Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

Brewed the Traditional Pious yesterday. Hit 1.090 on the nose. Used 2# D-180 and 1# D-90 and then added .25# Special B to try to account for using D-90 instead of all D-180. Also used 1 oz Carafa Special II. Added the syrups at flameout. It's pretty dark.

Also used Belgian Pilgrim instead of Northern Brewer.

FWIW, I did a single Hochkurz decoction as follows:
Doughed-in to hit 147* F and immediately pulled a 6 qt thick decoction.
Infused the decoction with 1 qt boiling water to hit 161* F and rested there for 5 min.
Boiled decoction 30 min.
Added decoction back to mash to hit 161* F for 30 min (total rest time @ 147* F was 50 min)
Infused with almost boiling water to mash-out @ 167* F.
I've done this decoction several times and it goes very smoothly now.

I pitched @ 64* F and have held it there since (the batch had not taken off this morning but the FFT took off last night). But I must admit, this fermentation schedule has me concerned. I just don't want a bunch of fusels. Any ideas why this can be fermented so warm and not get fusels?

SpanishCastleAle said:

Brewed the Traditional Pious yesterday. Hit 1.090 on the nose. Used 2# D-180 and 1# D-90 and then added .25# Special B to try to account for using D-90 instead of all D-180. Also used 1 oz Carafa Special II. Added the syrups at flameout. It's pretty dark.

Also used Belgian Pilgrim instead of Northern Brewer.

FWIW, I did a single Hochkurz decoction as follows:
Doughed-in to hit 147* F and immediately pulled a 6 qt thick decoction.
Infused the decoction with 1 qt boiling water to hit 161* F and rested there for 5 min.
Boiled decoction 30 min.
Added decoction back to mash to hit 161* F for 30 min (total rest time @ 147* F was 50 min)
Infused with almost boiling water to mash-out @ 167* F.
I've done this decoction several times and it goes very smoothly now.

I pitched @ 64* F and have held it there since (the batch had not taken off this morning but the FFT took off last night). But I must admit, this fermentation schedule has me concerned. I just don't want a bunch of fusels. Any ideas why this can be fermented so warm and not get fusels?

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Castle, on our last batch (Variation 007...not published yet), we permitted the temps to rise and fall naturally. We still hit our FG of 1.012. The yeast will rise to temp depending on your pitch rate. At 2L stir-plate it should reach about 82-83F. After 10 weeks on the rack no fusels at all during bottling this past Saturday. At 10.2% ABV on the nose you could barely detect any alcohol at all...very beautiful brew Fruity, smooth, chewy, lingering dark Belgian ale with smooth maltiness and perfect hopiness for the style. We went heretical on this brew and used H. Mittelfrau instead of Styrian Goldings. In 6 months we hope to let the judges decide on this and Variation 006. Our upcoming Variation 008 will use Strisselspalt but we will no longer call it a Westvleteren 12 Clone.

Your decoction and mash schedule sound great. You should have a very chewy and delicious brew. The mix of D-180 and D-90 will be fantastic.

BTW what was your pitch rate and O2 prep? Did you you use Servomyces?

Since_Uuz_Up said:

Castle, on our last batch (Variation 007...not published yet), we permitted the temps to rise and fall naturally. We still hit our FG of 1.012. The yeast will rise to temp depending on your pitch rate. At 2L stir-plate it should reach about 82-83F. After 10 weeks on the rack no fusels at all during bottling this past Saturday. At 10.2% ABV on the nose you could barely detect any alcohol at all...very beautiful brew Fruity, smooth, chewy, lingering dark Belgian ale with smooth maltiness and perfect hopiness for the style. We went heretical on this brew and used H. Mittelfrau instead of Styrian Goldings. In 6 months we hope to let the judges decide on this and Variation 006. Our upcoming Variation 008 will use Strisselspalt but we will no longer call it a Westvleteren 12 Clone.

Your decoction and mash schedule sound great. You should have a very chewy and delicious brew. The mix of D-180 and D-90 will be fantastic.

BTW what was your pitch rate and O2 prep? Did you you use Servomyces?

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Thanks.

Yeast had a slight snafu. I brewed a Patersbier a couple weeks ago using a 1.4L starter and a pack of 3787. Racked it Friday night but didn't have any room in any of my fridges for it, so since I was doing a D-rest on a Doppelbock I brewed earlier I stuck it in the freezer of my lager fridge. I had some leftover wort in that freezer that had thawed so I thought it was at a safe temp. Woke the next morning to find slushy-ice in the container. Pulled it out and let it thaw, then stuck it back in (at a slightly higher temp). Since I wasn't sure if I had damaged/killed the yeast I just pitched almost all of the cake. The FFT (fast ferment test) started last night so apparently the yeast were fine. I just used Wyeast yeast nutrient. I did not add any extra O2, whatever it got from going through a strainer into the carboy (tons of foam) is all it got. I had intended to use pure O2 through a stone (post-pitch) but since it appeared I had over-pitched I did not. I could use pure O2 through a stone today if that will help.

