Frustrated. Need some encouragement...

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JeffoC6

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Hey guys. I've been brewing (1-gallon AG batches) since January 2012. I started out like a house-a-fire and was brewing every weekend. It was exciting and I had dreams of making word class beer (or at least damn good beer) every weekend and wow'ing my friends and family. By about May, I realized that I was having inconsistent carbonation issues, which brought my aspirations down a bit until I was able to figure out where I was going wrong. After I moved from batch priming to bottle priming (using a syringe), I was confident that I could dream big again, and achieve my goal of making amazing beer. Then in/around August, I realized that I was having some tannin issues due to a thin mash (most likely) and my water. So with the help of Yooper, I started brewing with distilled water and some calcium chloride and adjusted my mash so it wasn't so thin. I was excited again that I had finally found the last problem keeping me from making great beer. With my new processes underway, I set out to brew an Oktoberfest, Pumpkin Ale, a Bells Two Hearted Clone, a Porter, and an India Brown Ale. I was incredibly excited (and nervous) when I cracked my first Oktoberfest. When I had my first taste, I sensed that malty goodness with perfect carbonation and no astringent/tannin off flavors. All of my processes had worked, right?...Then I cracked another a few days later...It had a sour, almost vegetabley taste. Then I opened my Pumpkin Ale, which had been conditioning for several weeks. The smell was amazing! Pumpkin Pie! The taste, not so much. It finished sweet and sour on the sides of my tongue and had that same veggie slick feel at the end. The Bells Two Hearted? No tannins and no astringent off flavors, and great carbonation...But slick mouthfeel and more veggie.

I'm really at my wits end. I've gone from being amped up to brew every weekend to having not brewed in about 4 weeks. I think to myself, what's the point? I want to make really good beer, but after brewing for 9 months, all I've made is beer that I can barely choke down. In the 20'some (1-gallon) batches I've made, I haven't had one where I've said to myself...DAMN, this is GOOD! What am I doing wrong? I'm about to give up and really could use some encouragement :(

I'm willing and able to answer any/all questions about my processes, as I'm quite meticulous in keeping crack of things.

Please help...I want to keep going with this hobby, but every time I try to make adjustments that I think will work (and then wait roughly 7 weeks to see if it worked), another issues pops up.

Frustrated.
 
Can you explain your process? Mash setup, water additions, sanitation regime, fermentation temps and times, bottling steps, and bottle aging temps and times.

Unfortunately, your latest issue sounds like it could be an infection issue, but I can't be sure. If it is, it is a relatively simple fix - replace all your plastic parts used post boil and ramp up your use of star san.
 
Can you explain your process? Mash setup, water additions, sanitation regime, fermentation temps and times, bottling steps, and bottle aging temps and times.

Unfortunately, your latest issue sounds like it could be an infection issue, but I can't be sure. If it is, it is a relatively simple fix - replace all your plastic parts used post boil and ramp up your use of star san.

In addition to this information I would like to know what testing samples taste like.
 
Can you explain your process? Mash setup, water additions, sanitation regime, fermentation temps and times, bottling steps, and bottle aging temps and times.

Unfortunately, your latest issue sounds like it could be an infection issue, but I can't be sure. If it is, it is a relatively simple fix - replace all your plastic parts used post boil and ramp up your use of star san.

My mash setup is a 3 gallon stainless steel stock pot and another regular non-stick smaller stock pot (I'd say 1 1/2 gallons). I calculate how much distilled water I'll need (compensating the water lost to the boil off and grains) and then put it all in my 3 gallon pot and add the calculated amount of calcium chloride. I stir to make sure the calcium chloride dissolves in the distilled water, and then I take out about 1/4 gallon of that water and put it in the other pot, cover, and set it aside. I heat the remaining water in my 3 gallon stock pot to my strike temp, add my bag (I do BIAB) and my grains, and stir like a madman until I reach my mash temp. I cover and wrap in a sleeping bag for 1 hour. After 1 hour, I bring the mash temp up to 165 while stirring constantly. Once I hit 165, I cut the heat and cover again and let sit 10 minutes. In the meantime, I heat the remaining water in my other pot to 165. After 10 minutes, I pull my bag, and dunk sparge in the remaining water, rinsing the grains completely. Then I put my bag in a colander and rest it over the 3 gallon stock pot and pour the (dunk sparged) water back through the grains, into my 3 gallon kettle. Then I squeeze the bag dry. I then achieve my boil and move forward with my recipe.

