Bare minimum to start e-brewing? e-BIAB?

I'm looking to upgrade from stove top brewing and start brewing on a permanent set up. I'm on a tight budget, but at the same time I don't want to buy/build anything that I'm going to grow out of. So, a couple of questions (a little long so bare with me ):

1. Whats is the bare minimum to start e-brewing? Any problem with this kettle or either of these elements in a e-BIAB setup? LWD good enough or do I need ULWD so I don't burn the grain bag?

40qt aluminum Pot
4500w Element 1
4500w Element 2

2. Can I just plug in/plug out or add a switch to turn on and off the element until I get a proper controller? I have an old sleeping bag I have no problem using for temporary insulation while mashing, and I don't mind thermometer watching, for now.

3. What are the requirements for building the power cord? Couldn't I just use a dryer/water heater power cord rated for 240v/30a? I think I have a spare somewhere around the house.

4. Could I run these elements at 120v for 2.5 gallon batches? I wouldn't be against making small batches until I upgrade my set up. Which in this case would just be swapping out the power cable and plug from a 120v to a 240v.

5. Will a 4500w element boil off too much of my wort? If so, would a 3500w element work for 5 gallon batches and still be useful as I expand?

3500w Element

6. Could I eventually use the kettle as a HLT for 10 gallon batches? I don't really see myself ever making 10 gallon batches, but never say never!

7. Other then the outlet box, anything else I missed? It seems to me I could almost pull this off with about $100, which is about the same amount of money I would need to buy the kettle and a propane burner.

I'll take a crack at answering some of your questions. Note - my responses are in red, inside your quote.

knope said:

I'm looking to upgrade from stove top brewing and start brewing on a permanent set up. I'm on a tight budget, but at the same time I don't want to buy/build anything that I'm going to grow out of. So, a couple of questions (a little long so bare with me ):

1. Whats is the bare minimum to start e-brewing? Any problem with this kettle or either of these elements in a e-BIAB setup? LWD good enough or do I need ULWD so I don't burn the grain bag?

40qt aluminum Pot
4500w Element 1
4500w Element 2

The bare minimum is having a pot, an element, and power. Looks like you're good. I haven't heard too many complaints on the LWD elements, but I've heard ZERO complaints on the ULWD elements. Personally, I went ULWD

2. Can I just plug in/plug out or add a switch to turn on and off the element until I get a proper controller? I have an old sleeping bag I have no problem using for temporary insulation while mashing, and I don't mind thermometer watching, for now.

I'm personally of the opinion that you CAN do that, but it's a pain in the ass, especially when a PID or a PWM is not that much money. Your stove does a range other than ON / OFF - why shouldn't your e-brewery? Maybe you don't care about hitting specific mash or HLT temps, but having the ability to throttle the element in your BK is a plus. It would allow you to heat up rapidly to get to a boil, and then throttle down to a rolling boil instead of running at full power the whole time.

3. What are the requirements for building the power cord? Couldn't I just use a dryer/water heater power cord rated for 240v/30a? I think I have a spare somewhere around the house.

If you're running a 240v element, your 240v/30a dryer cord should be good - Hot A / Hot B / Ground. If you plan to add any 120v components to your assembly over time (such as a 120v pump) then you'd need a 4 wire cable to your panel - Hot A / Hot B / Neutral / Ground.

4. Could I run these elements at 120v for 2.5 gallon batches? I wouldn't be against making small batches until I upgrade my set up. Which in this case would just be swapping out the power cable and plug from a 120v to a 240v.

A 4500w 240v element run at 120v gives you 1125w of power. That may be enough to get 2.5 gallons going. One thing to wonder about is your kettle - if you mount your element and only put in 2.5 gallons of wort, will the element still be covered? If so, this could definitely work.

5. Will a 4500w element boil off too much of my wort? If so, would a 3500w element work for 5 gallon batches and still be useful as I expand?

3500w Element

See my point above about having a PID or PWM - my opinion is that you want the biggest element you can power, but have the ability to throttle it down. I have a 4500w ULWD in my BK, and it boils 10 gallons no problem at 80% power. At 100% (what you'd get without a PID or PWM), it would be a very violent boil for 5 gallons. If you put in a 3500w element, then you have to deal with longer lag time to get to boiling. No one element can give you a quick temperature rise with a steady boil unless you have a PID or PWM, or you sit there and plug it in / unplug it repeatedly, or have 2 elements and turn one off after you get to boil.

6. Could I eventually use the kettle as a HLT for 10 gallon batches? I don't really see myself ever making 10 gallon batches, but never say never!

Sure, why not?

7. Other then the outlet box, anything else I missed? It seems to me I could almost pull this off with about $100, which is about the same amount of money I would need to buy the kettle and a propane burner.

Again, it all depends on how you do it. The number one piece of equipment you should have when going electric is a GFCI breaker or outlet or some type of GFCI protection. When mixing water, electricity, and home-built equipment, GFCI protection is cheap insurance against death and burning your house down.