SpanishCastleAle said:

Thanks.

I could use pure O2 through a stone today if that will help.

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Another amazing feat for Westmalle yeast! I think you still have time for a 70-80 second slow blast of O2. Just our opinion but I definitely would. Hitting the FG needs the momentum.

Since_Uuz_Up said:

Another amazing feat for Westmalle yeast! I think you still have time for a 70-80 second slow blast of O2. Just our opinion but I definitely would. Hitting the FG needs the momentum.

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Thanks.

Lesson learned: When you increase the temp on your lager fridge for a d-rest, the compressor won't come on for quite a while and stuff in the freezer can thaw. But when the fridge finally reaches that higher temp, the compressor will come back on and might freeze stuff. Just glad I thought to check it the next morning.

OK so - just pulled a gravity sample - just a fuzz under 1.020 for F.G (s.g 1.096). So by my calculations that is pretty much 79% attenuation - which is what the yeast says it will do.

Do you think I should reintroduce some yeast to try to bring it down a bit? Will that even work?

Tasted the beer - it is really good. first like a dark fruit chocolate note then warming alcohol. Very complex and I was drinking it warm. Really looking forward to this when it is done!

Thanks for the help

You are correct on your calculations for attenuation, but for this beer you really want to be hitting at least 84% attenuation, which the yeast is capable of doing given the right circumstances. What temperature did you mash at?
Just give it some more time and let it stay warm and it should attenuate out.

saq said:

You are correct on your calculations for attenuation, but for this beer you really want to be hitting at least 84% attenuation, which the yeast is capable of doing given the right circumstances. What temperature did you mash at?
Just give it some more time and let it stay warm and it should attenuate out.

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I mashed at 150F.

Actually I brought the batch to a warmer room and brought the temp up to 70 ish last night and I gave it a little sloshing while carrying. This morning I am seeing fermentation through the airlock, though slow. So hopefully that will bring me through to the end of fermentation.

I won't settle for less than 1.015! (84% attenuation)

FWIW, using the decoction schedule I posted above my FFT hit 1.0125 (OG was 1.090), just a hair above target. The actual batch is still chugging away @ ~80* F so not sure where it will finish but my batches usually hit very close to the FFT number.

SpanishCastleAle said:

FWIW, using the decoction schedule I posted above my FFT hit 1.0125 (OG was 1.090), just a hair above target. The actual batch is still chugging away @ ~80* F so not sure where it will finish but my batches usually hit very close to the FFT number.

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SpanishCastle,

What was your pitch rate, nutrient, and O2 treatment?

Since_Uuz_Up said:

SpanishCastle,

What was your pitch rate, nutrient, and O2 treatment?

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It was most of a cake of from a ~1.052 Patersbier (remember the partially frozen washed yeast surprise I mentioned earlier?). Probably around 200mL of settled yeast with some trub. Heaping 1/2 tsp Wyeast yeast nutrient and no extra O2. You had suggested giving it a shot of O2 thru stone after pitching but by the time I got home that day I had a healthy krausen so I just let it be. I know it's OK to add O2 that early but just thought it would be OK since I likely overpitched a bit. The batch got some aeration when going through the strainer and dropping into the carboy (tons of foam) but the FFT didn't get any of that; but the FFT was on a stir-plate the whole time (and was WAY overpitched).

SpanishCastleAle said:

It was most of a cake of from a ~1.052 Patersbier (remember the partially frozen washed yeast surprise I mentioned earlier?). Probably around 200mL of settled yeast with some trub. Heaping 1/2 tsp Wyeast yeast nutrient and no extra O2. You had suggested giving it a shot of O2 thru stone after pitching but by the time I got home that day I had a healthy krausen so I just let it be. I know it's OK to add O2 that early but just thought it would be OK since I likely overpitched a bit. The batch got some aeration when going through the strainer and dropping into the carboy (tons of foam) but the FFT didn't get any of that; but the FFT was on a stir-plate the whole time (and was WAY overpitched).

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Wow, that's a lot of active yeast. Adding O2 might have created a small explosion .

Just a question. While I am cellaring my brew, would there be any benefit to lagering this (i.e. 32-33F) for the tertiary conditioning? I assume cold conditioning doesn't work as well on ales, but I don't actually know the answer.

