Sassafras flavor / alternatives

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are you sure dihydroanethol doesn't exist in nature?
Blue-Frog

Dihydroanethol exists in nature, specifically in bonito mushrooms, capparis spinosa, katsubushi, mentha rotundifolia and pimpinella anisum, but, I have only seen the synthetic version offered for sale.
 
so conceivably Pappy's might contain it and still be "all natural".

Yes, but unlikely as a natural isolate because it would be too costly. Also, don't forget that dihydroanethol's flavor also has an anise component. This is fine for root beer because pre-1960 commercial root beer typically contained safrole (sassafras), methyl salicylate (wintergreen), and anethol (anise), but, the last two components have no place in sassafras flavoring. Do you taste any anise or wintergreen flavor in Pappy's?

Incidentally, I tried Lorann's "Sassafras" flavoring several years ago and it tasted like little more than methyl salicylate to me.
 
Yes, but unlikely as a natural isolate because it would be too costly. Also, don't forget that dihydroanethol's flavor also has an anise component. This is fine for root beer because pre-1960 commercial root beer typically contained safrole (sassafras), methyl salicylate (wintergreen), and anethol (anise), but, the last two components have no place in sassafras flavoring. Do you taste any anise or wintergreen flavor in Pappy's?

Incidentally, I tried Lorann's "Sassafras" flavoring several years ago and it tasted like little more than methyl salicylate to me.

That is curious.

The Lorann's "Sassafras" flavoring I tried, also several years ago, if it had any methyl salicylate at all, certainly was not methyl salicylate "forward"; if present, it most certainly was muted and at low or threshold levels... it in fact seemed to be anethol "forward" if anything.

In the Pappy's I've tried, there was never any taste of anise nor wintergreen - not even a hint. That was some time ago however and I cannnot be certain their formulation /flavor profile hasn't changed.
 
That is curious.

The Lorann's "Sassafras" flavoring I tried, also several years ago, if it had any methyl salicylate at all, certainly was not methyl salicylate "forward"; if present, it most certainly was muted and at low or threshold levels... it in fact seemed to be anethol "forward" if anything.

In the Pappy's I've tried, there was never any taste of anise nor wintergreen - not even a hint. That was some time ago however and I cannnot be certain their formulation /flavor profile hasn't changed.

I still have Lorann's "Sassafras" flavoring and just now smelled it. I only recently became familiar with the odor and flavor of isobutyl salicylate. I seem to smell isobutyl salicylate plus something more fruity that I cannot even seemingly identify. See http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/rw1006892.html and click "Organoleptics." You can buy 4 ml for $3 at http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/p-6127-isobutyl-salicylate.aspx .

I may be abnormally sensitive to the flavor of methyl salicylate. I can easily identify its flavor in A&W Root Beer because it burns my tongue in a certain way that I dislike. If it was that way with most people, A&W would not be the best selling root beer. However, I cannot identify the flavor of wintergreen in classic bubble gum flavor. To me, Barq's Root Beer tastes like classic bubble gum plus a little extra wintergreen.
 
7/7/14

Yesterday, I bought a 12 oz. bottle of Pappy's Sassafras Instant Tea at Walmart for $2.74 just to examine the odor. I cannot decide whether it has a sassafras odor component but the overall odor is closer to that of modern root beer than it is to that of sassafras. But, it is more pungent than either sassafras or modern root beer. I seem to smell methyl salicylate (wintergreen) and eugenol (clove). I note that eugenol and camphor are secondary components of sassafras oil which is more than 75% safrole.
 
interesting.
Wish I could smell it.

As an aside, a friend just brought me a present from Canada... a packet of Dave's Root Beer Tea...
and if you know your Root Beer History, that is an interesting full circle, at leat in a mobius sortof way.

Well, I don't know what to say.
It wasn't sassafrass, but I thought the flavor was a pretty good approximation.
(On the A~F Scale maybe between C+ and D+)

It is curious... the lable says Sarsaparilla essence, extract or something-
(it is not in front of me now), but what I found interesting is that it said "Made in Vietnam".

