Graff (Malty, slightly hopped cider)

dunnright00 said:

I have some apple/grape juice that I was going to use for a batch of apfelwein, but now I'm thinking I want to make graff.

You think using the apple/grape will be good, or will it make it funky?

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What's to lose? Besides 2 weeks?

Give it a shot! If it tastes awesome, post the recipe!

Bottled today at 1.001. Just had tonsils and some nose surgery so I can't taste or smell. My mom(Who knows English cider) liked it. But apparently its not ready yet.
I bottled with 2.77 ounces of Extra light DME, for 1.6 volumes of carbonation.

Brandon, Ok, I think I am gonna make up some of this and give it a try. I know you have made Jay Huffs Apple Bee Clone, as have I...it was a bit too dark and sour for my tastes...can you give me some insight as to what this finished product tastes like compared to Jay's??

Thanks much
Dan

Random thoughts on leaving this un-carbed and left to age a bit?

brazedowl said:

Random thoughts on leaving this un-carbed and left to age a bit?

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I saved a gallon and stored it in the fridge about two weeks ago. I have a friend that wanted to try some, but she wanted me to leave it flat for some reason.

It tastes just like the kegged batch, just flat.

I like dry cider much better than carbed cider. Thats why I slightly carbed mine.
Its more of a British style cider, IMO

I have to admit, I approached this recipe with great scepticism. Not because it didn't look good but after the hype that the Apfelwein recipe got I had my doubts. People were going nuts about that recipe and lets be honest, Apfelwein sucks to the limit.

I pulled a sample this afternoon and I must say, the maltiness is offset not so much by the bitterness but rather by the tartness of the apples. This is a very unconventional but interesting and pleasant balance, it's still in the fermenter but I think this stuff is going to be a winner.

MarshyTheKid said:

I like dry cider much better than carbed cider. Thats why I slightly carbed mine.
Its more of a British style cider, IMO

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Alrighty... time for still Graff lets see what happens

I made this last night and used the recipe exactly as presented in the first post. By the time that I boiled (a gentle boil) for 30 minutes and then cooled, my wort had the consistency of maple syrup. Cold maple syrup.

So I added a half gallon of water, reboiled for 10 minutes and tasted it. It did not taste scorched, so I used it.

I will be interested to see how this turns out.

Eric

i did this recipe last night also, used fresh unpasterized cider, followed everything in the original recipe but i added 1 oz of special b as i really like the taste of that malt in my brown ales. I used willamette hops also again since i really love brown ales, porters, stouts etc.

my question is that if i want to add whole cinnamon sticks, how do i sanitize them, or do i just toss them in? should i wait to do a secondary with them?

So I tried mine today, since I can now taste. Its dry as ****! A bit green so I need to let it age. But I'm excited. 8%
Still don't know why mine finished at 1.001

Ciderbarrel said:

Does anyone else find this too Malty? It tastes like someone dumped a bunch of Smirnoff Ice in my watered down Apple Juice. I have never been a fan of Malted drinks nor beer. I tried this because I wanted something different. It's not bad, just not my style of drink.

I have alot of DME left over because my LHBS only sells 2 or 3 lb bags depending on the brand. I am going to try this again, but with only 1 lb of DME to see how it turns out. I think I can churn something out based on Brandon O's recipe that will be to my liking.

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I may have spoke too soon. I'm starting week 3 in the keg. It's at 13psi @ 1C (33F, basically) and the maltyness is starting to mellow and the apple flavor is starting to become more noticeable.

I'll reserve final judgment for later because I spoke way too soon. This is my first non-cider so I didn't know what to expect.

Hey guys,

I made my first batch of Graff last Saturday. I followed the recipe/instructions exactly. Days 1-4 the airlock was going bezerk - gurgling every second or less.

The temps were getting pretty high 26-30 so I put the fermenter in a cooler with som ice blocks and the temps went down around 18-22. Then all of a sudden the fermentation looked like it stopped.

The fermenter hasn't bubble in two days and there isn't any signs of fermentation at all. It's now only the sixth day of fermentation. I took a gravity reading and it's 1020 - a lot higher than expected - the OG was 1055. The graff itself looks weird, it's very, very cloudy and an orange colour. It doesn't taste too bad but I'm a bit concerned about the appearence.

