression that extract made some darn good beer. Why didn't it in my case, and AG did?

Any thoughts?

I posted a couple weeks back about how my first 3 batches, which were partial grain, were all pretty solid beers. I then made 2 extract only batches, and each of them had these sort of off-flavors...a bitter quality that wasnt very appealing. I took it to be that the hops had overridden any flavor I may have had otherwise, which may be partially true, but I also find that the beers that were extract-only simply seemed thin and weak on flavor. The grains definitely give it a depth of flavor that you'd expect in a higher-quality beer (at least compared to extract-only!)

I am about to do a partial mash and am hoping to find the same as you...I dont see myself doing any more extract batches, they just dont seem to turn out the way I'd like, at least in my limited experience.

I believe what you're referring to is called 'Extract twang". Sometimes it's from carmelizing of extract, but some people swear it's just something about extract.

tre9er said:

I believe what you're referring to is called 'Extract twang". Sometimes it's from carmelizing of extract, but some people swear it's just something about extract.

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I thought extract twang early on, but most people describe it as a sweet or syrupy flavor. Does it also come in sharp or solvent-like varieties?

BPRjam said:

I've been brewing for almost a year, and have produced about 10 extract batches in that time.

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Extract only or partial mash?

BPRjam said:

I thought extract twang early on, but most people describe it as a sweet or syrupy flavor. Does it also come in sharp or solvent-like varieties?

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I'll defer here. I only made 1 extract and 1 partial mash batch before going BIAB and then 3-vessel. I just know my first beer was described to have the twang, but people said it "was still good"...being kind, no doubt.

Im interested in the brand of extract you used ? Also did you do a late addition boil with the extract or put it all in at the begining of the boil ? Full 5 gal boil ?

michael_mus said:

Extract only or partial mash?

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Extract only. I used LME kits from Midwest.

BxBrewer said:

Im interested in the brand of extract you used ? Also did you do a late addition boil with the extract or put it all in at the begining of the boil ? Full 5 gal boil ?

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I'm not 100% sure the brand. It is whatever came in the extract kits from Midwest. I also did a few from Austin Hombrew. Come to think of it, the ones from Austin were better, but only slightly.

The instructions said to put in all the extract at the beginning of the boil, so that's what I did. I need to find more information about a late addition, since I'm not sure what that is.

unionrdr said:

Ok,I found the solvent off flavor causes on this page; http://www.kroc.org/Links/TroubleshootingGuide.htm
CHARACTERISTICS: An acetone-like, laquer-thinner-like, pungent, acrid aroma which is followed up by a harsh, burning sensation on the tongue and possibly the back of the throat.

CHEMISTRY: Ethyl acetate in larger quantities (>33 ppm) is the primary cause, either by wild yeast or the yeast strain used. Other compounds may also be present.

HIGH LEVELS DUE TO PROCESS: Wild yeast contamination due to poor sanitation; high fermentation temperature; non-food grade plastic equipment in contact with the beer; open fermenter, especially after high kraeusen subsides; excessive oxygenation of the wort before pitching; oxygen in secondary fermenter.

LOW LEVELS DUE TO PROCESS: Good sanitization of equipment; only food-grade plastic used; cooler fermentation temperatures; proper wort oxygenation; closed fermenter.
So it's basically your process that produces it in large quantities. Basically yeast abuse.

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I have seen this before, and thought the same thing. However, a couple of things don't quite mesh with what I'm experiencing. 1.) My temps are well controlled in the basement where I ferment. For most of my brews, the temperature range is from 65-70 during the entire primary (I log the temps in analog, so I know exactly the variation). Some were a bit lower. 2.) I used a brew bucket. Then I went to a better bottle. Both of those are food grade, and I have the same off-flavor problem. 3.) I don't do secondary. 4.) I don't believe oxygenation prior to primary was the problem because I only oxygenate with a sanitized whisk for about 30-45 seconds before pitching the yeast. I'm usually concerned I haven't oxygenated enough.

Now, the wild yeast thing had me concerned, but the reality is that my process is pretty standard. I use oxyclean to clean, and I rinse thoroughly. I make a fresh batch of Starsan every time, and shake the fermenter like crazy. Foam is everywhere in the fermenter. This sits for an hour while I brew, then I pour off the excess Starsan and pitch the wort on top. It *MIGHT* be my process, but I don't think it is. I know it's hard to prove to people on the internet. I don't think it's process, unless I'm missing something that's not mentioned in "How to Brew".

