smack pack - starter?

I tasted my first brew a week into bottle conditioning, not ready, now it's 2 weeks I'll try it again but I don't expect it to be done
anyway today I purchased my second partial mash/extract kit from my local HBR and it contains liquid yeast rather that dry
I asked at the store if I needed to make a starter and they said that is wasn't necessary with wyeast smack packs
I know alot of ppl on this site say that is is absolutely necessary but my brew day is tomorrow
I assume it will be ok but my question is that is it really necessary to make a starter the wyeast FAQ says only in situations where conditions are not ideal
I'm going to brew anyway but I would like some input even though it seems like I can never get a clear answer about anything on these forums
is there actually a set method for making beer or what

I've brewed with dry yeast right out of the packet into the fermenter, liquid yeast right out of the vial into the carboy and always end up with gurgling within 18 hours. Someday I'll look into making starters and harvesting those dregs at the bottom of the carboy after three weeks but for now, it's all working without the extra steps. I think you'll be fine following the directions on the smackpack ahead of time and dumping it into your cooled wort.

Cheers

A lot depends on your OG.
If it is over 1.065 Wyeast and White Labs will say a started is required.
From what I've gathered at less than that the experienced folks say they get better, consistecy of results with a starter.
I not the expert, I've been successful pitching one Activator pack.
But in the future for OGs above 1.06 I'll surely use a starter. For lower OGs probably not.
Remember that more experienced folk than me will use one.
Best of luck.
You don't get a straight answer because there isn't just one answer. It is an experience thing.

If you pitch a liquid yeast without a starter, you will almost certainly be under pitching. It will still work (unless the yeast is dead), but you could get better results with a starter.
With a starter, you will get a shorter lag time, faster fermentation, better attenuation, and less off flavors caused by stressed yeasts.
See Fourteen Essential Questions About Yeast Starters and MB Raines, Ph.D. - Guide to Yeast Culturing for Homebrewers - Maltose Falcons Home Brewing Society (Los Angeles Homebrewing) for some good information on starters.
The first link makes much easier reading, while the second is more technical, but they both give excellent information.

-a.

I've seen this often.
Wyeast and White Labs say you don't need a starter for OG less than 1.060.
AJF's sources are well respected.
Wyeast and White labs say their yeast is prepared under ideal conditions so you can use an Activator or large vial. I figure they must know something too.

As I said the experienced folk seem to demand a starter anyway.

LSDracula said:

...wyeast FAQ says only in situations where conditions are not ideal

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In other words if the smack pack or vial didn't come from the production line that day.

You can't get a set answer because there is no set answer, making beer is a very dynamic process with a lot of variables. Gravity of wort is only one of them - aeration of wort, fermentation temperature, age of yeast package, size of batch, even composition of wort all can negatively affect your total attenuation. For this reason most experienced brewers will suggest the method with the highest probability for success for the most situations.

Making a starter with the liquid yeast package can help overcome several of the possible deficiencies I listed. Is it always necessary? Certainly not - it will still work most of the time - but it's a pretty simple procedure that increases your chances of a problem-free fermentation and lowers your risk of off-flavors. That's why it's suggested.

thanks for the positive advice i'm going to go ahead and try it today without the starter
obviosly I don't have time to make one now anyway
the beer I'm making is an amber cream ale so I don't expect to have an OG over 1.060 so I'm sure it will be fine
It's kinda weird though that beer brewing has been around for 6000 years and there still isn't one set method... lol
I guess its still a matter of experimentation
RDWHAHB
btw I tried my first batch, a pale ale, last night and I was very happy despite the mistakes I made along the way
I guess beer is pretty hard to screw up

Back in the day (I love saying that) the wyeast smack packs only mentioned making a starter in the fine print in a "you could try..." sort of thing. I've pitched many a beer with just the pack, low and higher gravity.

If you do be sure to really shake the heck out of it to oxygenate, the yeast will need it to multiply. And it will take longer for fermentation to get going.

I just thought I’d share my recent experience with a smack pack. Last Sunday, I was planning on brewing a Grain Belt Premium Lager clone. So, earlier in the day, I smacked the pack to activate it. Well, about 5 hours later it was still flat. Now it’s getting almost too late in the day to brew, because I have to work the next day. I decided to try a small starter with some water and priming sugar in a sanitized jar. I mixed it up and poured in the yeast. After a little while I saw some bubbles forming, but they went away shortly after they started. I checked on it the next morning before work and found that the yeast had all settled out to the bottom. Then I was thinking, maybe I killed it by letting it get too cold over the last couple of weeks being stored in my shop. (It’s been cold here in Minnesota this winter, -20s outside over the last few weeks)

I decided to pick up some new yeast on my way home from work on Tuesday morning at Northern Brewers. This time I bought dry yeast to try and some supplies to make a starter. When I got home, I decided to give the liquid yeast from Sunday another try in the proper starter. I poured off the liquid and saved the yeast slurry to start. And what do you know, within an hour the air lock was bubbling away.

