Dear every teacher I've ever had...

flyangler18 said:

Your entire tirade is meaningless until you actually ask your teacher for clarification about her intent in circling the word.

Click to expand...

How so? Meaningless to me? To her? To you? To anyone? Please, clarify and enlighten me as to how my opinions are meaningless without an explanation from a 3rd party as to what their doodles mean.

Lol, ok, that was funny. I was ranting and didn't have firefox spellcheck at work.

BTW, BierMuncher wins the thread.

Circling a word and placing question marks next to it is not meaningless doodles. It is a generally accepted method of copy-editing notation. If you are confused as to why your paper was marked that way, go and ask the teacher, it is not the teacher's responsibility to write a novel about why they don't like your word choice. Maybe it's just me, but the onus for learning is on you, not the teacher, if you are confused about something, question it.

If it's not meaningless, what does it mean? Not "What can it mean?", what does it mean in this instance? A novel is not required to convey this. A few words would generally suffice. It is not my responsibility to "go ask for clarification."

As stated, my job is to learn. I do not feel that probing the depths of this particular teacher's ignorance on this particular matter is required to that end.

Her job is to teach. Part of that is communicating. In this instance, with this act, she failed. I do not care what her rationale is. I do not care what anyone has convinced themselves of in doing likewise. It is a fundamentally lazy and arrogant act.

You can poop on my pie all you want, but don't call it ice cream and expect me to eat it.

One final thought and then I'm done with this thread- are you planning on asking her what she meant and actually move beyond this 'failure to communicate' (my nod to the late Paul Newman)- or are you more content to rant about it on an internet forum?

If your job is to learn, you need to question- plain and simple.

Best of luck in your studies.

The failure to communicate with her is my choice. It serves no purpose. Ranting on here, however, does serve a purpose. By going off on the macro issue of this common, ignorant act, I spare myself from leveling the same tirade at the teacher in question.

MrNate said:

The real exercise is doing your job. Mine is to learn. Yours is to teach.

Click to expand...

You seem to think that the only way to teach is to spoon feed students the information. I agree with flyangler18 when he says "[t]he real exercise is critical thinking."

A4J said:

You seem to think that the only way to teach is to spoon feed students the information. I agree with flyangler18 when he says "[t]he real exercise is critical thinking."

Click to expand...

You are incorrect in your assesment. I think the correct way to communicate is by adequately expressing your thoughts in such a way as to be readily understood.

Abstract concepts require critical thinking.

Concrete concepts require direct and clear communication.

How did you learn multiplication tables? Spoon feeding?

You sound so certain that the only reason the word was circled was because the teacher didn't know what it meant. There are other possibilities as well; she/he questioned the reason you chose THAT word (again, we're lacking full context), or maybe you could have written the sentance more clearly... who knows without asking? What's it hurt to ask?

MrNate said:

How did you learn multiplication tables? Spoon feeding?

Click to expand...

Basic concepts require spoon feeding. Spoon feeding is only necessary at the grade school level.

And if you must know, I wasn't taught the multiplication table. I was taught how to multiply. Again, there's that whole notion of spoon feeding [memorizing the multiplication table] vs. critical thinking.

the_bird said:

You sound so certain that the only reason the word was circled was because the teacher didn't know what it meant. There are other possibilities as well; she/he questioned the reason you chose THAT word (again, we're lacking full context), or maybe you could have written the sentance more clearly... who knows without asking? What's it hurt to ask?

Click to expand...

I'm assuming that because she didn't say anything else about it. I recognize that there are other possibilities (though they are all incorrect in this case as well), but that of course brings me aaaallllll the way back around to my original point: What's it hurt to write down what you meant in the first damn place?

A4J said:

Basic concepts require spoon feeding. Spoon feeding is only necessary at the grade school level.

And if you must know, I wasn't taught the multiplication table. I was taught how to multiply. Again, there's that whole notion of spoon feeding [memorizing the multiplication table] vs. critical thinking.

Click to expand...

Please read my posts before commenting on them.

So, be the bigger person, dammit, and ask your freakin' professor!

