Bad News Brewery - Control Panel

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BadNewsBrewery

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This is the control panel and electronics sub-build of my overall thread, available here

I had originally dreamed of a hard-piped system with all kinds of electronically actuated valves that were controlled by switches on the panel, and each switch would illuminate a pathway on the panel visually showing where the water / wort was flowing – but then cost got the best of me and I realized that the 12 or so valves I would need would have to wait, so I’ll be turning valves by hand. I can try and attach my original schematic for my manual setup in case anyone is curious – it's a highly interactive and animated PowerPoint - you run the power point, and click on the key to ‘turn the system on’ – from there, click on the various colored squares or dials (switches) and it should perform as I dreamed, within the limitations of PowerPoint. I just don't have the web-sense to know where to upload it to make it accessible. :confused: Here's a picture though...

VS5aC.jpg


So now, a much simpler panel, and manual controls. Thus far I have:
60a breaker in the main panel running a short jump via 6ga wire to a 50a GFCI spa panel that has a sufficiently rated 4 prong receptacle end. This has been installed and best I can tell is working as designed. From there, 6ga runs to the 16 x 16 x 8 panel.

Power will be controlled by a 3 Pole 50A contactor with the coil getting power from a keyed switch. Distribution of power will be through DIN mounted distribution and terminal blocks. I will use3 PIDs - two of the SWA-2451 (one for the HLT, one to simply monitor the MLT and use the timer – no action) and one SYL-2352 controlling the BK. I didn’t use a SWA-2451 on the BK because you can’t use the timer and manual mode at the same time so it didn’t make sense.

The PIDs will control two no-name 40A SSRs from eBay mounted to a large heat sink from Auber. Illuminated push-buttons will close the coils on two DIN mountable 30A Allen-Bradley contacts before the power hits the receptacles. A 4500w element is in the BK and a 5500w in the HLT. With this setup, I should be able to run back-to-back batches, or pre-heat water in the BK and MLT at the same time which should cut down my overall time brewing a single batch. The two PIDs controlling temperature will have associated LEDs to indicate when the elements are firing.

I will be installing an e-stop with the technique P-J uses, and I’d like to incorporate a safe-start interlock like Kal uses – I ordered the 8 pin 2 pole relay and base from Mouser.com Each PID will have its own alarm (16mm light / buzzer from Auber) and its own reset button. I did it this way as I may have one PID monitoring time while another monitors temperature, and it’d be good to get a separate alarm for each.

I have ordered DIN mount rails, along with terminal blocks and distribution points, terminal block separators and end caps, and DIN breakers – two 25a double pole, two 16a single pole – mostly from eBrewsupply.com or Mouser.com

I have various chassis mount XLR connectors and electrical receptacles, all twist lock. The RTD probes will come through the XLRs and the pumps / heating elements will be through the twist-locks. I bought way more XLRs than needed thinking that I’d use the XLR fittings for the electronic valves, if / when I get to that… or I’ll post them for sale.

For the power on – I am using a keyed switch from ebrewsupply. In place of the typical LED that most people use to show power on, I want to go a little different. I have a logo designed for my brewery that I’ve been using. I plan to get the logo reverse-engraved in a piece of acrylic from Big Blue Saw and build an LED light box behind it – when you turn on the panel, the logo lights up – if it works the way I hope, it’ll be pretty cool looking. I may just get the logo negative-cut from vinyl and stick it to the back of a piece of plexiglass, or come up with some other idea… I have an LED transformer from SuperBrightLEDs.com and a length of LED tape from them as well. The transformer will take between 85 and 260vac input and give 12vdc output.

Below is a visual interface of how I think the final panel will look.

NVPDy.jpg


I would greatly appreciate any advice or thoughts on the process, help with wiring diagrams, ideas on where to get the logo panel done, anything along those lines. The more I trouble shoot this before construction, the less chance of letting out the magic black smoke.

I plan to mount the panel via a home-built ceiling mounted ‘jib arm crane’ that will allow me to adjust the panel to pretty much anywhere within a decent size area, as long as my cables are long enough. I will be writing a full article on this if it actually works out.
-Kevin
 
This is a total hack job I did on one of P-J's diagrams to get me close to where I think I want to be... I know for fact I have the wrong PIDs, and my safe-start interlock leaves a lot to be desired...

WEoBR.jpg
 
Hey BadNews - Subbed... I'm building something very similar. Will follow your control panel build. P-J is the man, by the way.
 
BadNewsBrewery,

First post - the 2 images do not show.
Second post: The image is so small that I cannot read anything on it or figure out the PIDs involved or figure out and read your "safe start" circuit. I also cannot figure out what the original diagram was that you modified.