My sanitation is as follows: I buy a gallon of distilled water. I've noticed that 1 gallon plastic cartons are sometimes MORE than a gallon, so I actually measure it out in a measuring cup, so I'm assured that I'm using exactly 1 gallon of distilled water. To that, I add just under 1 1/2 teaspoons of StarSan (most of the time I'll just use exactly 1 1/2 teaspoons). I'll shake it up and it gets nice and foamy. While I'm boiling, I take all of my equipment that I'll be using and put it in a glass casserole dish that can fit everything. I pour the StarSan mixture into the casserole dish and cover my equipment in it, letting it soak for approx 20 minutes prior to using it. I also fill up a little spray bottle with some of the StarSan mixture so I can spray things down that haven't been completely submerged in StarSan.

My fermentation temps and times: I have a fermentation chamber that I set for the middle range of the yeast that I'm using. If the yeast strain says it works best from 60-70, I'll set it at 64, and it remains constant for approx 2 weeks or so, and then I'll normally have a new batch I have to put in the chamber, so I'll take the prior batch out and let it sit at room temp for the final week or so. Oftentimes, this final week at room temperature has also been when I dry hop. As I said in my initial post, when I was brewing once a week, I wouldn't have enough room for 3 batches in my fermentation chamber, so the 1st batch would be moved out (after having 2 full weeks at constant temps) and then left to sit the 3rd week at room temp. I let all of my beers sit on the yeast for 3 weeks minimum. Depending on my OG, I'll let the beer sit in bottles at a minimum of 3 weeks. If it's an average OG, I'll take one and put it in the fridge for 2 days before I try it. If it's a high OG (like my Pumpkin Ale was), I'll let it condition for 4 1/2-5 weeks before trying one. I made a Belgian Christmas Ale back in July that I still haven't touched because I know it needs a LOT of time.

My bottling steps are as follows: As soon as I drink a beer with a bottle that I could use, I rinse the bottle out several times with hot water, then I fill the bottle with hot water and just let it hang out overnight. The next day, I'll rinse it out again and store it upside down in a box that has designated slots for bottles. When it comes time to bottle, I'll take my bottles and put them in my sink, that has been filled up with about 3 gallons of hot water and 3 tablespoons of B-Brite, which I stir into the water until dissolved. I let the bottles soak in this water for about 1 hour, and then I'll rinse them thoroughly with cold water, and put them upside down in a 6 pack holder that has paper towels lined on the bottom, so they can drain/dry. I then boil my measured amount of priming sugar (I use tastybrew's calculated) in a tiny amount of water. I boil for about 45 seconds or so. I then pour that sugar water into a measuring cup that I have a pre-measured line drawn onto because that's how much priming sugar solution I need to bottle prime 9 bottles with a consistent amount of priming sugar water in each. After using a sanitized funnel to put a little StarSan water in each bottle, I'll shake the bottle up and then dump it out. I then add the cooled priming sugar water to each bottle, adding the same amount to each. I have my caps sitting in StarSan and after I add the priming sugar water, I rest the caps on the bottles.

I then rack from my primary to another sanitized 1-gallon jug. I then rack from that jug to my bottles. I'm always sure to check to see how much actual beer I have, and then adjust my priming sugar measurements to that (1-gallon to start is not 1-gallon after a 3 week primary and racking).

I then put the bottles in a 70 degree room for 3 weeks minimum, and proceed as I outlined above.
 
In addition to this information I would like to know what testing samples taste like.

When I take my hydrometer readings, my samples taste pretty awesome, albeit, sometimes a little hot (alcohol). I do, very slowly and steadily against the side of the glass, pour my samples back.

When I bottle, I always have a bit of beer leftover. The sample usually tastes really awesome as well. However, I've noticed that in a few of my Bells Two Hearted clones, and a Dogfish Head 60 minute clone, that the sample almost tasted salty. Please note that I didn't start using calcium chloride until a few brewdays after these batches. So it wouldn't have been accounted for in these.

Most of the time though, my samples taste really really good, and then by the time I pour them into a glass some 5 weeks later, they change for the worse.
 
How are you washing and sanitizing your bottles? You said you had 1 octoberfest that was great, but another that was bad. I doubt that some "good beer" got into just that bottle.

If using a dishwasher, make sure there is no jetdry or the like in the machine. If your not sure, don't use it.

If using oxy or onestep...you need to rinse the HELL out of the bottles (at least 3 times with hot water) then use Star-san pre-bottling. The same is true for any of your transfer equipment.

Are you soaking the caps in star-san or vodka while you fill the bottles? Some people overlook this, and it's just as important as sanitizing your bottles.

