Saison

I'm making a saison, I'm really wanting to make a basic, more historic style. Whats the one most important ingredients that makes a saison? Spices, Fruity, Grains?


Anything but yeast. Can't wait for the answers.

What do you mean by "anything but yeast"? Saison yeast is an extremely yeast-centric style, so don't skimp on that.

Otherwise, it depends on the direction you are going. I don't like adding spices or fruit to saisons, and I think history backs me up on this one. Most of the classic malt bills would be straight continental pilsner, perhaps with a bit of wheat. Don't be afraid of the table sugar if you can't get it dry enough. Mash as low as your system can handle.

Taygel said:

I'm making a saison, I'm really wanting to make a basic, more historic style. Whats the one most important ingredients that makes a saison? Spices, Fruity, Grains?

Anything but yeast. Can't wait for the answers.

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Yeah. It's kind of all about the yeast. It should finish so dry that you won't be able to pick out what makes up the grist as easily as you would with a standard American ale or something. Try 80% Belgian pils 15%Vienna and 5% wheat with 3711. A little caravienne or caramunich for color is good too. Or if you go with 3724 try the same grist but adjust it to fit 15% sugar and ferment warm. If you do 3724 you could even finish it with some Brett to dry it out.

I only meant that I knew the yeast is a important factor...I'm thinking, keep it simple....but that other side of me is wanting to think outside the box!

Here is the recipe:

Simple Saison all grain

8 lbs of Belgian Pilsner Malt
1/2 lb of Carawheat malt
Willamette Hops...still not sure as to when and how much
White Labs Belgian Saison Blend....already going crazy with a starter!

Possible additions: Different malts, Seville Oranges, Acid malt, Grains of paridise, I'm thinking no spices. But maybe nothing added at all. Advice?

Taygel said:

I only meant that I knew the yeast is a important factor...I'm thinking, keep it simple....but that other side of me is wanting to think outside the box!

Here is the recipe:

Simple Saison all grain

8 lbs of Belgian Pilsner Malt
1/2 lb of Carawheat malt
Willamette Hops...still not sure as to when and how much
White Labs Belgian Saison Blend....already going crazy with a starter!

Possible additions: Different malts, Seville Oranges, Acid malt, Grains of paridise, I'm thinking no spices. But maybe nothing added at all. Advice?

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In my book, saisons are there to showcase yeast character. Anything else you add takes away from that. I like jmo88's idea of using a smidge of vienna to add a smidge of malt backbone, but otherwise I'd say keep it very, very simple. Saisons are already outside the proverbial box. I've not used that yeast, but I've heard reasonably good things about it.

I like to keep it simple, no spices. Pilsner and a little Wheat. I would not use any american hops. I like Styrian and Hallertau.

For me the fermentation temperature is the most important. I use the Dupont strain, pitch at 75, raising the temp about 1 degree F each day, until I hit 86. I hold it at 86 as long as it takes to get down to 1.002-3. I've found that rousing the yeast really helps drop the last few points.

NO spices. Mash very low, 5.2 pH, ferment VERY warm. And RDWHAHB when the yeast takes it's time finishing up.

Basic Pilsner malt with a hint of vienna and some wheat. I've heard of up to 20% wheat, but most people keep it under that. It's basically what people had on their farms, and I doubt that Saisons were very strict on the style parameters.

Thanks for the help everyone. I'm taking your advice and adding some veinna malt to the recipe and i'm going to ferment higher in temp.

Final Recipe:
8 lbs Belgian pilsner malt
1 1/2 lbs vienna Malt
1/2 CaraWheat Malt

1 oz willamette 60min
.5 oz " @ 30 min
.5 oz " @ 5 min

White Labs Belgian Saison Blend.....Starter made 3 days ago.

Like you guys said......mash low, ferment high. Done!
Thanks Everyone.
Brewing today! Last minute ideas welcome.