For the record, I believe my off flavor is somewhere in-between the "cholrophenol" and "medicinal" description found here:
http://morebeer.com/public/pdf/off_flavor.pdf

BPRjam said:

Extract only. I used LME kits from Midwest.

I'm not 100% sure the brand. It is whatever came in the extract kits from Midwest. I also did a few from Austin Hombrew. Come to think of it, the ones from Austin were better, but only slightly.

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Well shoot, props for skipping partial mash and getting right into AG. I can imagine that was a costly step up.

Midwest is a funny place, I like their website and they seem to have good prices but I've heard some negative feedback on their ingredients before.

I'm blessed to live a few blocks from Brewsupply.com's brick and mortar store, but would definitely go Austin if I ordered online for any reason.

Anyway, if you feel up to it - You should write up your transition story sometime. I'd be interested in hearing how you took the plunge.

michael_mus said:

Anyway, if you feel up to it - You should write up your transition story sometime. I'd be interested in hearing how you took the plunge.

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Huh - I didn't think it would be interesting. I'll definitely do that sometime. It was actually a pretty easy and affordable transition, but I had to look out for sales/bargains to make it that way.

Did you replace your water filter at some point?

BPRjam said:

Huh - I didn't think it would be interesting. I'll definitely do that sometime. It was actually a pretty easy and affordable transition, but I had to look out for sales/bargains to make it that way.

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Eh, I could be making more of it than it is but I guess I don't know what I don't know.

I'm new, but every time I think I understand what All Grain brewing is about, I see some scary looking setup that throws me off. Seems very complicated and equipment heavy.

I'd like to try my hand at all grain, but I don't have a clue where to start.

But anyway.

I use midwest kits, and I haven't experienced that taste you are referring to yet. So far all of my beer has been pretty tasty, but no one drinks it but me, and I have a Neanderthal's pallet. I never can pick out the subtle flavors that most people talk about with anything. Cigars, beer, wine. You name it. I'm either really unobservant or have a handicapped tounge.

Most people will tell you once they go all grain, that they should have done it sooner...reading these forums sometimes makes it sound harder than it really is. U soak crushed grain at 150 degrees for one hour to convert the grains starches into sugar...then u rinse the grain to get the sugar out....it really can be that simple.

I believe extract twang is definately the best guess...its what drove me to all grain. The lighter the beer, the more pronounced the flavor.

bobbrewedit said:

U soak crushed grain at 150 degrees for one hour to convert the grains starches into sugar...then u rinse the grain to get the sugar out....it really can be that simple.

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Sorry if I'm threadjacking but let me get this straight.

Partial Mash:

Near-boil a gallon of water, steep some grains.
Boil the rest of your water, melt in LME.
Strain in the gallon you steeped to make a full boil.
Boil for an hour, adding hops by schedule.

VS

All grain:

Steep all grain for an hour in __ gallons near boiling water.
Strain out the grains and boil for another hour, adding hops by schedule.



That simple?

bobbrewedit said:

Most people will tell you once they go all grain, that they should have done it sooner....

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I second this. It's not as hard as it seems, it's just more ways that, if done improperly, could give you even more off flavors... but I think the benefits can outweigh the risks.

A lot of places (MoreBeer, AHS, for example) hold classes for around $20 where you get to watch an all-grain batch being brewed and ask questions, etc. That's what I did before doing my first all-grain batch, and it helped a lot with confidence in what I was doing. An alternative is to help someone with their all-grain batch, for free!

Regarding the off flavor... maybe the yeast are being stressed from being under-pitched?

michael_mus said:

Sorry if I'm threadjacking but let me get this straight.

Partial Mash:

Near-boil a gallon of water, steep some grains.
Boil the rest of your water, melt in LME.
Strain in the gallon you steeped to make a full boil.
Boil for an hour, adding hops by schedule.

VS

All grain:

Steep all grain for an hour in __ gallons near boiling water.
Strain out the grains and boil for another hour, adding hops by schedule.



That simple?

