Brettanomyces and Orval

Howdy,

Ive been trying to do some research on Brettanomyces yeast and their use in beer. I have known that Lambic beers use it to provide its tart and sour flavor. I have learned how Brett can ferment other sugars that traditional brewers yeast cant, which provides a more dry beer and lower FG.

Are there any commercial examples, along the lines of Orval, of beers that use Brett yeast (either in secondary, bottle, or otherwise)? And the second part of my question, what characteristics does Orval need out of the Brett? With what Ive read Brett wouldnt provide much more to Orval (and Orval-like beers) other than continued fermentation. Lambic styles need not be mentioned.

Thanks for the clarification

The Brett in Orval adds a rustic flavor to the beer that you can't get with any regular yeast.

There are a number of beers now that use Brett. Ommegang Biere De Mars is one that comes to mind.

Any Jolly pumpkin. Rodenbach grand cur, etc.

Go on beer advocate and search for wild ale, Flemish red, etc

metal850 said:

Any Jolly pumpkin. Rodenbach grand cur, etc.

Go on beer advocate and search for wild ale, Flemish red, etc

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All those beers also have Pedio and Lacto, which gives them their sour characteristic which is not present in a beer with just Brett as a secondary yeast. They are a lot different.

Thanks for the help everybody. Im going to look for Biere De Mars to try and identify the 'rustic' flavor for me. Im aware of this description but have failed in identifying it.

brumer0 said:

Thanks for the help everybody. Im going to look for Biere De Mars to try and identify the 'rustic' flavor for me. Im aware of this description but have failed in identifying it.

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If you can find Green Flash, get a hold of Rayon Vert. Its similar, though not the same as, Orval. A winner if you want some funk.

I've had beers that were solely fermented with Brett. When young there was a little sharpness, but still clean.

Rustic is an interesting descriptor. I would have said barnyard/wet horse.

Crooked Stave in Fort Collins produces some excellent all-brett beers.

English Old Ales usually have brett in secondary.

ReverseApacheMaster said:

Crooked Stave in Fort Collins produces some excellent all-brett beers.

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I found that brewery online last week when I was looking. Being from Fort Collins, I was very proud of it. Sadly, I am no where near there now and dont have access to their beers. But, hmmmm, next time I visit...

the most recent zymurgy had a great article on cloning orval and their use brettanomyces - you should check it out

Goose Island is an example of an American brett beer with wide distribution. Try Jolly Pumpkin Bam Wheat, it's a brett hefeweizen that's delicious.
Brett is a lot more than just a yeast used to keep fermentation going, and since there are 3 primary varieties you can design a beer to fit whatever you're looking for. i absolutely love brett beers, there's always at least one on tap at my house.

adc123 said:

If you can find Green Flash, get a hold of Rayon Vert. Its similar, though not the same as, Orval. A winner if you want some funk.

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+1 This is a nice beer, had it over the weekend

for the second part - i believe they add the brett at bottling, and to my taste, orval really needs to age a while before you get a strong sense of it's contribution. Cellar some bottles for a year and then drink a fresh one- they are definitely different. Brett also contributes in different ways depending on if it is the primary and only yeast strain used, or added in the secondary on top of a sacc. In lambics, flemish sours, and even basque ciders, while brett is maybe the most notorius culprit of fermentation, there is quite an array of microbiology going on in the wood that the beverage is aged in and around, and that wood micro-environ is really what is responsible for the finished product.

www.boulevard.com/BoulevardBeers/saison-brett

Saison with Brett as a bottle conditioner. Tastes a lot better than their Tank7 brew it's based off of w/o Brett.

As for the barnyard/wet horse comments, I can't relate as I've never tasted either, but I can understand the "earthly" comments.

about 1/4 down the page is a list of brews with sacch + brett: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2010/06/harvesting-sour-beer-bottle-dregs.html

I just picked up a bottle of Mikkeller's "It's Alive". Going to try to culture some yeast out of it for a secondary on a lambic.

looneybomber said:

www.boulevard.com/BoulevardBeers/saison-brett

Saison with Brett as a bottle conditioner. Tastes a lot better than their Tank7 brew it's based off of w/o Brett.

As for the barnyard/wet horse comments, I can't relate as I've never tasted either, but I can understand the "earthly" comments.

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If you can't relate to the barnyard/wet horse comment then you haven't tasted enough Brett beers. "Rustic," I believe was the original comment, and that's a very nice way of putting it. The following quote is from Wyeast's description of Brett B.