I let it bubble all day and night and brewed on Wednesday. I used the original yeast that I started with because it was still bubbling away at brew time. I finally pitched the yeast at 3pm. We went to the Minnesota Wild game that night and got home around 11pm and the airlock was bubbling, slow but bubbling at a temp of 57-60 deg F. The next morning all bubbling had stopped and the vodka had equaled out in the S. Now I’m nervous again, but just walked away. I checked on it later and found that the bubbling had resumed. I checked it again this morning after work and it’s still bubbling away now at 47 deg F.

I’m assuming all is fine and now to decide what to brew next, as I have an empty primary and two empty secondary’s.

Coastarine said:

In other words if the smack pack or vial didn't come from the production line that day.

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Funny story - I am making a starter right now from a vial WLP500. The best before date on the vial said 6/14/2009. On the same vial it says, "best before date is 4 months after production date". I bought this yeast at my LHBS on 2/13/2009.

So technically, I have a yeast from the future! :rockin:

A starter is best, but this time I think you'll survive. Don't worry too much. I've done it and came out with good beer. But, usually I make a starter.

I'm likely going to do my first brew (all grain) sometime soon, and because of equipment constraints (size of pots, and volume of water my electric stove can boil) I'll be doing a slightly smaller batch; roughly 3.5 gallons.

I plan to use Wyeast Activator yeast (#1762 Belgian Abbey II). I'm assuming these are made with ~5 gal batches in mind - does this mean I can get away with brewing slightly higher gravity recipes (anticipated OG 1.065), without a starter, and still not underpitching? Or is that just simply not how this works?

A_M said:

I'm likely going to do my first brew (all grain) sometime soon, and because of equipment constraints (size of pots, and volume of water my electric stove can boil) I'll be doing a slightly smaller batch; roughly 3.5 gallons.

I plan to use Wyeast Activator yeast (#1762 Belgian Abbey II). I'm assuming these are made with ~5 gal batches in mind - does this mean I can get away with brewing slightly higher gravity recipes (anticipated OG 1.065), without a starter, and still not underpitching? Or is that just simply not how this works?

Click to expand...

In theory, yes, since you're diluting the yeast in less wort the concentration will be higher. For the exact numbers though you'd have to check those two links provided on the previous page

CnnmnSchnpps said:

In theory, yes, since you're diluting the yeast in less wort the concentration will be higher. For the exact numbers though you'd have to check those two links provided on the previous page

Click to expand...

Thanks!

I crunched some numbers based on the first link there, and I just ended up even more confused. Using their recommendation of "0.75 million cells of viable yeast, for every milliliter of wort, for every degree Plato", and doing the math "backwards"; starting with the ~100 billion yeast cell count of an Activator pack, and assuming a wort volume of 5 gallons, it seems that according to this you'd be "underpitching" if the OG of your wort is anything more than about 1.028!

This seems very odd considering the Activator is advertised as being made to "directly inoculate 5 gallons of standard strength ale wort (1.034-1.060 SG) with professional pitching rates".

Could this really be right? Is the mrmalty.com link extra conservative (staying very much on the safe side of underpitching), are Wyeast and White Labs advertising their products irresponsibly, or did I get my math completely wrong?

/ Andreas

This topic never fails to confuse people.
Wyeast says that their yeast is prepared under ideal conditions so you can use it as the pack reads.

They further say that the .75 to 1.5 million cells/ml/ degree Plato assumes harvested yeast ala a commercial brewer. Though these figures are pretty universally accepted.

The experienced folk here say it is better to use a starter because
1) Lots of yeast takes one chance for off flavors away.
2) They get more consistent results
3) The fermentation starts faster (That is good)
4) You don't know what your Activator pack went through to get to you so perhaps the yeast has suffered.
5) No one thinks a home brewer is likely to over pitch yeast.

I have successfully pitched one Activator for beers up to 1.06 (even higher, though I won't try that again). I think my LHBS has good turnover and the yeast seems in good shape. I see fermentation in 4 hours often.

I'm not the expert here, but that is what I know.

Regards