I was there a few years back and was delighted to discover a Vietnamese root beer, Xaxsi or Saxsi, well I can't recall the spelling now- I could check if necessary anyway it is pronounced sort of like "SAUCE-She"; its an unusual taste, more like current root beer than sassafras tea, but still unique and quite drinkable!

The Canadian Root Beer Tea might (?) have contained some Sassafras, but not much.
It did taste kind of nice... I suspect the cinnamon was Vietnamese based on looks, taste and oh yea, the "made in..." lable.

There are a lot of wierd things in the tea as well... some very tiny red flowers, dried mik or something like that, etc.

I haven't looked for the site, but i was told it is available on line.

humm that taste might have been crsated... (improved upon) using a Lorran's oil type sassafras flavor and the other additional materials... I don't know.

It is dangerous to speak of flavors long seperated in time!

Why can you not say if the Pappys you bought tasted like sassafras or not?
Is it borderline?


ok, I checked and the tea is called "Root Beer Float Tea"...

Contains:
Cinnamon, black tea, white chocolate, sarsaparilla, safflower petals, natural flavouring*.
Contains milk and soy

you can read a review at
http://sororiteasisters.com/2012/12/08/organic-root-beer-float-from-davids-tea/

The reviewer said it tastes like root beer, but I would point out
I would place it closer to sassafras tea than root beer.

Perhaps it depends upon how thinly you draw the line.

(If you decide to order some, could you let me know?)
 
Yes, but, don't forget that I have real sassafras oil that is about 80% safrole with which to make comparisons therefore I am not relying on long term memory. And, with this, I have duplicated some pre-1960 commercial root beer recipes. Incidentally, one, called Ottawa Root Beer, was simply flavored with equal parts wintergreen, anise and sassafras oils. In my opinion, it tastes better than any modern commercial root beer.

Because it is possible to blend ingredients in proportions such that it is impossible to identify any of the components from the odor of the mixture alone. The brain perceives the odor of the mixture as a single odor. There is no word for this property, so call it "property X." Examples of common mixtures with property X are Coca Cola and classic bubble gum flavor. (Incidentally, it seems that property X is often desirable because I prefer Coke to Pepsi because I can identify a lemon odor in Pepsi.) When only some components can be identified, it is conceptually useful to break the odor down into (something with property X) + everything that can be identified. My brain perceives the odor of Pappy's Sassafras Tea as (something with property X) + methyl salicylate + eugenol. If there was safrol in Pappy's, it would be included in (something with property X).
 
In my opinion, it tastes better than any modern commercial root beer.

I think I would agree with you, but I don't think it should be made w/o a decent safrole substitute.
Despite my personal belief that it is probably ok, I wouldn't want to be accused of killing people by using a known carcinogen that has been banned for more than half a century. We would never win a lawsuit.

We have to get the law changed.
For that to happen the science needs to be reviewed and a lot of noise has to be made.

A lot of noise.
 
Examples of common mixtures with property X are Coca Cola and classic bubble gum flavor.

classic bubble gum flavor... Double Bubble? Bozooka Joe?
humm, What do you believe a typical Rx for such a flavor would include?
 
Incidentally I prefer Coke to Pepsi because I can identify a lemon odor in Pepsi.

Strange, I prefer Pepsi because I can taste the cinnamon... not because of any lemony nuance... For me I might add concentration is important and very often the machines are not set to give the best flavored soda.


If there was safrol in Pappy's, it would be included in (something with property X)

Ah, but the Modern Pappy's isn't supposed to contain any safrole.

Nevertheless, when I tasted it, years ago, it did and it tasted like it did.
No X involved.


Re: Ottawa Rx
I do agree with you about the taste.
(Have you had any problems with "crud" precipitating out of concentrates?)

I will point out that there are several other, more complicated Rx for this , (some very much more)... and there are also similar Rx that do not bear this name at all.

The history is itself interesting and I wish I knew more....
 
I think I would agree with you, but I don't think it should be made w/o a decent safrole substitute.
Despite my personal belief that it is probably ok, I wouldn't want to be accused of killing people by using a known carcinogen that has been banned for more than half a century. We would never win a lawsuit.

We have to get the law changed.
For that to happen the science needs to be reviewed and a lot of noise has to be made.