I had some bottles soaking in oxy to give them a good cleaning, and my wife decided "help me" one day. I came home from work and she had them on my bottle tree. She had seen me do this a hundred times, so "great" I thought, I can get right to it and proceeded to bottle my Belgian. After a couple weeks I tried one and it was horrible. I asked my wife how long she rinsed the bottles, and she said " I thought you used no rinse sanitizer". :(Lesson learned..........
 
But slick mouthfeel and more veggie. Frustrated.

If I remember correctly, you posted about this same problem about two or three weeks ago, saying that your beer had a 'buttery - cabbage-like' flavor?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/buttery-cabbagey-362219/index2.html Those posts were made on Oct 21, 2012.

I had suggested that based on your information you have over pitched your yeast. BUT YOU NEVER CAME BACK TO YOUR OWN THREAD. I was actually going to PM you in a few weeks to see if adjusting your pitching rates were the solution to your problem.

So here it is again based on the information you provided for your pumpkin ale....

When I plug in: 1.078 OG; 1.0 Volume U.S. Gallon; 97% viability; into Mr. Malty, I get 53 Billion Yeast cells, or .6 of a vial or package needed without starter.

You said that you pitched 1 pack of wyeast 1968 London ESB yeast that contained 100 billion yeast cells. Therefore you overpitched by 2x the amount of yeast cells.

That is why you have a buttery, cabbage-like off flavor.

(Sorry for using caps, not yelling, I just haven't figured out how to bold on this forum:D)
 
If I remember correctly, you posted about this same problem about two or three weeks ago, saying that your beer had a 'buttery - cabbage-like' flavor?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/buttery-cabbagey-362219/index2.html Those posts were made on Oct 21, 2012.

I had suggested that based on your information you have over pitched your yeast. But you never came back to your own thread. I was actually going to PM you in a few weeks to see if adjusting your pitching rates were the solution to your problem.

So here it is again based on the information you provided for your pumpkin ale....

When I plug in: 1.078 OG; 1.0 Volume U.S. Gallon; 97% viability; into Mr. Malty, I get 53 Billion Yeast cells, or .6 of a vial or package needed without starter.

You said that you pitched 1 pack of wyeast 1968 London ESB yeast that contained 100 billion yeast cells. Therefore you overpitched by 2x the amount of yeast cells.

That is why you have a buttery, cabbage-like off flavor.

So you're saying that regardless of how many packs/smack packs that Mr. Malty tells me to pitch, I shouldn't pay attention to it, rather, I should simply pay attention to the actual number of cells?

Why do 99% of the threads on here say that's it's virtually impossible to overpitch yeast on our smaller (homebrew) scales then? See below...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/possible-over-pitch-yeast-79391/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/can-you-overpitch-yeast-333338/
 
So you're saying that regardless of how many packs/smack packs that Mr. Malty tells me to pitch, I shouldn't pay attention to it, rather, I should simply pay attention to the actual number of cells?

Why do 99% of the threads on here say that's it's virtually impossible to overpitch yeast on our smaller (homebrew) scales then? See below...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/possible-over-pitch-yeast-79391/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/can-you-overpitch-yeast-333338/

Not necessarily true. I admit that over-pitching is not as big of a problem as under pitching. This study (http://sciencebrewer.com/2012/03/02/pitching-rate-experiment-part-deux-results/) suggests that in a blind tasting of the same beer that has been deliberately controlled, over-pitched, and under-pitched, that the over-pitched beer comes out with a thin-bodied, low ester profile matching your description.
 
Problems bottle to bottle is a post fermentation problem- most likely. You said you pour hydrometer sample back into fermenter. That's probably not a wise idea- with your small batches, I would invest in a refractometer. Also, if beer tastes good before going into bottles, then you have random bottles go funky, I would really look there for your answer. I had an issue with the dishwasher cleaning method a few years ago with a Red Ale- never did that again! If you don't have a bottling jet washer, they are cheap and work great. One more thing- your syringe method of priming adds another point to infect a batch (even though it would seem all would be infected). Also remember that BIG beers don't carb up like other (smaller) beers. My barleywines have never had alot of carbonation... Even after years of aging. Good luck on finding the answer.... I know it's frustrating- been there. Don't try to over complicate it- Keep It Simple.
 
"Vegetal" and "cabbage" suggest to me DMS. How is your boil? How about the chilling? Any lid on during chilling?

"Slick" or "oily" is diacetyl. That could be from stressed yeast, but it also could be infection (usually pediococcus).
 