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My *PERSONAL* opinion on BARE minimum for an electric setup - some form of GFCI protection, a properly sized / rated cable for your element, a VERY simple control box (A PID and an SSR with a heatsink and an RTD temperature probe), and the largest (most powerful) element you can afford. This setup won't be all that expensive, will allow you to quickly reach the temperatures you want, and will allow you to hold those temperatures indefiniately. Before everyone comes in to tell me I'm wrong - this is MY opinion on what I think the minimum requirement should be to actually get any benefit out of an e-brew setup.


-Kevin

kevin,
this kevin agrees with your assessment and is what i originally planned to do before i learned of heat exchange coils and recirculating. of course, once i knew, i had to have it.

i hate this hobby

but seriously, i looked at a simple control box with a pid, ssr, etc. when i did my original analysis, i could use my old 7G pot and probably do it (minus pump) for about four to five hundred. this included parts, tubing, connectors, etc.

that plan grew into what i have in my sig and i can't be happier, even if i spent about $800 more than planned (including tools)

I use two elements on 120V, a 1375W and a 2000W. One in the keggle, one heat stick. I bought a kr2040ac power controller ssr to adjust temp, but don't need it. I just turn one element off and the other will hold a boil for my 10gal batches.

if I were doing smaller amounts then the power control would be great. A PID would be nice but don't have the cash for it and don't need it yet. If I you are recirculating then PID is near essential.

I just wanted to highlight that the OP seems to be looking for simple plug in/unplug operation, at this point. No automation right now and, I'm assuming, no real controller box build of any kind. I too am moving from stove top to e-brewery, so I really don't have any recommendations myself.

knope said:

1. Whats is the bare minimum to start e-brewing? .

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7-15 gallon kettle fitted w/ one or two 2000w 120v HD element or heatsticks, wont be the fastest process, but will work. kettle plus $10 element, $10 - &15 cord, $10 - $15 misc. hardware plugged into one or two 20 amp gfci's will allow for 5 or 10 gallon batches. Kettle size should be kept to a minimum if attempting a single element.

IMHO 4500w at 100% is too much for 5 gal batches, 3500w would be more appropriate.

Wish list

5500w fully automated 10-20 gallon stainless kettle.

Fortunately the bus makes many stops between the two

1125w will likely be ineffective IMO, I doubt it will boil 3-4 gallons, just a WAG. The surface area of the kettle dissipates a bit of wattage, you can't scale linearly b/w batch size and wattage requirements.

My *PERSONAL* opinion on the BARE minimum for an electric setup - some form of GFCI protection, and properly sized / rated (cable and element(s)). Just my personal opinion that a simple, perhaps slightly under powered e-brew system can be a huge benefit for brewing indoors / basement brewing. The benefits of having things set and ready to go vs. hauling burners outside during potentially offensive weather far outweighs the additional time a slower system needs. I don't fully understand the need for automation, but rather sizing the element(s) to the boil size, where strike and mash temps are adjusted manually as most do while brewing with propane / NG. A bare bones e-system may be a little bit slower, but you can plan ahead and do other things during the process in the comfort of your home, rather than running in and outside tending a burner. Before everyone comes in to tell me I'm wrong - this is MY opinion.

wilserbrewer said:

My *PERSONAL* opinion on the BARE minimum for an electric setup - some form of GFCI protection, and properly sized / rated (cable and element(s)). Just my personal opinion that a simple, perhaps slightly under powered e-brew system can be a huge benefit for brewing indoors / basement brewing. The benefits of having things set and ready to go vs. hauling burners outside during potentially offensive weather far outweighs the additional time a slower system needs. I don't fully understand the need for automation, but rather sizing the element(s) to the boil size, where strike and mash temps are adjusted manually as most do while brewing with propane / NG. A bare bones e-system may be slow, but you can plan ahead and do other things during the process in the comfort of your home, rather than running in and outside tending a burner. Before everyone comes in to tell me I'm wrong - this is MY opinion.

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You're wrong! (Sorry, had to do it)

BadNewsBrewery said:

You're wrong! (Sorry, had to do it)

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I disagree! We are both wrong

So to get back to being helpful, there's been some discussion about how powerful the element should be. My opinion is to make it as big as possible and throttle it, wilserbrewer suggests matching it to your batch size and not worrying about throttling. Technically, he's right - that is the minimum - but what size to get?

Use this handy spreadsheet and it SHOULD help you dial in where you want to be. http://gnipsel.com/beer/software/calculators/electric-heat.xls

BTW insulate the kettle, we used a camping mat plus reflectix. Faster to boil and easier to maintain a boil.