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I wouldn't call it near-boiling water... you don't want it to get above about 158F for that hour of steeping. After that the hottest the grains should get is 170, and after the grains are either strained or wort is drained off, THEN boiling like normal.

michael_mus said:

Sorry if I'm threadjacking but let me get this straight.

Partial Mash:

Near-boil a gallon of water, steep some grains.
Boil the rest of your water, melt in LME.
Strain in the gallon you steeped to make a full boil.
Boil for an hour, adding hops by schedule.

VS

All grain:

Steep all grain for an hour in __ gallons near boiling water.
Strain out the grains and boil for another hour, adding hops by schedule.

That simple?

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Almost! By near boil u must mean 150 degrees. The normal range is between 145 and 155. The normal water to grain ratio is 1.25 quarts per pound of grain. So if you have 12 pounds of grain you will mash (what u called steep) using 3.5 or so gallons of water. Lots if people now are using big nylon bags to "strain" the grain. The main upgrade u need is a big kettle, or brew a smaller batch. I use a 10 gallon kettle to brew 5 gallon batches.

I should add that you rinse the grain, or sparge to get up to your boil volume after you are done mashing

The best thing you can do is try it. Keep 6 lbs of DME on hand in case your gravity ends up too low, you can add it to hit your number.

This just occurred to me, but I've read on here of people having extract batches stop at 1.02ish quite a few times. A lot of that seems to have been chalked up to an extract thing. Could it be that there is something, in the extract process, from grain to wort to extract to wort, that has an effect on chemistry, enough that it becomes harder for yeast to digest? Therefore, if everything isn't perfect, you start to stress the yeast enough to put off flavors in the beer, stop fermenting before they should, etc.?

I am by far not a chemist, nor anything other than a beginning home brewer, but it seems this is so common, ther has to be something to it. Freshness I'm sure plays a big part as well, but maybe the true shelf life is a lot less than people think.

Really, it's easier to explain in person while doing it... just fly out here and we will brew a batch! I'm doing one Sunday.

Brewsit said:

Really, it's easier to explain in person while doing it... just fly out here and we will brew a batch! I'm doing one Sunday.

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I'm blown away by your simple description already. Really puts 2 + 2 together in a lot of ways.

Seriously, can't thank you enough for clearing that up.

You're absolutely right, I say near-boil and mean 150.

So these Igloo gatorade "mash tun" I keep seeing - Those are the equivalent of my 8 quart pot I'm using now to steep the grains in?

Clonefan94 said:

This just occurred to me, but I've read on here of people having extract batches stop at 1.02ish quite a few times. A lot of that seems to have been chalked up to an extract thing. Could it be that there is something, in the extract process, from grain to wort to extract to wort, that has an effect on chemistry, enough that it becomes harder for yeast to digest? Therefore, if everything isn't perfect, you start to stress the yeast enough to put off flavors in the beer, stop fermenting before they should, etc.?

I am by far not a chemist, nor anything other than a beginning home brewer, but it seems this is so common, ther has to be something to it. Freshness I'm sure plays a big part as well, but maybe the true shelf life is a lot less than people think.

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Think of the difference between all-grain and extract like this: Using the same recipe for (insert delicous dish here), for all-grain, you use fresh, never frozen, raw meat, and for an extract, you use frozen pre-cooked/seasoned cuts.

By using the raw ingredients, you can control a lot more variables (seasonings used, freshness, doneness of the meat), but you might screw it up completely if you don't follow the recipe very well. Using the frozen cuts, you can get a similar product a lot quicker, less effort, and less room for failure (overseasoning, etc), but you can't control much of the process.

You get a meal out of both, but each has its benefits and drawbacks.

Clonefan94 said:

This just occurred to me, but I've read on here of people having extract batches stop at 1.02ish quite a few times. A lot of that seems to have been chalked up to an extract thing. Could it be that there is something, in the extract process, from grain to wort to extract to wort, that has an effect on chemistry, enough that it becomes harder for yeast to digest? Therefore, if everything isn't perfect, you start to stress the yeast enough to put off flavors in the beer, stop fermenting before they should, etc.?

I am by far not a chemist, nor anything other than a beginning home brewer, but it seems this is so common, ther has to be something to it. Freshness I'm sure plays a big part as well, but maybe the true shelf life is a lot less than people think.