Cheers
Nick

brewhappy said:

I like to keep it simple, no spices. Pilsner and a little Wheat. I would not use any american hops. I like Styrian and Hallertau.

For me the fermentation temperature is the most important. I use the Dupont strain, pitch at 75, raising the temp about 1 degree F each day, until I hit 86. I hold it at 86 as long as it takes to get down to 1.002-3. I've found that rousing the yeast really helps drop the last few points.

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That is pretty much my plan for saisons as well.

I've made a saison recently (currently on wk2 of bottle conditioning).

Went for:
48% Maris Otter
48% Pilsner
2% Wheat Malt
2% Crystal 50l

Hops were classic Belgian......... Citra and Amarillo

Wasn't sure if I'd manage the right temperature etc for the Saison yeast so opted for WLP550 (achouffe). Took it from 1.058 to 1.010 (83% attenuation iirc) mashed at 148F.

Went a bit higher on the IBU at 35, and used FWH and mostly citra for bittering and then toward the end I started using more amarillo and cut well back on the citra. Dry hopped a little citra as well.

Tried whilst bottling and it was dry and had a really good farmhouse funkiness to it despite the hop choice. We went with the citra and slightly matlier grain bill to get something in the same vein as the Brooklyn Sorachi Ace. As far as spicing goes... I wouldn't bother with this style. Maybe if you're desperate to spice, try light amounts coriander, orange peel and maybe ever pepper (depending on compatibility of your yeast aroma/flavour).

ChillWill said:

I've made a saison recently (currently on wk2 of bottle conditioning).

Went for:
48% Maris Otter
48% Pilsner
1% Wheat Malt
1% Crystal 50l

Hops were classic Belgian......... Citra and Amarillo

Wasn't sure if I'd manage the right temperature etc for the Saison yeast so opted for WLP550 (achouffe). Took it from 1.058 to 1.010 (83% attenuation iirc) mashed at 148F.

Went a bit higher on the IBU at 35, and used FWH and mostly citra for bittering and then toward the end I started using more amarillo and cut well back on the citra. Dry hopped a little citra as well.

Tried whilst bottling and it was dry and had a really good farmhouse funkiness to it despite the hop choice. We went with the citra and slightly matlier grain bill to get something in the same vein as the Brooklyn Sorachi Ace. As far as spicing goes... I wouldn't bother with this style. Maybe if you're desperate to spice, try light amounts coriander, orange peel and maybe ever pepper (depending on compatibility of your yeast aroma/flavour).

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That reminds me of something like Tank 7 of the Smokestack series. It's a very grapefruity saison. It's odd at first because you expect noble or EKG for the hops but the amarillo comes through and really makes for a remarkable beer. I bet it turns out great.

MalFet said:

What do you mean by "anything but yeast"? Saison yeast is an extremely yeast-centric style, so don't skimp on that.

Otherwise, it depends on the direction you are going. I don't like adding spices or fruit to saisons, and I think history backs me up on this one. Most of the classic malt bills would be straight continental pilsner, perhaps with a bit of wheat. Don't be afraid of the table sugar if you can't get it dry enough. Mash as low as your system can handle.

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I am also formulating my first saison. When you say mash as low as you can go, what temp range are you talking about?

I think the 140's JLW.

Have a read around, I've seen someone saying they were trying lower temperatures. I think 146-148F is a good place to start. I'm happy with 1.058 -> 1.010 from a 148F mash (well, attenuation wise, not sure about taste yet as it's not ready). If you start with a lower OG you may find it becoming VERY dry.

I've just put a bottle in the cellar for a few days (after 2 weeks at 70F), it won't be ready but I need to see how my 3.5vol CO2 is going (as I've never carbed anywhere near this high).

Pic in a glass from a sample I took whilst bottling:

147 for 90 minutes will give you a more fermentable wort. I've also done 70 mins at 144 and 10 mins at 155.