My sanitation is as follows: I buy a gallon of distilled water. I've noticed that 1 gallon plastic cartons are sometimes MORE than a gallon, so I actually measure it out in a measuring cup, so I'm assured that I'm using exactly 1 gallon of distilled water. To that, I add just under 1 1/2 teaspoons of StarSan (most of the time I'll just use exactly 1 1/2 teaspoons). I'll shake it up and it gets nice and foamy. While I'm boiling, I take all of my equipment that I'll be using and put it in a glass casserole dish that can fit everything. I pour the StarSan mixture into the casserole dish and cover my equipment in it, letting it soak for approx 20 minutes prior to using it. I also fill up a little spray bottle with some of the StarSan mixture so I can spray things down that haven't been completely submerged in StarSan.

Not sure if this is relevant to your issues but the above ratio caused me to run to the kitchen and check something: 1 teaspon is @ 1/4 oz of StarSan. StarSan is normally mixed at 1oz per 5 gallons water. 1 1/2 teaspoons is @ .375 oz of StarSan.....entirely too much for 1 gallon of water. Perhaps residual sanitizer is causing your off-flavor?

I know I'm grasping at straws here because it sounds like you are doing everything else correctly (assuming, as Yooper stated, you're not boiling with the lid on your kettle) but it's all I have to offer. Good luck.

---Todd
 
"Vegetal" and "cabbage" suggest to me DMS. How is your boil? How about the chilling? Any lid on during chilling?

"Slick" or "oily" is diacetyl. That could be from stressed yeast, but it also could be infection (usually pediococcus).

I have a rolling and aggressive boil. I chill to 70 degrees in about 10-12 minutes. I never have the lid on.
 
Not sure if this is relevant to your issues but the above ratio caused me to run to the kitchen and check something: 1 teaspon is @ 1/4 oz of StarSan. StarSan is normally mixed at 1oz per 5 gallons water. 1 1/2 teaspoons is @ .375 oz of StarSan.....entirely too much for 1 gallon of water. Perhaps residual sanitizer is causing your off-flavor?

I know I'm grasping at straws here because it sounds like you are doing everything else correctly (assuming, as Yooper stated, you're not boiling with the lid on your kettle) but it's all I have to offer. Good luck.

---Todd

I'm horrendous with math. How much StarSan should I be using in 1 gallon of distilled water then?
 
You also said you pour the hydrometer sample back into the beer? Do you sanitize the sample container before you use it? That seems like a perfect source for infection. I realize that in a 1 gallon batch of beer that sample is a lot, but I would never,ever consider tasting it and pouring the remainder back.
 
I use the lil measuring thing on the starsan bottle. Remove the main cap & squeeze the bottle to get the starsan concentrate 3/4 of the way up to the 1/4oz line. That's the right amount of starsan for 1 gallon of water. No need to use tsp's,since the measure is part of the bottle.
Matter of fact,it's the same bottle used for Stabil fuel stabilizer.
 
I think u should try to do simpler recipes until u find what your problem is. I don't think that you are overpitching your yeast, fermentation seems fine I think it's most likely your mash, conditioning or contamination. How clear are your beers? When I did my first pumpkin ale I realized that even with conditioning there was a lot of clouding that made my first 5 gallons taste much less like a beer and my 2nd 5 gallons with gelatin finings even though I used the same exact recipe.

Edit: after I looked through your process it seems u do everything correctly and sanitary. Idk what the problem could be.

I suggest u do simple recipes or maybe try extract brewing to simplify the process and u can narrow down what your problem is.
 
You also said you pour the hydrometer sample back into the beer? Do you sanitize the sample container before you use it? That seems like a perfect source for infection. I realize that in a 1 gallon batch of beer that sample is a lot, but I would never,ever consider tasting it and pouring the remainder back.

I sanitize everything, yea. I take my reading, then gently (against the side of the fermenter) pour the sample back. I leave about a tablespoon or so left, and I drink that right from the hydrometer tube. So no, there would be no way it could be infected based on that process.
 
I second the suggestion of trying a very plain recipe. Specifically, a SMaSH. If your SMaSH is clean and drinkable, your process is fine.

Here is an example of what I mean:

X lbs of a quality 2-row base malt to yield OG = 1.045-1.055
X grams of a noble hop to = 0.35 - 0.4 IBU/OG ratio (17-22 total IBUs)
a neutral yeast strain (e.g. WLP005 or similar)

Try hallertaur or similar as the hop, all in at 50 to 60 minutes of boil time. Two weeks in primary, two weeks in bottle. Final product should be a light clean blonde ale with nowhere for off flavors to hide. It shouldn't change much with age either.
 
I second the suggestion of trying a very plain recipe. Specifically, a SMaSH. If your SMaSH is clean and drinkable, your process is fine.