I take another reading tomorrow to see if the SG is decreasing.

What's with the colour - it looks like a mango fruit juice or something!

Cheers

wcarter1227 said:

i did this recipe last night also, used fresh unpasterized cider, followed everything in the original recipe but i added 1 oz of special b as i really like the taste of that malt in my brown ales. I used willamette hops also again since i really love brown ales, porters, stouts etc.

my question is that if i want to add whole cinnamon sticks, how do i sanitize them, or do i just toss them in? should i wait to do a secondary with them?

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Way to read my mind good sir.... i have the same question! Thoughts?

msheridan69 said:

The graff itself looks weird, it's very, very cloudy and an orange colour. It doesn't taste too bad but I'm a bit concerned about the appearence.

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I leff a glass of it to settle and the cloudiness is just yeast - and tonnes of it. I was left with a centimeter in the bottom of the glass.

I'm thinking this need another week in the fermenter to clear.

Ciderbarrel said:

I may have spoke too soon. I'm starting week 3 in the keg. It's at 13psi @ 1C (33F, basically) and the maltyness is starting to mellow and the apple flavor is starting to become more noticeable.

I'll reserve final judgment for later because I spoke way too soon. This is my first non-cider so I didn't know what to expect.

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I cracked open another bottle after 4 weeks conditioning, and yes, the Maltiness subsided and the apple notes increased as well. This time I opened a Swingtop (Grolsch-type) bottle and it was a lot better carbed. Either the extra week did it or I did a REALLY BAD capping job on the Crown Capped bottles. Will pop open a crowned bottle this weekend and hope for the best. I'd really like more carbonation than I have even now. I envy you keggers!!

brazedowl said:

Random thoughts on leaving this un-carbed and left to age a bit?

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I actually think a couple months in the secondary would do good things for this.

msheridan69 said:

I leff a glass of it to settle and the cloudiness is just yeast - and tonnes of it. I was left with a centimeter in the bottom of the glass.

I'm thinking this need another week in the fermenter to clear.

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Yep, give it another week or so. Since it's still up around 1.020 there's probably a lot of yeast still in suspension doing their thing. My Graff had that orange color before while it was still fermenting.

OK I'm a little worried here. My graff has been fermenting for about two and a half weeks. The SG is down to 1.008 but it tastes really sour. I used fresh pressed cider and added campden to kill the natural yeast and bacteria, I did that the day before I added the wort. Do you thing I have an infection or am I just paranoid?

wait, i was supposed to put stuff in my fresh cider to kill wild yeast?

i didnt. am i screwed?

BTW i made mine last night and i checked the airlock this morning. bubbling like crazy

titobandito said:

OK I'm a little worried here. My graff has been fermenting for about two and a half weeks. The SG is down to 1.008 but it tastes really sour. I used fresh pressed cider and added campden to kill the natural yeast and bacteria, I did that the day before I added the wort. Do you thing I have an infection or am I just paranoid?

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i would relax, its still too early to reserve judgement. Although there is a possibility for a wild yeast fermentation, its most likely not the case since you used campden tablets. Im thinking your proabably tasting the sulfur taste that ciders are notorious for giving off.

Needs more time to age, just like any other drink. leave it to age a few more weeks and see if the taste goes away.

Im thinking that even though this is a malted beverage, like ciders and apfelwein they need to age and will improve dramatically.

Drink something else you have bottled or worst case scenario go out and buy some jks scrumpy cider while you forget about this for at least another month.

Thanks for calming me down. I've never made any kind of cider before.

Shooter said:

Yep, give it another week or so. Since it's still up around 1.020 there's probably a lot of yeast still in suspension doing their thing. My Graff had that orange color before while it was still fermenting.

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Thanks again Shooter.

Sure enough, withing a few hours of posting I began to see signs of fermentation again - condensation inside the lid and a bubble in the airlock about every minute. I hoping another week should do it!

Thanks

I have everything except the torrified wheat. It would be very convenient to brew now. Do I really need it?

triangulum33 said:

I have everything except the torrified wheat. It would be very convenient to brew now. Do I really need it?

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No, you don't. We went over this earlier in the thread, unless you are adding base malt and mini mashing the torrified wheat is doing nothing...well, it is adding a starch haze but that is it. You can either skip it all together or add carapils for head retention purposes.