"This strain of wild yeast was isolated from brewery cultures in the Brussels region of Belgium. It produces the classic “sweaty horse blanket” character of indigenous beers such as gueuze, lambics and sour browns and may form a pellicle in bottles or casks. The strain is generally used in conjunction with S. cerevisiae, as well as other wild yeast and lactic bacteria. At least 3-6 months aging is generally required for flavor to fully develop. "

brumer0 said:

I have known that Lambic beers use it to provide its tart and sour flavor.

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Brettanomyces alone will not make a beer sour. Slightly tart (as is the case with Orval, who uses it as a bottling strain), yes, but full on sour, no.

Brett, when used as a primary yeast, ferments quite clean compared to most descriptions. When stressed (high ABV/low pH/what-have-you environments) if produces the barnyard/funk/earthy aromas and flavors.

brumer0 said:

Are there any commercial examples, along the lines of Orval, of beers that use Brett yeast (either in secondary, bottle, or otherwise)?

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To give you a wide range:
Odell Saborteur: pineapple like, wet blanket, funky brown ale
BLVD Saison Brett: slightly earthy saison when young, age it and let the funk sing!
Orval: Super-attenuated Belgian trappist ale with a bit of funk when young, but when older, it really ramps up the funk and tartness

Hope that helps!

brumer0 said:

Thanks for the help everybody. Im going to look for Biere De Mars to try and identify the 'rustic' flavor for me. Im aware of this description but have failed in identifying it.

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Get a hold of some older Orval and compare it to fresh Orval, you can really see the difference. I only just realized how much the brett add because I bought a full case of Orval that was bottled within the last 4 months. It is still a good beer young but much different and I prefer to just sit on it and wait til it gets older.

rjwhite41 said:

If you can't relate to the barnyard/wet horse comment then you haven't tasted enough Brett beers.

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Or I haven't tasted enough barnyards or wet horses to relate those comments to taste. That's what I was getting at. Similar to something tasting like poop. I've never eaten poop, but I have eaten things that have tasted bad. That said, I don't plan on licking any sweaty horses any time soon so I'll have to take their word for it.

When the beer is bottled with brett as the 'bottling strain' how do they know how much it'll ferment and how much it'll carb the beer?

We do attenuation tests at work which works well with sacc, but I thought brett took a lot longer.

looneybomber said:

Or I haven't tasted enough barnyards or wet horses to relate those comments to taste. That's what I was getting at. Similar to something tasting like poop. I've never eaten poop, but I have eaten things that have tasted bad. That said, I don't plan on licking any sweaty horses any time soon so I'll have to take their word for it.

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http://www.reachoutmichigan.org/funexperiments/agesubject/lessons/newton/tstesmll.html

"Seventy to seventy-five percent of what we perceive as taste actually comes from our sense of smell. Taste buds allow us to perceive only bitter, salty, sweet, and sour flavors. It’s the odor molecules from food that give us most of our taste sensation."

I don't think anyone is proposing sloppy make-outs with horses.

looneybomber said:

Or I haven't tasted enough barnyards or wet horses to relate those comments to taste. That's what I was getting at. Similar to something tasting like poop. I've never eaten poop, but I have eaten things that have tasted bad. That said, I don't plan on licking any sweaty horses any time soon so I'll have to take their word for it.

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i don't know that you have to eat poop or lick horse sweat to get a feel for what it might taste like. our sense of smell and taste is very intertwined, so many of the taste descriptions we use are more associated with smells. I think my farts smell yummy- but i bet to a lot of other people they smell like poop, i'm sure that they can taste many of my ground shaking rippers- but that doesn't mean they are poop eaters- just fart sniffers. so in summary, i don't even know what my point was, but brett L definitely can give you horsey blanket- even if you've never put away geronimos hard ridden stallion, you can still get a taste/smell of it... maybe you should hang around some barns without seeming too suspicious

spearko520 said:

I think my farts smell yummy

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I was with you, right up until that.

You should give the most recent Zymurgy a read. There is a really nice write up on Orval, focusing on 2 different Brett strains. Really a good read worth looking at if you are interested in learning more about how Brett does it's thing and the kind of character you get from varying Brett strains.

I've never bottled any of my brett beers, but I know that when I keg them my beers are usually around 1.020 when I add the brett. I let the kegs sit 6-8 months and they are very well carbonated at that point. But I have never checked the FG on any of them.

corkybstewart said:

I've never bottled any of my brett beers, but I know that when I keg them my beers are usually around 1.020 when I add the brett. I let the kegs sit 6-8 months and they are very well carbonated at that point. But I have never checked the FG on any of them.