I think I'll try 147 @ 90 min. What about sparge temp? I usually do one batch sparge around 170 for 10. Sometimes I'll do two for higher gravity beers. For a saison would you also go lower temp for the sparge?

JLW said:

I think I'll try 147 @ 90 min. What about sparge temp? I usually do one batch sparge around 170 for 10. Sometimes I'll do two for higher gravity beers. For a saison would you also go lower temp for the sparge?

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Your sparge water temp shouldn't really be affecting conversion. I cold sparge all of my beers cold and can get both low and high fermentability. Particularly with a 90min mash, it shouldn't matter.

We are thinking about adding a final brew to our schedule prior to leaving Beijing for the summer, and a saison would be ideal I think as it is hot as hell here and it wouldn't be a problem keeping the fermentation temp relatively high. Question is - we would rack to the fermenter on June 11th and it would sit there until the 6th of August or so - is that too long to keep in the primary? Once we get back from summer break, we would throw it into kegs. Comments?

beerspitnight said:

We are thinking about adding a final brew to our schedule prior to leaving Beijing for the summer, and a saison would be ideal I think as it is hot as hell here and it wouldn't be a problem keeping the fermentation temp relatively high. Question is - we would rack to the fermenter on June 11th and it would sit there until the 6th of August or so - is that too long to keep in the primary? Once we get back from summer break, we would throw it into kegs. Comments?

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Sounds fine. 7 weeks should be no issue, it'll probably be a great beer.

I like my saisons as dry as possible. I can typically get it down to 1.004. I do a 90 minute mash at 145.

If you want it to be "historic" then it needs to be relatively low alcohol. Today's saisons are much higher in alcohol than history dictates. Shoot for around 5% alcohol.

Your malt bill should be simple. Pils and Wheat are all you really need. If you want it golden in color then use a very small amount of a dark crystal, instead of a larger amount of a lighter crystal. Using something like vienna malt is good for a malt backbone, but again don't use much.

You can have a nice hop profile, but as stated before it detracts from the yeast profile.

I recently made this saison. And it turned out amazing. The hop profile was a little more assertive than I was hoping, but is still a fantastic beer.

For your yeast the Wyeast 3711 is my absolute favorite. It doesn't crap out at 1.020 like the Dupont strain does, and it has a great flavor profile, slightly fruity and some nice spiciness.

JLW said:

I think I'll try 147 @ 90 min. What about sparge temp? I usually do one batch sparge around 170 for 10. Sometimes I'll do two for higher gravity beers. For a saison would you also go lower temp for the sparge?

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It doesn't really matter, I've sparged at 170 and at colder temps. I haven't noticed a big difference. I usually do 2 smaller sparges. If you do a lower sparge temp essentially you will keep converting into the kettle until the enzymes denature.

One other thing that I think makes a difference is a good 75 sec shot of pure oxygen just prior to pitching. I think this really helps you get the gravity to finish low. I also throw in more nutrient than normal for saisons.

Homebrewtastic said:

I like my saisons as dry as possible. I can typically get it down to 1.004. I do a 90 minute mash at 145.

If you want it to be "historic" then it needs to be relatively low alcohol. Today's saisons are much higher in alcohol than history dictates. Shoot for around 5% alcohol.

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Very true. Maybe even lower.

The saison I've made was never meant to be 'true' to the style. Bit like most American / New World IPA's aren't particularly 'true' to the IPA style.

One thing to note though, is make sure you're taking high attenuation into account. I forgot and used an internet OG calculator which simply put high attentuation ~77%. Aiming for 6% but with high attenuation and lots of priming sugar for high carbonation I think it's hit 7%. Oops

Brewing went well, ended up only adding some Veinna malt to the recipe. Mashed low and long(145 for 90 minutes) Mashed out 168. Ended up with 1.061. Not bad.

New question:

I bought a heating wrap(Fermwrap), the kind that wraps around the carboy. Anyone have any solutions on to keeping heat on it without a temp overide and thermoter?

