Bottles: Perpetually low carbonation

Okay, this is probably the 1,000,001 thread on this topic, but I can't seem to hit adequate carbonation in my bottles. I have bottled many different styles (american amber, cream ale, heffeweisen, bock, etc), and all of them seem to be seriously low in the carbonation department.

Some caveats:
- I don't use head as an indication of carb level
- I have attempted 4-6oz of dextrose for 4.5-4.75 gallons of beer, dissolved in
2 cups of water
- fermentation temps have been in the 68-74 range
- bottles have stayed @ 70-75 degrees for a minimum of 4 weeks
- very light carbonation result has been judged by no more than two steady streams of bubbles in columns from the bottom and a general flat mouthfeel
- this lack of carbonation is fairly even across the entire batch, with only minor variation, so I don't think it is my mixing technique
- I whirlpool the wort on top of the dextrose mixture in the bottling bucket


I bottle currently, and would like to nip this problem in the bud. Any help would be appreciated.

T

How long are you chilling before drinking?

I would let the bottles chill after conditioning for a couple days so all that pressure built up in the head space has a chance to go into solution.

EdWort said:

How long are you chilling before drinking?

I would let the bottles chill after conditioning for a couple days so all that pressure built up in the head space has a chance to go into solution.

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I typically leave the bottles in for at least 6 days. It does not seem to make a difference in the final product.

What do you mean that you "whirl the wort on top of the dextrose"?? How long are you stirring it? If it is for a long time, you might be degassing the beer of the CO2 already dissolved in solution, which would result in lower carbonation.

What is the source of your bottle caps? I have bought caps from a major HBS that leaked pressure, resulting in several undercarbonated beers. It's possible you were sold some ****ty caps with bad seals.

ReverseApacheMaster said:

What do you mean that you "whirl the wort on top of the dextrose"?? How long are you stirring it? If it is for a long time, you might be degassing the beer of the CO2 already dissolved in solution, which would result in lower carbonation.

What is the source of your bottle caps? I have bought caps from a major HBS that leaked pressure, resulting in several undercarbonated beers. It's possible you were sold some ****ty caps with bad seals.

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I position the siphon hose around the interior perimeter of the bottling bucket; the wort swirls at the bottom, mixing with the priming sugar. As to stirring, I usually give it a once about or two at most.

The caps have come from multiple vendors, so I don't think that is it; additionally, I have validated the crimp multiple times (not that I think that is it).

T

Different styles of beer or all one style? Darker and or higher FG take a little more carb as a general rule. From experiance...harder water makes carbing a little more challanging. You can condition your H20 or add a little more priming sugar.

how much head space do you leave in your bottles? You don't need a lot, but you need some! (IMO an inch and a half is good...)

I remember a thread where the fellow was filling to the brim and capping on the beer...

badhabit: Varities have varied; the amount of bottling sugar has not (much). I have left the heftier types (a heavy red, for example), longer (6+ weeks) with no luck. I use filtered water for everything (not quite RO, but close), but we don't have exceptionally hard water to start with. The Wit and Wheat that I have in bottles have been sitting for 2 months, and still haven't carbed much.

Hang Glider: I fill to the bottom of the lip, so that when the tube comes out, the top of the beer is at the shoulder of the bottle. AFAIK, this is the accepted level, no?

banesong said:

I fill to the bottom of the lip, so that when the tube comes out, the top of the beer is at the shoulder of the bottle. AFAIK, this is the accepted level, no?

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Shoulder of bottle should be fine. Mine are usually a third the way up the neck. The problem specific to fill height comes into play if you allow NO headspace...

How do you weigh the 5 ounces of corn sugar?

How long in fermentation and at what kind of temps? Are you filtering before you bottle?...Could you be doing something to kill or seriously reduce the volume of yeast in the bottle at the time of conditioning????

banesong said:

Hang Glider: I fill to the bottom of the lip, so that when the tube comes out, the top of the beer is at the shoulder of the bottle. AFAIK, this is the accepted level, no?

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The shoulder? That's way too much I think. Traditionally 1.25" from lip of bottle is what most fillers leave.

From an article in BYO from 1997-

Headspace. Another factor that will affect the level of carbonation in your bottle-conditioned beer is the amount of headspace you allow in the neck of the bottle above the beer. The CO2 from the bottle fermentation fills the headspace as well as going into the beer, so the more headspace you leave, the more CO2 ends up there. For a given amount of priming sugar, the greater the headspace, the lower the carbonation.