A lot of noise.

You need to taste safrole to find a good FDA approved substitute. The fact that the FDA and ATF do not address this problem is proof that they are corrupt and stupid. Personally, I have no problem tasting FDA unapproved substances such as safrole, perfume grade chemicals and aromatherapy grade essential oils. If and when I go into the food business, only then will I only use FDA approved substances in order to avoid going to jail, paying fines or being sued.
 
classic bubble gum flavor... Double Bubble? Bozooka Joe?
?

The one that came with baseball cards in the 1950s.

humm, What do you believe a typical Rx for such a flavor would include?

Working from memory on a web search I made about two three weeks ago, wintergreen oil, peppermint oil, cinnamon oil, something banana and something pineapple. This tells you some ingredients to avoid in making root beer, i.e., to avoid making bubble gum flavored root beer such as Barq's.
 
Strange, I prefer Pepsi because I can taste the cinnamon... not because of any lemony nuance...

There are over 400 different kinds of olfactory receptors with about a 30% genetic variance between individuals so this is not strange.

Several decades ago, Canfield Soda Company was located in the Chicago area and their chief flavorist was a local celebrity, appearing in many local TV news stories, e.g., when Canfield came out with Diet Fudge Soda. Canfield Cola absolutely reeked of cinnamon. This indicates to me that the chief flavorist was an incompetent boob who surrounded himself with yes men.

Re: Ottawa Rx
I do agree with you about the taste.

So, you must have real sassafras oil?


(Have you had any problems with "crud" precipitating out of concentrates?)

No, I typically use 1-5% solutions of flavor chemicals or essential oils in alcohol.


I will point out that there are several other, more complicated Rx for this , (some very much more)... and there are also similar Rx that do not bear this name at all.

The history is itself interesting and I wish I knew more....

I got the Ottawa recipe and others from

A TREATISE ON BEVERAGES OR The Complete Practical Bottler
BY
CHARLES HERMAN SULZ, Technical Chemist and Practical Bottler
COPYRIGHT, 1888. BY C. H. SULZ & OO.

Also, there are old commercial recipes in

KRAMER'S Book of Trade Secrets FOR THE Manufacturer and Jobber
BY
ADOLPH KRAMER
1905
SIOUX PUBLISHING COMPANY, PUBLISHERS, Sutherland, Iowa

Both books can be downloaded as PDF files from

https://archive.org/details/texts
 
I think I would agree with you, but I don't think it should be made w/o a decent safrole substitute.
Despite my personal belief that it is probably ok, I wouldn't want to be accused of killing people by using a known carcinogen that has been banned for more than half a century. We would never win a lawsuit.

We have to get the law changed.
For that to happen the science needs to be reviewed and a lot of noise has to be made.

A lot of noise.

The alleged carcinogenic nature of safrole was trumped up strictly because it's dead easy to make safrole into methamphetamine.
 
The alleged carcinogenic nature of safrole was trumped up strictly because it's dead easy to make safrole into methamphetamine.

It is very tempting to think so but actually I don't think this is very likely.

On two accounts:
First, If I am correct about the 2nd point,
then the date of the legislation doesn't match up.

Second, arn't you thinking of another substance?
(PM me the method if you are adamant!)

But in general, yes that is the lion by the tail!
and that is why it will require a lot of science and a lot of noise to get the law rationalized.
 
There are over 400 different kinds of olfactory receptors with about a 30% genetic variance between individuals so this is not strange.

Here, strange was used to mean interesting, different; not to imply doubt.
:eek:

How are you carbonating?
 
Here, strange was used to mean interesting, different; not to imply doubt.
:eek:

How are you carbonating?

Primo Flavorstation Model 110. I get the 20 oz. C02 tanks, which are physically the same as the ones used for paintball, refilled for $3.50/tank at Sports Authority. Contrary to instructions, I mix most ingredients, including artificial sweetener, before carbonation. As long as the concentration of solutes is sufficiently low, this is usually not a problem. The only exception is foaming agents.
 
It is very tempting to think so but actually I don't think this is very likely.

On two accounts:
First, If I am correct about the 2nd point,
then the date of the legislation doesn't match up.