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A slightly off-topic comment, but kegging and bottling a Brett'd beer are two different animals. A note of caution for anyone bottling a Brett beer, they can finish quite low, be sure its at a stable gravity. I had Brett-C drop a beer's gravity from 1.012 to 0.094 during a year of aging.

Brett chews the toughest longest chained dextrins like that rock crusher in Neverending Story. A nice brew that takes a small funky twist with a secondary ferment is Goose Island's Matilda . . . a sweet and funky Belgain pale ale. I love that thing.

dcHokie said:

A slightly off-topic comment, but kegging and bottling a Brett'd beer are two different animals. A note of caution for anyone bottling a Brett beer, they can finish quite low, be sure its at a stable gravity. I had Brett-C drop a beer's gravity from 1.012 to 0.094 during a year of aging.

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What was your mash temp? I have done a couple higher gravity brett beers and they went from like 1.025 after primary sacch strain down to 1.018 with brett L. I have a RIS going now that started at like 1.117. Last I checked it was at 1.038 and its still slowly going. It's only been 5 or 6 months though.

smokinghole said:

What was your mash temp? I have done a couple higher gravity brett beers and they went from like 1.025 after primary sacch strain down to 1.018 with brett L. I have a RIS going now that started at like 1.117. Last I checked it was at 1.038 and its still slowly going. It's only been 5 or 6 months though.

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Mashed this one at 154. OG was 1.065, then 1.012 after two weeks. After 7 months on Wyeast Brett C and oak it was down to 1.002 Figured it would stop there, but 5 months after that I got a reading of 0.094 (and I double-checked with other hydrometers to verify).

That's impressive. Did you save the culture? Imagine the dryness you could get with a saison using that!

smokinghole said:

That's impressive. Did you save the culture? Imagine the dryness you could get with a saison using that!

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Sort of, I harvested that culture and combined it with a gallon jug of washed Brett brux and lambicus. (sorry for the thread-jack folks)

I ended up not using any kind of Brett in the beer I was going to try it in. I was way to concerned with it contaminating my other brew equipment. It sounds like some of you use Brett several different ways. How do you insure that you dont contaminate your equipment, or do you just TOTALLY separate your stuff? Are you even able to reuse the bottles or does sanitizing them kill all the spores.

...now that I think about it, I did use old Orval bottles in this last batch.

i wouldnt worry about contamination. if you're equipment is super scratched up then there could be an issue, but even then i doubt pbw then star-san couldnt clear that up. i re-use all the same stuff and haven't had a contamination issue

dcp27 said:

i wouldnt worry about contamination. if you're equipment is super scratched up then there could be an issue, but even then i doubt pbw then star-san couldnt clear that up. i re-use all the same stuff and haven't had a contamination issue

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Thanks

brumer0 said:

I ended up not using any kind of Brett in the beer I was going to try it in. I was way to concerned with it contaminating my other brew equipment. It sounds like some of you use Brett several different ways. How do you insure that you dont contaminate your equipment, or do you just TOTALLY separate your stuff? Are you even able to reuse the bottles or does sanitizing them kill all the spores.

...now that I think about it, I did use old Orval bottles in this last batch.

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Brett is just another variety of yeast so your normal sanitation is all that's required. I've never done anything remotely special to clean fermenters or even kegs that have had brett beersin them.

i think it's more the bacteria that can cross contaminate. i do have separate stuff for plastic and anything that has rubber or vinyl in it- hoses etc. I don't think i would worry about glass- like corkybstewart said- brett is just a yeast. i use my older scratched up buckets for anything bacterial or brett, since they are scratched up, but i pretty much hope critters are living in the cracks, as i want to get as many as i can into the beer. i do know guys though, who seem to have an infected brewery, as all their beers have a little house funk- as long as it works for you though...

spearko520 said:

i think it's more the bacteria that can cross contaminate. i do have separate stuff for plastic and anything that has rubber or vinyl in it- hoses etc. I don't think i would worry about glass- like corkybstewart said- brett is just a yeast. i use my older scratched up buckets for anything bacterial or brett, since they are scratched up, but i pretty much hope critters are living in the cracks, as i want to get as many as i can into the beer. i do know guys though, who seem to have an infected brewery, as all their beers have a little house funk- as long as it works for you though...

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It's actually the yeast you need to worry about. They're much hardier that Lacto and Pedio. The Brett is what sticks around and can be difficult to eradicate.

So much good knowledge from experience on this post. I hope that others can benefit from you experts as much as I have.