The ideal fill height is a matter of preference. High fills help to eliminate air from the headspace, helping you avoid oxidation. Lower fill levels give some protection against gushing and allow some leeway in carbonating. Sometimes over-carbonating can be corrected by cooling the beer as much as possible, gently prying the cap to release the pressure in the headspace, and then resealing the cap. This won’t work if there is no headspace.

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From another BYO article from 2002-

Over time, CO2 from the beer will diffuse out of solution and pressurize the headspace. This is why some homebrewers feel that it is best to minimize the amount of headspace in the bottles. The smaller the headspace, the less carbonation is lost from the beer to pressurize the headspace.

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I'd start with that, bottle a batch with the headspace at the traditional 1.25" and see.

I will need to review, but I fill pretty much to the lip of the bottle with the wand in; that leaves the level just about a third of the way up the neck, not the shoulder, sorry.

I don't filter or cold crash, so I should have plenty of yeast.

Again how long in fermentation and at what temp? Too long or too cold can kill enough yeast that your C02 level is low. Sounds like head space isn't the problem, particularly if you have tried a APA or an IPA and still see low carbination after 6 to 8 weeks.

badhabit said:

Again how long in fermentation and at what temp? Too long or too cold can kill enough yeast that your C02 level is low. Sounds like head space isn't the problem, particularly if you have tried a APA or an IPA and still see low carbination after 6 to 8 weeks.

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Sorry, missed that. 6-8 weeks in primary, at between 68-74 degrees (I don't have good temp control at the moment; ferm chiller project coming over the winter).

badhabit said:

Too long or too cold can kill enough yeast that your C02 level is low.

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What do you consider too long? I've had beer that were 6 months in primary that carbed up just fine.

Yeast rarely dies....it goes dormant, but unless it's in a high alcohol situation, it doesn't die.

Same with the cold. Below 50 for an ale it usually goes dormant, but unless you freeze the beer and possible burst the cells, the yeast isn't dead.

banesong said:

Sorry, missed that. 6-8 weeks in primary, at between 68-74 degrees (I don't have good temp control at the moment; ferm chiller project coming over the winter).

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So 8 weeks will not totaly kill all yeast at those temps for an ale yeast BUT it may not leave a lot for carbing or at least not as much as your taste would prefer. Try 4 weeks on a lighter brew and see what you think.

I am having similar results with my last few batches, and I am starting to suspect my bench capper. I got a used bench capper off craigslist, and my carbonation woes started about the same time I started using it. I think the bell is coming down to the bottle at a small angle, leaving a crappy seal.
Last batch I hit each bottle twice, spinning it 1/2 turn in between.
It's only 1 1/2 weeks in the bottle, so I don't know if it worked yet.

How are you cleaning the bottles?

If you use bleach, how well are you rinsing? -A tiny drop could kill the yeast.
& not clean enough may have it's own issues.

I use the dishwasher.

Badhabit - I just did a quick brew for a session - 3 weeks in primary for half, an additional week in secondary for dryhopping the other half.

gingerdawg - let me know how that turns out for you; I use a bench capper too.

Lemon - I validate the the bottles are clean (I use the swirl/rinse method after drinking, jet bottle washer and bottle brush if still cruddy). I then rinse with starsan immediately prior to filling.

Again, how are you measuring the priming sugar? I'm not sure I see that anywhere in the thread.

Yooper said:

Again, how are you measuring the priming sugar? I'm not sure I see that anywhere in the thread.

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I am measuring by weight. I have a small digital scale that I use for all weights in brewing. And I do tare out the bowl prior to measuring the priming sugar.

Sorry for the long pause; I have been on work travel. After leaving my last batch in for 7 days, the carbonation has been wonderful. I did use dry malt extract as the carbonation material this time instead of dextrose (I was out of dextrose ), so I don't know if that makes a difference. Viva la long fridge period!

That being said, I split the batch to dry hop half and mismeasured on the second half - I used 3 oz of DME thinking that it was dextrose; whoops! That made the carb level at somewhere around 1.8 vice the 2.5 I was looking for. Any chances of fixing it, you think?

TIA

T