They probably made an incorrect assessment that their intent would be obvious when they made the notation. Impossible to know without context, if I saw the whole paper I might pick up what they were getting at. Maybe the statement conflicts with something else you said elsewhere, who knows?

Think of it this way... how many students does this teacher have? How many teachers do you have? Be the bigger person and approach them after class.

the_bird said:

So, be the bigger person, dammit, and ask your freakin' professor!

They probably made an incorrect assessment that their intent would be obvious when they made the notation. Impossible to know without context, if I saw the whole paper I might pick up what they were getting at. Maybe the statement conflicts with something else you said elsewhere, who knows?

Think of it this way... how many students does this teacher have? How many teachers do you have? Be the bigger person and approach them after class.

Click to expand...

Why? To what end? To debate here is harmless. It costs me nothing. To debate there carries with it the possibility of retribution, and debate would be inevitable.

MrNate said:

Please read my posts before commenting on them.

Click to expand...

I did, but what do you mean by that statement? Did you just draw a red circle and put a question mark on my comment?

To say back to me in different words the very same thing I just posted tells me either you didn't read my post or you are trying to be a prick. I simply assumed the best of you.

Well, as an English teacher, I'll chime in here, even though you seem pretty defensive and only want to hear things that are agreeable with your position.

First, when I'm grading 150 essays over the weekend, I'll use the same technique you're complaining about. I balance that with margin notes and notes at the end of the paper with comments on the paper as a whole, but I do not have the time or the inclination to explain every mistake to students I teach. I do teach my students how to proofread and revise, though, in my experience they rarely do either.

Secondly, I want to respond to the sentence in question. I would mark this as well. It wouldn't be because I didn't understand the word, but because I do and I'm questioning your syntax and style. Hubris is a noun and you do use it as such in your sentence. However, that is about as far as I would consider the correctness of its use. Typically, hubris is something one is considered as being guilty of, not in possession of. Therefore, to misplace one's hubris suggests that there is an appropriate placement of hubris, which the definition of the word does not support.

I tend to be cocky, arrogant, and intolerant, no matter how misplaced my hubris may be.

Click to expand...

My suggested revision: I tend to be cocky, arrogant and intolerant, no matter how misguided such attitudes might be

Or, if you really want to use hubris: I have been known for my hubris, as I tend to be cocky, arrogant, and intolerant, no matter how misguided this may be.

Personally, I do not see this as something to be proud of, but whatever floats your boat. Good luck, Icarus.

..................

Thanks! I'm printing that off and putting it on my fridge.

Beards Brews said:

...you seem pretty defensive and only want to hear things that are agreeable with your position.

Click to expand...

Next time I voice an opinion, I'll not defend my position. Does that make more sense to you or less?

Beards Brews said:

First, when I'm grading 150 essays over the weekend, I'll use the same technique you're complaining about. I balance that with margin notes and notes at the end of the paper with comments on the paper as a whole, but I do not have the time or the inclination to explain every mistake to students I teach.

Click to expand...

Yeah, work is hard. Cutting corners is the way to go.

Beards Brews said:

Secondly, I want to respond to the sentence in question. I would mark this as well. It wouldn't be because I didn't understand the word, but because I do and I'm questioning your syntax and style. Hubris is a noun and you do use it as such in your sentence. However, that is about as far as I would consider the correctness of its use. Typically, hubris is something one is considered as being guilty of, not in possession of. Therefore, to misplace one's hubris suggests that there is an appropriate placement of hubris, which the definition of the word does not support.

Click to expand...

Thank you for your feedback. I respectfully disagree with the fundamental idea you have based it on, but at least it's feedback.

Beards Brews said:

Good luck, Icarus.

Click to expand...

Thanks, Onan.

MrNate said:

Thanks, Onan.

Click to expand...

Dude, Beards Brews has gone to the trouble of responding to you with clarity and in detail - exactly the sort of detail that you complain your teacher didn't provide - and you respond by insulting him. Regardless of the rightness or wrongness of either of your posts, IMHO that fact means you're being just a little bit of a ******. FWIW, I also think he makes some very sound points, which might merit a more considered response that the one you've given them.