Thanks for the help guys! I did a little math with a 14in diameter pot I get 1.5in per gallon. 2.5 gallon batch puts me at 3.75in which seems to be right around limit. With safety in mind, I think I'm going to go with a 120v first step build. My house has 20amp circuits and I have a GFCI outlet that is close enough to the stove. I'm estimating low from my previous batches and the excel doc that the large burner on the stove runs around 1000-1250w after heat loss.

So my new idea is to use a 120v element and my stove. The plan is to over build the element power cable so I would only have to change the element and plug when I upgrade to 240v. I unplug the element and I could hold mash with the stove. Raise the temperature up to mash out and up to boil with both on. Once it's boiling I should be able to turn the stove off and hold a decent enough boil.

My only problem right now is choosing between a 1500w ULWD and a 2000w HWD. With the 1500w I wouldn't have to worry about the BIAB bag burning but with 2500-2750w I might be a little underpowered. A little insulation goes a long way though. With the 2000w I would have to be careful with the BIAB bag between mash and mash-out. At the same time, it's shouldn't take too long to go up mash-out. I'm so in-between right now I might as well just flip a coin when I place my order.

Maybe your low estimate is leading you astray. Can you really not boil 2.5gallons of sugary liquid on your stove? When i was using stove alone I was boiling around 4gal in 6gal pots. I am boiling 10gallons with 3375W in my insulated keggle. I'd be amazed if stove + 1375w doesn't do it, therefore you can just build a 240V system using the 5500w ulwd element and run it on 120V leaving you an even simpler upgrade and saving you one element purchase.

I'm in a similar situation. Moving (temporarily) to a small, remote place where I can't bring my recently built, 3 keggle 2-tier system. I'm trying to plan ahead because it will be hard to do any work up there without any of my tools or local resources. Also, I'm assuming worst case scenario as far as power is concerned, so I'm planning to run the system off 120 v probably off 2 separate 15 amp circuits (I hope). I'm fine with BIAB in a single 8 gallon (Al) pot. So, I need to build the cheapest, safest brewing setup capable of 5 gallons, that can be packed and shipped, and used in a tiny, 1 bdrm apt in remote AK. Here's what I was thinking: 32 qt aluminum pot (cheap), 2 - 1500 w LWD elements, direct wired plugs with no temp control (cheap), some sort of GFCI. I don't want to use 240v and I don't want temp controller.
Will this work for what I need? Any suggestions or tips are appreciated. Thanks.

jmcquesten said:

I'm in a similar situation. Moving (temporarily) to a small, remote place where I can't bring my recently built, 3 keggle 2-tier system. I'm trying to plan ahead because it will be hard to do any work up there without any of my tools or local resources. Also, I'm assuming worst case scenario as far as power is concerned, so I'm planning to run the system off 120 v probably off 2 separate 15 amp circuits (I hope). I'm fine with BIAB in a single 8 gallon (Al) pot. So, I need to build the cheapest, safest brewing setup capable of 5 gallons, that can be packed and shipped, and used in a tiny, 1 bdrm apt in remote AK. Here's what I was thinking: 32 qt aluminum pot (cheap), 2 - 1500 w LWD elements, direct wired plugs with no temp control (cheap), some sort of GFCI. I don't want to use 240v and I don't want temp controller.
Will this work for what I need? Any suggestions or tips are appreciated. Thanks.

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Yes, I would think this is perfect for 5 gallon bare minimum e-brew BIAB. You could get GFCI cords, portable plug in GFCI's, or build switched GFCI outlets.

I would advise getting a ten gallon kettle min. for 5 gallon batches, 8 gallons might be a little small for the mash and the boil. You also want some headroom in the kettle for an "uncontrolled" bare bones system.

My process would be:

Heat strike water
add grain and bag
insulate kettle w/ blankets
remove bag and boil

no need to run the elements during the mash, however if your mash temps are low, I think you could power an element BUT you would need to stir vigilantly around the element, or you could temper with a bit of boiling water.

Yeah, you're right about the 10 gallon capacity. I forgot strike water for a 5 gal biab is close to 8.5-9 lbs. That might be a little bigger I can practically ship and store up there. I really have no idea on the size of the apts that are available, so I'm trying to minimize the whole operation. I'll have to rely on shipping everything or ordering new online and paying ridiculous s+h. Plus, there is concern on the legality of homebrewing in a "damp" county...this is a pain.

The stove + element is for 5 gallon batches boiling 6.5-7 gallons of water. I think I didn't make that clear, sorry! On the stove I was able to boil 2.25-2.5 gallons, but it takes a while and I had to keep it on high.

I think I'm over thinking this. There are a hundred ways to skin this cat and all of them work just fine. Can I make a controller that combines 2x 120v elements in the HLT and one 240v element in the boil kettle? If so, I'll just go with 2x 1500w or a 1500w and a 2000w. I can't seem to find any 120v 2000w ULWD or LWD elements though.

Edit: After looking at a few diagrams I think it would be possible. All I would have to do is use the neutral instead of the other line when connecting to the 120v elements (I think). But that is for another day!