The general plan I got. BUT???

Ok well... Wishing you the best.

P-J
 
P-J,
I've updated the photo links to a new host. With the wiring diagram, I left the information from the original one I hacked up for reference. 3 PIDs (two SWA-2451, one SYL-2352)

Anything you can offer in terms of guidance, I'm all ears! Also, being that I have two single-pole DIN breakers - is there any value to running the pumps off one of the hot legs and the PIDs and other items off the other hot leg to balance the loads a little, or is that just causing undue complication?
-Kevin
 
MadGus - I had such dreams and aspirations, having the lines in the first diagram backlight to show where the flow path was, but I got to a point where it was either dial down the scope and finish, or shoot for the stars and have a project that drags out for months on end... Between the cost of parts and the cost of the move, extra spending on the brewery was not in the cards.
-Kevin
 
The rest of my parts showed up today. Luckily, the contactors, relays, and pretty everything that needs to be mounted to the back of the panel happens to be DIN mountable, so score one there. I tested out the contactors with a plug / pigtail - they are LOUD when the fire, especially the 50a 3-pole one (which is huge as well). The 16mm alarm buzzers are not anywhere near as loud as I had feared - loud enough to let you know it's time to do something, but not so loud that you'll hear it from another room or that it'll burst your eardrums. The LED switches seem plenty bright at 120 but I may try then at 240. It's disappointing that they are default wired to be on all the time and that you have to jumper through the NO switch to make it so that the LED is only on when the switch is depressed.

I plan to do some construction on the panel and the kettles this weekend. Fingers crossed!
-Kevin
 
Hahaha, right? I think I can get the safe start to work physically. Drawing it may be where I'm limited.
 
So today I start cutting the panel and mounting up components. If anyone has any advice on wiring or a diagram that might help point me in the right direction, I'd be eternally grateful.
-Kevin
 
Your safe start schematic looks legit to me.

I'd strongly suggest that the contactor be replaced with one that has an auxiliary NO contact. Replace the ON switch with a NO push button (use the one from the current emergency off kluge) in series with a NC push button. Wire the auxiliary contact across the NO push button. When you push the NO button the contactor coil is energized and the auxiliary contact keeps it energized thus latching the contactor on. When you subsequently press the NC button the contactor is de-energized and stays so until the NO button is pushed again.

This is, IMO, superior to the leakage current scheme which, if the fuse opens or is dislodged or if GFCI coil fails, won't interrupt current. The suggested arrangement fails off.

If you can't find a contactor with auxiliary contacts (I'd be surprised) or have already invested in one and don't want to buy another you can do the latching function is a separate relay and feed the contactor coil through a contact pair on that relay.

Although OP is a bit cryptic about it I assume there are NC interlock switches at various points throughout. This is not inconsistent with the arrangement I'm suggesting. These would be wired in series with the 'Stop' push button. When you open one of these interlocks the power will go off and stay off until you both close the interlock and pust the 'Start' button again.

Also, as I note there is a low voltage transformer all the controls could be done with low voltage if it were, for example, deemed preferable to daisy chain low voltage to the interlock string. This might be a good idea if one were to want an extra emergency stop button at some distance from the control box. So perhaps the extra relay suggested above would be the better approach as it could be a low voltage relay and the start/stop/interlock string could all be low voltage relay plus the contactor in hand could still be used.

If it's not clear what I'm suggesting from my words let me know and I'll put up a diagram.
 
I went back and forth in my head on that one - part of me doesn't like the idea of the leakage current and tripping the GFCI breaker. But then I came to the realization that, with the method you describe, the panel still has power to it, just not to the actual components. So if something goes bad, a pot somehow explodes and showers water all over my panel - it's still hot even though it may appear off. Killing the GFCI is the only way to actually be sure that the panel is 100% powered down. I'll take my chances (limited in my opinion) that the GFCI will fail to trip with the leakage current.

That - and I already bought all the stuff to do it this way...

-Kevin
 
I had further thoughts while you were posting and edited mine (which was a dumb thing to do but I often get away with it as people often don't see a new post for quite a while). Anyway please check it again for the last couple of paragraphs. There is nothing there that will change your mind probably but some of the additional thoughts may be of interest.


I went back and forth in my head on that one - part of me doesn't like the idea of the leakage current and tripping the GFCI breaker. But then I came to the realization that, with the method you describe, the panel still has power to it, just not to the actual components. So if something goes bad, a pot somehow explodes and showers water all over my panel - it's still hot even though it may appear off. Killing the GFCI is the only way to actually be sure that the panel is 100% powered down.