Communication is a two way street. Ultimately if you are unsure of why the teacher is marking your paper the way she is, you should ask. Like-as-not, she thinks you understand why she marked it the way she did if you don't ask for clarification. Bad on her for assuming, but if you don't understand what she is trying to say it's on you to ask for clarification. There could be many students who have been scratching their heads wondering "what does she mean with a circle and question marks", who never thought to ask. Rather, they went on their way thinking it was the teacher's job to explain what she meant. She doesn't know her students are confused by what she's doing, but can't change what she's doing since she doesn't know.

As I often try to explain to my students, a major difference between high school and college is that in college the teacher is not going to tell you all of the answers. Critical thinking is key. The teacher facilitates, points the students in the right direction, etc., but as another poster stated, does not spoon feed information. Students need to figure out things for themselves to some extent. If they are unable to do so, see the professor before or after class - don't assume he/she is an imbecile because he/she wants you to connect some thoughts on your own.

Further, a question mark is pretty common shorthand for why did you use this word here. I certainly would not automatically translate it to "I don't know what this word means." Bottom line, talking to your professor would likely solve the issue.

MrNate said:

Maybe they could actually say what they're saying is my point, instead of being obtuse in attempting to communicate their opinion that I should communicate more clearly.

Click to expand...

After grading a few hundred or thousand papers most teacher start to use a shorthand form. The trick is to give the students the key to what the marks mean beforehand so they know what they mean.

I'm with those guys. Every English class I've ever taken involved going to visit with the professor, after receiving a paper back, to get the "full insight" into their comments. Not because I wanted to debate them -- but because I wanted to understand what they disliked about the choices I made and how to make better choices in word/syntax/structure, and how to convey myself most clearly.

My instructors always made it clear that it was a choice not to visit them for feedback, but that in the past, the ones who did take the time to visit with them tended to do better on both subsequent essays, and on examinations.

You seem to believe that you already write well enough, and shouldn't have to defend your writing choices to anybody else, so here's a kitty cat for you instead.





Dawwww. Look at the kitty.

The problem is not with the teachers, but with the amount of work that is expected of them. Let's be completely honest. Imagine you have a job where you put in at least 35-40 hours a week. During that time you are expected to work your butt off and have no time for any extra duties. You have five classes of 30 students. You collect an essay from all of them which gives you 150 essays in total.

To truly give the essays justice, you'd have to spend a minimum of 10-15 minutes with each one. Let's go with the lower number for the sake of argument. That gives you 1500 minutes of work above and beyond your full work week. That's an extra 25 hours of work. It is completely and utterly unrealistic to expect that a human being could put in that kind of extra time. Not to mention that this is just one of the assignments your teacher has collected from you. Add in all the other tests, quizzes, and assignments and the work load becomes totally staggering.

It sucks, but that's the reality. The only choice is to 'cut corners' as you put it, or find a more efficient way for the teacher to grade the work. The only solution is to give teachers less students and more time to grade work while on the clock. Sadly, this will never happen. Your only recourse is to go speak to the teacher.

Gentlemen,

I started this here thread. Them that came in to challenge my opinion did so of their own free will. Them that insulted me did likewise, and unprovoked at that. I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would come in, read what I wrote, challenge my opinion, insult me, and expect butterfly kisses in return.

You'ns are more than entitled to your opinions, including your opinion as to my level of *****ebaggery. However, stating those opinions in response to a thread I started and insulting me on top of it is hardly what I consider a favor to me, no matter how much effort and detail was put into it. You are more than welcome to voice your opinion in a public forum, but why on earth would you call me a troll for not giving a flying rat's a** about what you think? That's my GD prerogative.

People disagree. When I disagree with people, I state my reasons and present them in a well thought out and civil format. I don't waltz in, stick my nose in the air, and fling insults around like it was cool. Does that make me a better person than them that do? I believe it does. You may disagree.