I have a yeast refridge which could convenient hold two cornies of the west 12 clone. My current basement temps are a bit higher this time of year, and I am guessing 60F is about average instead of the recommended 50F for cellaring.

Any advice? Should I leave it as is?

The Belgians typically cold condition their ales. They call it "lagering", but usally this means cold conditioning at about 50F. From what I understand, you want the top-fermenting yeast to go to sleep slowly, so you get the benefit of continued yeast metabolism and lowered temperature.

If you have the space and equipment to cold condition for a few weeks, then this will improve the beer, but I don't think the difference will be dramatic compared with just letting it mature at 60F.

You probably should re-yeast before bottle conditioning.

According to Stan Hieronymus, Westvleteren "lagers" the 12 at 50F for 8 to 10 weeks.

Yeah I read they "lagered them" but didn't catch that the lagering is 50F - thanks for the info. I will likely just leave it at 60F then if that is the general consensus.

I am still trying to decide if I will naturally carb (and with what, belgian candi syrup, etc), or force carb. If I naturally carb I will absolutely reintroduce yeast.

I guess dumb question, but if you naturally carb with sugar, candy sugar, ect... and add yeast, don't you risk bottle bombs?

CidahMastah said:

Yeah I read they "lagered them" but didn't catch that the lagering is 50F - thanks for the info. I will likely just leave it at 60F then if that is the general consensus.

I am still trying to decide if I will naturally carb (and with what, belgian candi syrup, etc), or force carb. If I naturally carb I will absolutely reintroduce yeast.

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Between the two methods I have to say I think bottle conditioning seems to have the better effect on flavor. We use 40-41 grams/gallon of candi syrup. We prefer to use D-180. Since the Westvleteren 12 has such a high ABV most of the yeast is exhausted so a re-pitch is mandatory for carbing. We use another 1-Liter stir-plate pitch of a Westmalle culture from the original wort but also decant before re-pitching. This method has worked very well for us in every batch.

Since_Uuz_Up said:

Between the two methods I have to say I think bottle conditioning seems to have the better effect on flavor. We use 40-41 grams/gallon of candi syrup. We prefer to use D-180. Since the Wesvleteren 12 has such a high ABV most of the yeast is exhausted so a re-pitch is mandatory for carbing. We use another 1-Liter stir-plate pitch of a Westmalle culture from the original wort but also decant before re-pitching. This method has worked very well for us in every batch.

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Thanks for the detailed info. You use a 1 liter stir plate for a 5 g batch? You carb at the end of the the 8-10 weeks?

Thanks and much appreciate for the hard numbers

CidahMastah said:

Thanks for the detailed info. You use a 1 liter stir plate for a 5 g batch? You carb at the end of the the 8-10 weeks?

Thanks and much appreciate for the hard numbers

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Yes and yes. Our racking period is also 10 weeks at 57-58F.

A 1 L stir plate starter is probably excessive, and may eventually contribute noticable autolysis off-flavors.

Westmalle inoculates at 2 million cells per mL for refermentation in the bottle, which comes out to about 38 billion cells for 5 gallons. Generally you want at least 1 million cells per mL. According to Mr. Malty, you would need about 19 mL of slurry.

I brewed the candisyrup.com recipe not too long ago and I thought I'd share a few things I learned. I pitched a non-stir plate starter made to mrmalty specs. I oxygenated the beer with a williams brewing O2 wand. In 5 hours or less, it was chugging like mad. After a day I ramped up to 83 and kept it there for 5 days. At 83, it really went nuts. After 5 days, I took a gravity reading. It was already down to nearly terminal gravity, and the yeast was already dropping out. I tasted it, and it tasted great. A little bit sweet and boozy, but then again, it was only 5 days old.

Here's what I learned:

You can use a chest freezer to ferment this beer. I also used a thermowell and JC for accurate temp readings. Do not set your freezer to turn on at all. I had mine set to kick in at 84. Unfortunately, the freezer walls stay cold, so when it kicked in, it brought it down to 76. You can heat the beer up by bringing a big pot of water to boil, and then placing it inside the chest freezer. It generally raised the beer temp by one degree per hour. Then it should hold steady for about 12 hours. I did this once a day and kept it between 80-83 degrees.



I made a blowoff/thermowell that worked pretty well.

All you should need is a fresh tube pitched at bottling or some that was reserved from fermentation that was refreshed in some wort prior to bottling.

sfrisby said:

I guess dumb question, but if you naturally carb with sugar, candy sugar, ect... and add yeast, don't you risk bottle bombs?

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not if you measure the correct amountof priming sugar/belgian candi etc.

orangehero said:

A 1 L stir plate starter is probably excessive, and may eventually contribute noticable autolysis off-flavors.