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I think i know what it is. Im doing a brew day today "going to take pics and post my process on here". Once i'm done and post i will fill in why i think this happens.

michael_mus said:

I'm blown away by your simple description already. Really puts 2 + 2 together in a lot of ways.

Seriously, can't thank you enough for clearing that up.

You're absolutely right, I say near-boil and mean 150.

So these Igloo gatorade "mash tun" I keep seeing - Those are the equivalent of my 8 quart pot I'm using now to steep the grains in?

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For sure! And yes, the Igloo is a popular way to make a mash tun. You should read some of the stickies for all-grain, there's a ton of great info. There's also a ton of threads for all-grain setups, to give you an idea of what you might want to build for yourself. The choices are infinite!

unionrdr said:

Your anology fits kit-n-kilo beers more accurately. but when you start mixing & matching extracts,hops,etc they can be much better indeed. so that statement isn't 100% accurate.

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You're right, thanks for the caveat.

Brewsit said:

For sure! And yes, the Igloo is a popular way to make a mash tun. You should read some of the stickies for all-grain, there's a ton of great info. There's also a ton of threads for all-grain setups, to give you an idea of what you might want to build for yourself. The choices are infinite!

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Thanks. Believe it or not, I think I've read every sticky on this site twice and they all seem to have a pre-requisite of knowing the "basics" - Something I was missing in the all grain area.

I'll keep on reading and I appreciate the help! Good luck on the brewing this weekend!

BPRjam said:

Extract only. I used LME kits from Midwest.




I'm not 100% sure the brand. It is whatever came in the extract kits from Midwest. I also did a few from Austin Hombrew. Come to think of it, the ones from Austin were better, but only slightly.

The instructions said to put in all the extract at the beginning of the boil, so that's what I did. I need to find more information about a late addition, since I'm not sure what that is.

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My guess is you scorched the wort/extract. I did this once too when i started. Late addition is where you only add 1/4 of the malt extract after steeping your specialty grains. You add the rest at flame out "or close to flame out".

After using Northern,Midwest and AHS as well as my LHBS the one thing they all do is add the color and flavor to the malt "one or the other or both". Briess is good for doing this. Since switching over to using ultralight malt and using the specialty grains for the color and flavor. My extract brews have dramatically improved.

Brewsit said:

Think of the difference between all-grain and extract like this: Using the same recipe for (insert delicous dish here), for all-grain, you use fresh, never frozen, raw meat, and for an extract, you use frozen pre-cooked/seasoned cuts.

By using the raw ingredients, you can control a lot more variables (seasonings used, freshness, doneness of the meat), but you might screw it up completely if you don't follow the recipe very well. Using the frozen cuts, you can get a similar product a lot quicker, less effort, and less room for failure (overseasoning, etc), but you can't control much of the process.

You get a meal out of both, but each has its benefits and drawbacks.

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Yeah, I get that part of it. Still though, it seems something else is going on with the extract. If it were just the same as using AG wort, why would there be the issues I've read of fermentation stopping at 20? Even when I took extra care towards the end of my extract days, it wasn't rare to be a few points over on FG. I was just posing a question of something I hadn't heard about (newish to the board, could have been discussed a thousand times.) If I myself had to pinpoint it, I would call it more of an age issue with the extract. Almost like the difference between a great fresh loaf of bread and one that's sat for a week. Almost "Stale" in a way.

I actually brewed quite a few extract brews (well, quite a few for a guy who recently started brewing) where I really didn't notice that "Twang", but there were some that it was definitely there and more than likely had to do with old ingredients.

michael_mus said:

I'm new, but every time I think I understand what All Grain brewing is about, I see some scary looking setup that throws me off. Seems very complicated and equipment heavy.

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The other commenters have given you good advice - it really is pretty easy. One of the videos that caused me to go ahead and take the plunge was this one. I don't do it exactly this way, but it really gives you the gist of how easy it is.