I have no problem with anyone in here. I get a little testy, I argue, and in doing so you may not like my tone. Hell, you may decide that you don't like me. You might even choose to be clever and throw a thinly veiled insult my way. Fine. But don't make the mistake of thinking any of this is personal on my part. I just happen to believe my opinion is valid and can stand up to challenge, and fail to see why I should back down on that point. It's got nothing to do with you and me personally, it's just a matter of my opinion vs. your opinion. Well, up to the point of the ad hominem BS, anyway, which I could frankly do without. If you take my meaning, Gentlemen.

That being said, I am sorry if I came across as overly harsh, critical, sanctimonious, whatever. I was a little testy on Friday, and I hope no one got their feelings hurt. I mean it. With the exception of Beard's parting shot and my retort, I thought things were pretty civil. Apparently there was disagreement on that as well, for which I apologize.

Regardless, I stand by my opinion and I now know to voice any future opinions in the debate thread. That way everyone knows to expect an argument, and we can all disagree in relative peace and harmony. Fair enough? Cool. Thanks.

Here's the rub. If you take offense to being called Icarus, go look up hubris again and its history. You clearly admitted to this as a character trait, which Icarus also has. Don't admit to hubris and then get upset when the hubristic connections are made. You took it a step further and made an insulting comment back at me, which I was willing to ignore, that had nothing to do with the issue at hand. When you bring up your own faults, they are fair game for commentary. Don't pout and call names when that commentary doesn't jive with your self proclaimed cocky, arrogant and intolerant worldview.

Personally, I don't care what you think of me. I'm a big boy and if you don't like me, I couldn't possibly care any less. In the future, I am not inclined to offer you my time since you have, as you put it, engaged in *****baggery. I don't expect that to mean much to you, but at the same time I don't expect any of your time as well. You are right, your responses are your perogative. However, don't post some angry diatribe calling us on our responses and not expect the same in return. You certainly aren't an innocent here either.

If you take offense to being tied with Icarus, I am floored by the irony, but for what it worth I apologize.

I am a grad student -- I both teach and am taught. In both cases it's clear to me that learning is not passive, and that communication is reciprocal. Different people have different thought patterns and sometimes the two heads actually need to get together to figure out what's up, especially in a situation where time and/or space are premium and there is no formalized convention (clarifing conventions set up would require... additional communication, which the OP seems set against).

When you think about all the old parables and fables and stuff, the cocky guy always gets, well, shafted. They don't tell those stories for no reason -- a respectful and teachable attitude gets you way farther in life.

That said, my previous post on this thread was less than completely respectful. I guess someone just touched a nerve -- it happens but I can admit it and move on.

TheJadedDog said:

While it is entirely possible that the teacher was just lazy and didn't look up the word, I'd want to find out for sure by speaking to them.

Click to expand...

That is the key right there, go talk to the teacher. Find out what it is that they want, and give it to them. No matter what else you think about your writing, they are the one giving the grade, and if you want the best grade possible, you will write the way that they want you to.

Beards Brews said:

In the future, I am not inclined to offer you my time...

Click to expand...

Well, here's the rub. I was a bit out of line, so I hope you will accept my sincere apology and re-think this decision.

Despite what I may feel personally about your response, it was, I believe, well intentioned. And that is the last I will speak about my opinion of your response.

Beards Brews said:

If you take offense to being tied with Icarus, I am floored by the irony, but for what it worth I apologize.

Click to expand...

Irony can sometimes become so recursive that it reverts to simple fact, but for what it's worth I apologize as well and hope you will accept that as sincere.

Let's all be friends here. Or at a minimum, tolerant a**holes.

..........................

BierMuncher said:

..........................
View attachment 8031

Click to expand...

Eeeeeeeeeew!!

BierMuncher said:

..........................
View attachment 8031

Click to expand...

How do you manage to keep winning a thread you've already won?

Jester369 said:

Eeeeeeeeeew!!

Click to expand...

I didn't think we took any pictures up at your house?

the_bird said:

I didn't think we took any pictures up at your house?

Click to expand...

Damn hidden camera - forgot all about that thing! There was a lot of love that weekend