Suppose you did it as I suggest and your panel got showered with liquid. That shouldn't be of concern to you because given what you are doing and where you are doing it you should be in (minimum) a NEMA 2 enclosure designed to protect against exactly that threat.

Second, suppose the enclosure fails and water/wort does enter the panel. What will happen? If there is a phase to phase fault then the breaker will trip in normal mode. If there is a ground fault the GFCI will trip anyway - that's what it is supposed to do.


I'll take my chances (limited in my opinion) that the GFCI will fail to trip with the leakage current.

Simple enough to test it at each brew session if you can remember to do it. Bit of a PITA to have to go back to the panel and reset it though.


That - and I already bought all the stuff to do it this way...

Some of the additional stuff in my last post emphasizes that you could use all the components you have but you would have to obtain a few more.

Really my main objection to 'fooling' the GFCI is caused by a niggling feeling in the back of my mind that that isn't really what a GFCI is for and the reasoning that the kind of fault you are worrying about should trip it anyway. I did find a discussion about using GFCI's as shunt trip breakers on an electricians board. One guy there said doing it violated 110.3(B) but all that says is that listed or labeled equipment must be installed and used in accordance with the listing or labeling. So unless the label on your GFCI says 'don't use it as a shunt trip breaker' I guess it doesn't violate code.

Of course the 'proper' way to do this, given that you don't accept that the GFCI as is provides sufficient protection, is to use a shunt trip breaker but this, of course, requires that you run the control line back to the panel.
 
I appreciate the points you're making. A shunt trip breaker would be clutch. My panel is very close to the brewery so it'd be easy enough to run the control line... but I'm not sure where I'd get one or if it'd be worth the extra $$.

The leak current and the latching contactor are both valid means of doing what we'd like while not really being the way it'd be done in industry (I think).

The low voltage part of my design is only for the LED backlighting I'm running. I don't think I'll push the transformer to do double duty and start running mixed voltage through my system.
-Kevin
 
Making progress!! Cutting the holes for the PIDs was rough just because they have so little wiggle room for error. Need to cut in the SSRs and a 120v outlet I'm mounting, then sand, paint, and wiring. I haven't figures out what I'm doing for the backlight display yet so that will wait.

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I'm working on trying to develop a better wiring diagram than the one I had previously. Where are you guys getting the PID drawings to utilize for your diagrams?
 
I'm working on trying to develop a better wiring diagram than the one I had previously. Where are you guys getting the PID drawings to utilize for your diagrams?

I think they get them from here: It took me quite a bit of time to put it together.

As always - Click on the image to see (and save) a full scale diagram that is printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17")



I sure hope this helps you in your adventure.

P-J
 
P-J,
You are, without a doubt, the man. This will go a long way to keeping me from killing myself, and my employer will thank you that I can be productive today instead of trying to design my own diagram on Power Point while trying to look up symbols and basically scratching my head.

I will be wiring the safe-start the same way Kal did, which should be easy enough to throw in with a few NC switch blocks on the pump and heating element switches. And I will be adding a 120vac to 24vdc transformer to run the LEDs for my backlight display, but that will come off the Hot 2 terminal block as a separate leg with a fuse.

Again - thank you so much for what you do for us here on this board. I'm not sure what we could ever do to repay you other than to offer our unyielding thanks.

-Kevin
 
You are welcome.

I just noticed in your parts layout that you are going to use a key switch for your mains power. I revised the diagram to show that. (With a new drawing name.) You show a lot of other switches on top you controller box but I don't have a clue what your intent is with them.

As always - Click on the image to see (and save) a full scale diagram that is printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17")




P-J
 
P-J,
Awesome - thanks. I printed it out and whited out the two lines you deleted but this is much cleaner. The only thing I need to fix - I purchased a momentary switch for the SYL-2352 matching the other two momentaries, but realize now the 2352 doesn't have a reset like the 2451 so I'm going to have to use a latching switch for that one.

I think you have all the switches I'm using. From bottom to top of the panel in Post 16 - Two red (elements for HLT / BK), two blue (Pump 1 / 2). Then 3 red momentaries (resets for PIDs). The two green ones are lights to indicate element on / off. Then 3 alarm buzzers above the PIDs. Lasty, a mushroom EPO and a keyed on/off.

Thanks again! If I can find some time tonight I'm goign to start wiring the back panel.
-Kevin
 
You "whited out the 2 lines I deleted"? I don't understand. Which lines?

I changed the light color of the element indicators to green.
Just refresh the posts and the changes will show.

Anything else I need to change or add?