Second, arn't you thinking of another substance?
(PM me the method if you are adamant!)

But in general, yes that is the lion by the tail!
and that is why it will require a lot of science and a lot of noise to get the law rationalized.

What, you mean eugenol?
 

Why so coy? <- This is not a rhetorical question, nor, was , "So, you must have real sassafras oil?" I would have been more explicit and forthright with information so that there was less opportunity for confusion. Given TimpanogosSlim's confusion, which I would have tried to avoid in the first place, I would now say to TimpanogosSlim,

"No, you are confusing methamphetamine with methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine .

Safrole is not used to make methamphetamine. Methamphetamine is often made from ephedrine or pseudo-ephedrine which are commonly sold as nasal decongestants behind the drug store counter. In Illinois, pharmacists require an ID and signature so that the state can limit the amounts sold any individual.

Safrole is often used to make the recreational drug, Ecstacy (3,4-methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine (MDMA)).

I am unaware of any recreation drug that can be made from eugenol, which anyone can easily buy to treat toothaches."

However, I hate pontificating on irrelevancies even more than coyness. In this case, the extra info should help TimpanogosSlim avoid future confusion.
 
*shrug* fine. MDA rather than methamphetamine. It was still an early volley in the war on drugs.

As an aside, by the way, a couple years ago during a visit to seattle i wandered into an artisanal candy shop deep in the bowels of pike place market.

All kinds of hand made sugary whatnots. An emphasis on hard white candy.

The place REEKED of safrole.
 
For some people other than FlyingDutchman, it may interest you to know that there is another plant that contains substantial amounts of safrole. The plant, piper auritum, is sometimes called the "root beer plant." See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_auritum .
You can buy seeds or plants online. I have no experience with this.
 
I use Sassafras in my root beer and have heard some safrole debate in different areas but I am just not sure about it all. I am not directing this towards anyone, but these are questions I have wondered based on some little research and conversation I have had in the past...
1. Am I wrong in saying that there is no solid proof to safrole (in Sassafras or other plants) and cancer?
2. I thought that original link that was established with safrole being a carcinogen was dismissed ages ago?
3. Is there not more carcinogens in the very air we breath every day, than what we would get from sassafras consumption?

I cant imagine that the government (FDA) would allow such massive sales of Sassafras, or other safrole plants, if they in fact do and will cause cancer with enough consumption of those plants.

That's all based on my findings anyway. :) Whatever the case may be, good luck with your brewing and hope all goes well. :)
 
SpringMom, 10-4 on the toxicity. Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that if the flavor of the wintergreen is reasonable (ie. less strong than chewing a piece of wintergreen gum, which uses methyl salicylate as flavoring) it's probably fine. Where the problem comes in is if I were to over-dose the soda in such a way that the concentration of methyl salicylate would be so strong that it would make anything even resembling root beer...perhaps a mouthful of Bengay? ;) I would think that using a handful of fresh wintergreen leaves would be pretty safe...? I mean, they used to make tea out of it...but then, they also used to make sassafras tea... ;)

Also, I'm not ruling out the Pappy's extract, I'd just rather find a combination of raw ingredients other than sassafras that works.

Shooter, yeah, I just want to make a straight wintergreen soda for experimental purposes. I have single flavor sodas of each of the other flavors, so as I'm developing the recipe, I can more easily recognize which flavor component needs to be adjusted.

It also helps me set a benchmark for single ingredient proportion. For example, the sassafras soda that I made was WAY too strong, whereas most of the others were pretty close to ideal. Now I have a benchmark for how much of each component to add.

Just found this thread while searching through google to see if Camphor was a suitable replacement taste wise for Sassafras and I have to say that reading this post concerned me. Please do not ever use oils of Wintergreen or Birch to flavor sodas unless they are doubly diluted (meaning the EO is first diluted to 5% in carrier oil or another solvent and then diluted in the liquid). These oils are extremely toxic in levels well below what you are describing (doses as low as 101mg/kg have been found to be lethal). Just a few drops of wintergreen can lead to a hospital trip.

Now that that is out of the way, can anyone here confirm if they've found camphor to be a suitable replacement for sassafras?
 
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