I guess i'll keep checking on it over the next week or so. I really want to showcase the yeast and its ****yness by fermenting warm...high 70's or low 80s. Any ideas as to how quick this wrap heats 5 gallons up?

Will it keep going to say 90's if i forget?!!!

I'm new to saisons but I have read a lot on them. Correct me if I am wrong here, but I believe it is ok to ferment saioson's into the mid to upper 80's and some brewers ferment in the 90's

Where did you get your Fermwrap?

Taygel said:

Brewing went well, ended up only adding some Veinna malt to the recipe. Mashed low and long(145 for 90 minutes) Mashed out 168. Ended up with 1.061. Not bad.

New question:

I bought a heating wrap(Fermwrap), the kind that wraps around the carboy. Anyone have any solutions on to keeping heat on it without a temp overide and thermoter?

I guess i'll keep checking on it over the next week or so. I really want to showcase the yeast and its ****yness by fermenting warm...high 70's or low 80s. Any ideas as to how quick this wrap heats 5 gallons up?

Will it keep going to say 90's if i forget?!!!

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I pitch at 75 and raise it 1 degree each day until I hit 86 and then hold it at 86 until I reach FG.

I use a fermwrap too, I have a couple of them actually, I love them. I use a ranco controller.

I would be very careful about leaving the fermwrap just plugged in all the time, it's really going to be difficult to maintain a consistent temperature, which is important. If it warms up too much, over 90ish for more than a couple weeks, you risk autolysis.

I'm not well versed in the many other methods of temperature control because I've always used a controller.

I just racked my recent saison to secondary, it was at 1.004. It was in the primary for 18 days. The sample tastes great!

Good luck, I'm interested to see how it turns out. Actually that reminds me of a "Super" Saison I did a while back. I had to use the controller on a different beer and I pitched it much lower than I do now. The temps during fermentation were all over the place. Initially it was sour and had green apple flavors. After a month in a keg and then another month in bottle's it actually turned out good. All the off flavors went away and I just drank my last one last night in fact. So if it doesn't turn out right away just let it sit for a couple months and see what happens! Gotta love the magic of beer!

Just posted the Saison I've done recently, hardly true to the style but it has turned out so well I'm definitely making this regularly! Couldn't stop smiling while trying a bottle after only two weeks conditioning.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f71/new-world-saison-236779/#post2797371

Well woke up this morning to it pretty warm(89)..so my solution was to wrap a towel around it, insert that bulky probe inbetween the glass and and towel and then I wrap the ferwrap around all that. I set it to 80. Hopefully that will keep warmer that usual.

For easy temp control (raised in this case) I use a 20gal party bucket filled with water and the fermentor is submerged in the bucket. Then I use a 100w aquarium heater to keep the temp steady adjusted according to my thermapen which is actually VERY close to the temp dial.

I just need to get a temp controller and use this method in the winter in my garage for lagers. That way I can regulate the heater below 70F and use the cold of my garage to keep the temp in check.

Update on sasion:
Went from 1.051 to 1.008, Fermented for a week at 80 degrees! Tasted funky and delicious. Cant wait to have it cold and carbed!

i did a saison with acid malt a couple years back. sounded like a good idea at the time, but just 4 ounces in five gallons left a notable mark that wasn't very desirable.

Better late than never i suppose!

Saison has become one of my favorite beers. I brewed my first about 4-5 weeks ago, and opened a bottle after 9 days. I couldn't wait. It was excellent! I had brewed with Mexican piloncillo sugar. I don't know why. I just wanted to do something different from my usual rigid experimentation. WOW! So good. I don't even know what the piloncillo is doing to the saison, so I brew it again with table sugar. We have to wait for that one.
I don't have a way to raise the temp, so it just sat in my basement at 65F to ferment. Still, it was excellent. I'm very happy, and I will be doing aa lot of experimentation with this style.