P-J


P-J,
Awesome - thanks. I printed it out and whited out the two lines you deleted but this is much cleaner. The only thing I need to fix - I purchased a momentary switch for the SYL-2352 matching the other two momentaries, but realize now the 2352 doesn't have a reset like the 2451 so I'm going to have to use a latching switch for that one.

I think you have all the switches I'm using. From bottom to top of the panel in Post 16 - Two red (elements for HLT / BK), two blue (Pump 1 / 2). Then 3 red momentaries (resets for PIDs). The two green ones are lights to indicate element on / off. Then 3 alarm buzzers above the PIDs. Lasty, a mushroom EPO and a keyed on/off.

Thanks again! If I can find some time tonight I'm goign to start wiring the back panel.
-Kevin
 
The lines I whited out on the original print out were the ones running to the main on/off switch for the LED power. Not having an illuminated switch it was a quick fix bit your redone diagram took care of it.

Here's more of a question than a request for change - I purchased two single-pole breakers in addition to the two double-poles. Any advantage to splitting the 120v loads in the panel to both legs or is the demand so low that keeping everything on one leg doesn't cause any issue? I'm assuming the latter as that's how everyone else does it, just figured it was worth the discussion given that I have the fourth breaker.
-Kevin
 
Installing the breaker would balance the 120V load across the 240V feed. You have the breaker already so you could do that. I do not think there is any problem running the system as shown as there is adaquate power being supplied for the system as is. Installing it just becomes more work for you.

P-J

The lines I whited out on the original print out were the ones running to the main on/off switch for the LED power. Not having an illuminated switch it was a quick fix bit your redone diagram took care of it.

Here's more of a question than a request for change - I purchased two single-pole breakers in addition to the two double-poles. Any advantage to splitting the 120v loads in the panel to both legs or is the demand so low that keeping everything on one leg doesn't cause any issue? I'm assuming the latter as that's how everyone else does it, just figured it was worth the discussion given that I have the fourth breaker.
-Kevin
 
Pretty much what I was thinking - extra work for minimal gain. If we were running larger 120v loads I could see it...
 
Please update this thread as you progress in your build. This is the place where you pose questions and seek answers. It is also the place where you post your outstanding cheers of success. (Hey, I'm subscribe to this thread and I 'wanna know. Ok?)

Wishing you great success.

P-J

Pretty much what I was thinking - extra work for minimal gain. If we were running larger 120v loads I could see it...
 
Come hell or high water, I will get results and post them. Success is in the eye of the beholder so time will tell!!
 
I have a question on the 3 pole contactor. It looks like the schematic shows only the 2 hots being controlled and the key switch is wired into the third pole. Am I interpreting it correctly? Or is the key switch wired into the control coil?
 
The diagram shows two legs (Hot A / Hot B) being controlled and the third set of wires from the switch is the coil. Because the contactor I wound up with is 3 pole, I'll also control the neutral.from it even though the drawing doesn't show it.
 
Thanks, that makes sense now. I am just getting all my stuff together to build my box. I bought a 3 pole contactor because I wanted to break all three legs in case there is a incorrectly wired outlet somewhere in my shop that I haven't found yet. Like you, I was suprised on how big the 3 pole 50 amp contactors are compared to the 2 pole 30 amp ones. I may have to get a bigger box than the 12X12X8 that I picked up at HD.
 
Are you saving any space by using all (mostly) DIN products? Seems like if your doing a Kal clone it would be quite a bit of difference space wise using DIN mount.
 
The DIN is great because I can adjust locations as I figure out what goes where, and I can clip on extra components quickly, pull them out to wire up, and clip them back. Ease of installation is the primary advantage. As far as space, they sit up a few mm higher than if you bolted them straight to the back plate, so no saving there. Install is easy though. I used 3 screws per rail, so 9 total holes in the back plate for the ability to mount everything I need.

So, in short - do whatever makes you happy. I'm glad I wound up with DIN mountable components.
 
BadNewsBrewery said:
The DIN is great because I can adjust locations as I figure out what goes where, and I can clip on extra components quickly, pull them out to wire up, and clip them back. Ease of installation is the primary advantage. As far as space, they sit up a few mm higher than if you bolted them straight to the back plate, so no saving there. Install is easy though. I used 3 screws per rail, so 9 total holes in the back plate for the ability to mount everything I need.

So, in short - do whatever makes you happy. I'm glad I wound up with DIN mountable components.

Using DIN mountable components change which PID's you used?
 
Progress on the wiring is slow. Cut wire, crimp ring, solder, install. I'll focus on cleaning up the routing when it's done.

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