Options for sweet carbonated cider?

I've got so much info swirling around in my head now I getting confused about this topic.
Will you please let me know what my options are for serving a sweet carbonated cider?
The only thing that I'd rather not do is individually sweeten at serving.

CMcPherson said:

I've got so much info swirling around in my head now I getting confused about this topic.
Will you please let me know what my options are for serving a sweet carbonated cider?
The only thing that I'd rather not do is individually sweeten at serving.

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Intending to serve from a keg or from bottles?

Well... my long term plan is to serve sweet and sparkling from the keg except those times that I bottle a 12er from the keg for an evening on the town.
There will be some batches that I bottle from the get-go. And that, I think that I have a pretty good handle on.

Ferment the cider then kill the yeast then back sweeten to taste.

So, what's your question?

If you're serving from the keg, sweeten it to taste in the keg and plan on venting it as it might continue to ferment a bit even at serving temps.

If you're bottling right away, let it ferment out completely, then backsweeten and/or add sugar. A plastic bottle can be helpful to determine when the cider is carbonated, then you'll need to pasteurize the whole batch.

akthor said:

Ferment the cider then kill the yeast then back sweeten to taste.

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If kegging, sure, but not bottling

BGBC said:

So, what's your question?

If you're serving from the keg, sweeten it to taste in the keg and plan on venting it as it might continue to ferment a bit even at serving temps.

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I think that might be just what was binding me up.
I was wondering If I sweeten AND pressurize, won't the natural carbonation from the continued fermentation (brought on from sweetening) add to the pressure in the keg, thereby over carbonating my cider?
I don't see how I can verify the keg pressure if I have to account for natural carbonation too.
It will just eventually ferment out to dry again right?

I've been reading more on this.
I think that I'm understanding better now that cold crashing/racking then Sorbate before sweetening, along with very low serving temps will halt fermentation in my keg.
It all made sense to me when bottling and had the option of Pasteurizing

If you don't kill the yeast it will continue to ferment in the keg, which is slow and you might not notice if you drink it fast ish, if the keg sits for awhile it starts to taste not so good, this will be aserbated (sp?) If you sweeten it.

I've made about 15 kegs of hard cider using apple juice and notty yeast. I've experimented a lot, sweetening, adding cinnamon and spices. Killing off the yeast once it ferments to where you want it yielded the best results for me. Especially if the keg wasn't going to get drained quickly.

You can also I've read heat up the Cider to a certain temp and that kills the yeast. I never got around to trying it. I want to tho.

CMcPherson said:

I think that I'm understanding better now that cold crashing/racking then Sorbate before sweetening, along with very low serving temps will halt fermentation in my keg.
It all made sense to me when bottling and had the option of Pasteurizing

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Follow established protocols. Ferment dry, or damm close to it. Rack to secondary. Add oak or tannin if desired. Let the cider finish fermenting and clear, then rack again. If no more lees falls in 2 months it's ready for kegging. Rack to the keg on the recommended dose of K-Meta and sorbate. Wait 4 days. Sweeten, purge, chill, carbonate.

Yes, were talking about a 3 month process.

You can bottle from the keg without fear. No need to keep it all cold. The key element here is to let as much yeast drop out as possible before stabilizing.

Lots of cider has been done this way. It works.

Thanks all.
I know that I'm doing it the hard way and I may eventually decide it's not worth it.
Right now I'm really trying to learn how to reliably halt fermentation so that I can preserve the natural fruit sugars rather than adding cane sugar.
I'm going to fiddle with Keeving when I feel up to it.

CMcPherson said:

Thanks all.
I know that I'm doing it the hard way and I may eventually decide it's not worth it.
Right now I'm really trying to learn how to reliably halt fermentation so that I can preserve the natural fruit sugars rather than adding cane sugar.
I'm going to fiddle with Keeving when I feel up to it.

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With kegging, it's super easy- far easier than bottling.