Westmalle inoculates at 2 million cells per mL for refermentation in the bottle, which comes out to about 38 billion cells for 5 gallons. Generally you want at least 1 million cells per mL. According to Mr. Malty, you would need about 19 mL of slurry.

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so by your numbers I would need 76billion cells - since I have just a fuzz under 10 gallons total after loss of volume due to trub, evaporation/ etc. during fermentation.

By my handy chart that I drew up that is roughly 4.4g of yeast cake. A basic 1 liter starter makes about 8.6g of yeast cake from my table notes, so it looks like that is a bit over shot what the malty calculator asks for.

Now I just need to figure out how how many volumes that (40-41g) dark candi will carb the brew up to.

I plan to:
1. Force carb one keg of the batch
2. Naturally carb one keg of the batch (will use a bottling gun to bottle it in 22's)

Looking forward to it, though I do have several more weeks before I will be ready to do all this. Looking forward to it.

SpanishCastleAle said:

I pitched @ 64* F and have held it there since (the batch had not taken off this morning but the FFT took off last night). But I must admit, this fermentation schedule has me concerned. I just don't want a bunch of fusels. Any ideas why this can be fermented so warm and not get fusels?

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Just kegged it today and...no fusels. I'm surprised how good it tastes already. Smells wonderful if not a bit subdued on the yeast-driven aromas (probably from over-pitching).

SpanishCastleAle said:

Just kegged it today and...no fusels. I'm surprised how good it tastes already. Smells wonderful if not a bit subdued on the yeast-driven aromas (probably from over-pitching).

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Different yeasts behave differently at different temperatures, Belgian yeasts are a lot more flexible with temperatures because they are a lot more primitive. When the English and Germans started isolating yeast strains before and after Pasteur's theories on microbiology the Belgians decided they liked their funky, estery, spicey, flavorful yeasts and didn't go along with the super pure clean ales and lagers starting to come about.
WLP001 at anything over 70f would be a mess, but WLP530 can go up to 82f easily without any at all. WY3711 and WY3724 prefer high 80s low 90s. Don't trust the yeast manufacturers "temperature ranges" because on every single one of these yeasts they are way, waaaaay off.

Thanks saq that's good information. I'm about to do a Roggenbier followed by an Aventinus Schneider-Weisse clone from the cake using Wyeast 3333 German Wheat yeast. Do you know if a yeast like that behaves similarly?

How do you guys think this beer will be like with WLP500?

I've brewed this exact recipe with WLP530 about a year ago, and it's fantastic! Just wanted to try something new

I don't do wheat beers so I don't have any experience with that yeast, but as far as I know they all need under 70f fermentation temps for optimal flavors.
I don't think WLP500, 550 and 570 make good quads. 530 is really the king of that style and 540 isn't bad either.

Well, WLP500 isn't exactly a wheat yeast. It is the yeast Chimay uses, and according to wyeast it is suitable for Belgian Dark Strong Ale.

According to Brew Like a Monk it can be used as high as 29 degrees Celsius (85 F). Chimay ferments up to 28 C (82F) with their dubbel.

SpanishCastleAle was talking about wheat yeasts.

SpanishCastleAle said:

Just kegged it today and...no fusels. I'm surprised how good it tastes already. Smells wonderful if not a bit subdued on the yeast-driven aromas (probably from over-pitching).

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I can toast to that

saq said:

SpanishCastleAle was talking about wheat yeasts.

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Aha, that makes sense I read the entire post as a reply to my question.

Going to brew this later in the week. Clearly it isn't an issue as everyone loves this recipe as is, but does anyone else see 3oz's hops a little light for a beer this big?

No.

sfrisby said:

Going to brew this later in the week. Clearly it isn't an issue as everyone loves this recipe as is, but does anyone else see 3oz's hops a little light for a beer this big?

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Not for the style, and especially for this beer. This is an attempt at cloning Westvleteren 12. If you have ever had this beer, it is very subtle on the hops, and acts as an enhancer of other flavors rather than to be its own note.

And also consider that the FG is right around where a lot of beers finish, even though it starts way higher. Some people consider the IBU:FG ratio a better ratio to use than the ole IBU:OG (I think they're both useful and both can 'break down' in extreme cases, like IBU:OG does in this beer).

Thanks

sfrisby said:

Going to brew this later in the week. Clearly it isn't an issue as everyone loves this recipe as is, but does anyone else see 3oz's hops a little light for a beer this big?

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Too much. The flavors of this quad are a near perfect balance of malt/yeast esters/maillard/hops (in that order). Other styles of high gravity beers call for higher bittering rates but not for this style.

Since uuz up,

Got your candy syrup for this. Looking forward to it.