Here is an example of what I mean:

X lbs of a quality 2-row base malt to yield OG = 1.045-1.055
X grams of a noble hop to = 0.35 - 0.4 IBU/OG ratio (17-22 total IBUs)
a neutral yeast strain (e.g. WLP005 or similar)

Try hallertaur or similar as the hop, all in at 50 to 60 minutes of boil time. Two weeks in primary, two weeks in bottle. Final product should be a light clean blonde ale with nowhere for off flavors to hide. It shouldn't change much with age either.

Sounds like a plan. I like this idea. I will be brewing that maybe next week and will then keep revisit this thread with the results (in 5 weeks or so).
 
Also I heard you shouldn't squeeze your grain bag after mash because it can release tannins. Not sure if this is attributing anything to your off flavored but thought I'd mention it.
 
try not pouring your hydrometer samples back in... simply eliminates one variable that has a high probability of introducing problems
 
For the most part your process actually sound pretty good. Infections are a strange beast and if you indeed have one then I suggest again that you replace all plastic equipment, particularly hoses, nozzles and racking canes.

The only thing that jumps out to me as an issue is your use of distilled water and only calcium carbonate. Are you testing the pH o the mash? If you brew light-colored beers, it is likely that your mash pH is too high. Too high a mash pH will extract tannins from the grain. Also, your water/wort/beer is lacking other minerals necessary for healthy fermentation - like magnesium and zinc - and flavor compounds like sulfates.

I would suggest you try using some spring water (not distilled) and adding some calcium chloride AND some gypsum (calcium sulfate) or Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate).
 
For the most part your process actually sound pretty good. Infections are a strange beast and if you indeed have one then I suggest again that you replace all plastic equipment, particularly hoses, nozzles and racking canes.

The only thing that jumps out to me as an issue is your use of distilled water and only calcium carbonate. Are you testing the pH o the mash? If you brew light-colored beers, it is likely that your mash pH is too high. Too high a mash pH will extract tannins from the grain. Also, your water/wort/beer is lacking other minerals necessary for healthy fermentation - like magnesium and zinc - and flavor compounds like sulfates.

I would suggest you try using some spring water (not distilled) and adding some calcium chloride AND some gypsum (calcium sulfate) or Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate).

We've talked quite a bit about his water, and the distilled water with calcium chloride is something we discussed. It comes directly from the water primer, and should be adequate for this type of brewing. The bru'n water spreadsheet can better help predict the mash pH, but I would definitely NOT change to spring water (what's in it?) and never use epsom salt. Ever. Malt has plenty of magnesium, and it's never needed. It has a laxative effect in large amounts, and it simply doesn't taste good in beer.
 
Also I heard you shouldn't squeeze your grain bag after mash because it can release tannins. Not sure if this is attributing anything to your off flavored but thought I'd mention it.

Just FYI, appears to be a myth:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/squeezing-grain-bag-bad-175179/index2.html#post2029310

I squeeze the grain bag and nothing bad seems to happen, just get a little extra wort.

Looking forward to hearing how the SMaSH turns out. Those are the main reason I do 1-gallon batches - screening different hops to see which ones I like best.
 
I'm a beginner too. I originally tried a variety of different small batches, had lots of fun trying out mead, various sorts of beer and ale, cider and hard lemonade. But recently I have felt like going "back to basics".

Many guys at my homebrew club were using Maris Otter with great results, so I joined a local group buy and bought a 50 lb bag of Maris Otter. I am planning on trying SMaSH's with various hops and mash temps., etc. I'm also excited about trying a Graham Cracker Ale and Gingerbread Ale recipes from HBT for the holidays, but am simplifying them significantly so that I can still learn more about the Maris. IMHO, a simple well-executed recipe with the MO will provide a delicious beer that I can use for holiday presents and my own drinking. By simplifying things, I am hoping to slow myself down and understand better what I am doing.

I typically start my fermentations with about 3 gallons (I've been using both glass carboys and used water cooler jugs) and they end up at about 2.5 gallons once I rack from 1st to 2nd. I find that using an Igloo cooler (I have a 5 gallon one) makes things very simple, and have rigged up a little screen mesh thingie to serve as a false bottom until I decide to buy one.

Anyway, good luck and hope that my random thoughts provide encouragement rather than confusion etc.
 
I borrowed a copy of Gregory Noonan's "Brewing Lager Beer" from a friend, and in the troubleshooting section, if offered some possible new insight on this issue:

Bitter-Vegetable Taste: From deteriorated hops (oxidized B-acids).

What sort of hops are you using? How are you storing them? From your original post, is sounds like you've only had this problem in the last few months. Perhaps fresh hops are in order?
 

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