When the cider is where you want it for a FG, rack it off of the lees and cold crash it. Wait a month or so, and rack into the keg. Keep it cold, and it won't ferment any more. This usually works quite well, but some yeast strains are more cold hardy than others.

With kegging, you don't have to worry about bottle bombs so it's much easier than bottling and attempting to heat pasteurize.

That's good to know that I'll have better luck kegging.
I'm experimenting with racking every 10 points, keeping it cold and hopefully having to drag it gasping for breath across the line at no less than 1.010.
That way, I hope to not even have to use Sorbate.
I have a jar of yeast nutrient that I don't plan on using anymore.

CMcPherson said:

...I'm experimenting with racking every 10 points, keeping it cold and hopefully having to drag it gasping for breath across the line at no less than 1.010...I have a jar of yeast nutrient that I don't plan on using anymore.

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Yeah, definitely ditch the yeast nutrient if you want to stop fermentation early. You want to start with nutrient deficient juice when trying to leave some residual natural sweetness (i.e.; keeving).

What yeast and what temps are you fermenting at? I wouldn't want to rack at every 10 points. That's 4 or 5 rackings and I don't like racking.

I have had good luck with Notty at 55 ish ambient temps. Starting with 1.060 juice (UV pasteurized from a local orchard with some turbinado sugar to bump the OG from 1.050 or 1.055). It starts off a bit quick and slows down naturally. Usually takes about 4 weeks to get to 1.012 ish and then I start the cold crash process.

There is yet another option to retaining the sugar/sweetness and all sorts of carbonation and not have any yeast issues:

Hit your desirable gravity and sweetness then filter it to remove the yeast. Yes, I opened the TROLL gate on this one but it works and works well. I have been working with a local winery to develop a method to get a good, refreshing apple-pop for the ladies and we have been talking with a few west coast commercial cider makers and while they will not give us any secrets, we have been pushed to filter by them all.

At home, I make my cider as usual but use a 5 gallon corny keg instead of a carboy and attach a spunding valve, change it to 7 psi and open the valve to crack open at 7-8 psi. I take samples (very small ones for the refractometer) to keep track of where I am at then sample it by tasting it once I hit my target gravity. The last batch was stopped at 1.020 and filtered under pressure to another corny keg.

I use a simple spun polyester nominal u1 filter in a 10" housing attached to tubing and two OUT quick releases (ball type for me) to transfer the cider to another corny keg. u1 nominal, polyester spun filters seem to provide the perfect pour size to catch yeast cells and as long as there are not a lot of debris in the bottom of the keg, the filter will not clog. I go very slow and take my time with the transfer, I also pre-whet the filter with StarSan so I dont get the cardboard flavor and I do a VERY quick CO2 purge of the filter assembly to help push some of the O2 out.

I would be happy to send you a bottle if you like.

This is interesting. I had thought that maybe cold crashing at the desired FG and force filtering might work. It's an experiment on my list of things to do.

Maylar said:

This is interesting. I had thought that maybe cold crashing at the desired FG and force filtering might work. It's an experiment on my list of things to do.

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Yes, it works quite well and NO additional chemicals.

Laredo.. I'm experimenting with Notty, WL English Cider and wild fermentation all at 60°.
I'm not crazy about racking either because I know I'm risking O2 and contaminants.
Keg to keg filtering sounds really interesting!
Firewalker, I am looking up what a spunding valve is now.
I would be delighted to accept a sampler! I'll message you my address.

Firewalker11 said:

At home, I make my cider as usual but use a 5 gallon corny keg instead of a carboy and attach a spunding valve, change it to 7 psi and open the valve to crack open at 7-8 psi.

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Okay... I think I get it now.
Since you are fermenting in a keg, your spunding valve is taking the place of an airlock correct?

Yupper! The spunding valve replaces the airlock. It is one way and keeps some CO2 in the keg, you determine how much with a twist of the regulator.