I also took pictures during my first all-grain. You can see the album here if you're interested. Going AG takes a lot more time, but it's leisurely time. Pour the hot water over the grain, wait an hour, drain, sparge, boil.
http://imgur.com/a/4jeHu

BPRjam said:

The other commenters have given you good advice - it really is pretty easy. One of the videos that caused me to go ahead and take the plunge was this one. I don't do it exactly this way, but it really gives you the gist of how easy it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMHLqnWCNjE

I also took pictures during my first all-grain. You can see the album here if you're interested. Going AG takes a lot more time, but it's leisurely time. Pour the hot water over the grain, wait an hour, drain, sparge, boil.
http://imgur.com/a/4jeHu

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Nailed it. THIS is the kind of stuff I understand. Thanks!

Brewsit said:

Think of the difference between all-grain and extract like this: Using the same recipe for (insert delicous dish here), for all-grain, you use fresh, never frozen, raw meat, and for an extract, you use frozen pre-cooked/seasoned cuts.

By using the raw ingredients, you can control a lot more variables (seasonings used, freshness, doneness of the meat), but you might screw it up completely if you don't follow the recipe very well. Using the frozen cuts, you can get a similar product a lot quicker, less effort, and less room for failure (overseasoning, etc), but you can't control much of the process.

You get a meal out of both, but each has its benefits and drawbacks.

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This is close to the truth. Its a common misconception to treat extract like honey, leave it at room temp, cook the hell outta it in the boil and expect it to taste like wort outta the tun. Not gonna happen.

You really can make fantastic extract brews without the twang.

Like you said, its cooked already. You dont cook a steak or lobster twice, why do that to the wort? Extract is basically concentrated wort. Fully cooked. Heat and serve. Like a fine ham. Buy from a major distributor. Add the cold packs, dont be cheap here. Refrigerate the extract like you would a 1/2 gallon of milk. The massive qty of extract flying outta midwest, Austin or NB means just by nature its fresh when shipped. And dont cook your steak, lobster or ham twice!!! Heat and serve only. Add near flameout just long enough to insure sanitation (I bring the temp back to over 180 and kill the heat and crash it immediately.).

I went from extract, to pm, to a three tier, and now mostly biab. I like the control while not freezing my azz off in the winter. But I got three extracts for xmas. refrigerated the extracts. The people who gave them to me gave me gc's for the yeast value, and I ordered them as needed. I have three good brews in the fermenters now, and I know they wont be twangy or have off flavors because I did not abuse the LME, but treated it like the delicate liquid it is.

I just finished my second brew and cracked the first bottle tonight. I did a chinook IPA and drank it alog side a commercial IPA... The flavor is way off, not as bad as my first beer but still that twang... I couldn't figure out how to explain it but now I think I know.
Does anyone have experience just using DME instead of LME...? The taste I'm getting is just not what I want and I know my sanitation and process are good. I was hoping for better beer than I got but will continue on with the kits I have and probably start to BIAB after that... I'm just turned off by extract right now...

twbalding said:

I just finished my second brew and cracked the first bottle tonight. I did a chinook IPA and drank it alog side a commercial IPA... The flavor is way off, not as bad as my first beer but still that twang... I couldn't figure out how to explain it but now I think I know.
Does anyone have experience just using DME instead of LME...? The taste I'm getting is just not what I want and I know my sanitation and process are good. I was hoping for better beer than I got but will continue on with the kits I have and probably start to BIAB after that... I'm just turned off by extract right now...

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If I may ask... how do you know your process was good if this was only your second batch. Your second batch isn't going to be able to match a commercial brew that the brewers for that commercial brew have been doing for years. Have some patience and soon enough you'll be making better and better brews. I'm on my fifth extract brew and I just bottled it today and it tasted great. My first couple tasted like crap. All I am saying is give it time and your form and style will prevail.

twbalding said:

I just finished my second brew and cracked the first bottle tonight. I did a chinook IPA and drank it alog side a commercial IPA... The flavor is way off, not as bad as my first beer but still that twang... I couldn't figure out how to explain it but now I think I know.
Does anyone have experience just using DME instead of LME...? The taste I'm getting is just not what I want and I know my sanitation and process are good. I was hoping for better beer than I got but will continue on with the kits I have and probably start to BIAB after that... I'm just turned off by extract right now...

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Funny u bring up LME vs DME. I always believed it was more noticeable using LME, but didn't have enough experience with extract to mention it. I would recommend using DME with 75% of it added near the end of the boil and see what you think.