So next time I should do a mini mash for this brew....................

oparea said:

So next time I should do a mini mash for this brew....................

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If you want the torrified wheat to do anything other than contribute haze, yes. I left the torrified what out and used cara pils.

Yeah - the torrified wheat is really just for increased foam and head retention - I'm sure you'll get a decent enough head without it!

triangulum33 said:

I have everything except the torrified wheat. It would be very convenient to brew now. Do I really need it?

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Tonedef131 said:

No, you don't. We went over this earlier in the thread, unless you are adding base malt and mini mashing the torrified wheat is doing nothing...well, it is adding a starch haze but that is it. You can either skip it all together or add carapils for head retention purposes.

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titobandito said:

If you want the torrified wheat to do anything other than contribute haze, yes. I left the torrified what out and used cara pils.

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msheridan69 said:

Yeah - the torrified wheat is really just for increased foam and head retention - I'm sure you'll get a decent enough head without it!

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IMO, the crystal alone should give you enough head retention; I wouldn't bother with the carapils ---- BUT, I haven't tested this yet - my next batch I'm just gonna use 8 oz of crystal...

Alright, I just ordered all of the stuff for this recipe and I noticed I ordered crystal 60 instead of 120.

I ordered from Aust Homebrew and I'm sure they will change my order, but is it really necessary?

I know OP said to use 120 if you're using cheap juice. I'm using 4 gallons of TreeTop apple cider.

Is that considered cheap? Should I change my order to crystal 90 or 120?

So uhmm...I have a quick question.

I made this for a Halloween party tomorrow. The only thing different I did was added a small amount of pumpkin spices into the keg when I kegged.

Those flavors are perfect.

My question is this. Is this supposed to smell...odd?
And...is it supposed to taste like granny smith apples?

Don't get me wrong...I LOVE the flavor...I just wanna make sure it's correct. It seems as though the hops gave it a kinda sour taste. Not sour like rancid..but just a nice tang...like granny smith apples.

I tell you what. I can't taste a DROP of alcohol in this...but I know it's there. I just had half a pint...and while I couldn't taste it, as soon as I sat down...HIYO! I'm PERFECTLY buzzed. Like I just toked a bowl. LOL

Using 60 instead of 120 will effect the color and maybe a little bit of the flavor from being toasty to more caramel.

The granny smith apple and odd smell are probably from it being young, when did you brew it? I guess in this case the granny smith apple flavor is just fine since it is a cider.

Mitch, I brewed it on 10/1.

I haven't made this so I do not know how long it would need to age. The spices can make it so aging takes longer. I am still new to this so I don't have too much experience.

I'm of the opinion that anytime cider/apple juice is involved, you can't have a smooth malty tasting drink in two weeks. It's simply not possible.

As I said earlier, I brewed this on the 1st of October. It sat in the primary for two weeks, because I had the time. Then it went into my keg for two more weeks, and as of today, still tastes tart...like Granny Smith apples. While I like the tartness, I'm sure a majority of my guests will not.

Recipe is good, but no way it's a two week recipe. Those of you making this with this in your head, you're going to be really disappointed.

Lots of reasons why this could happen... what apples juice did you use, high temp fermenting, bacterial infection, etc.

Young (sour) cider can take about 40 days conditioning before it loses the sour taste and the apple flavour comes through. You can always back sweeten with concentrated apple juice.

I tasted my Graff right from the fermenter and it tastes really good (no sourness) - it's been in the fermenter 2 weeks - it's an orange haze which had me a bit worried so I added finings - hope I didn't screw it up - hoping to bottle tomorrow

msheridan69 said:

Lots of reasons why this could happen... what apples juice did you use, high temp fermenting, bacterial infection, etc.

Young (sour) cider can take about 40 days conditioning before it loses the sour taste and the apple flavour comes through. You can always back sweeten with concentrated apple juice.

I tasted my Graff right from the fermenter and it tastes really good (no sourness) - it's been in the fermenter 2 weeks - it's an orange haze which had me a bit worried so I added finings - hope I didn't screw it up - hoping to bottle tomorrow

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Do you think this will be drinkable after you keg it or do you think it's going to need more aging?

What juice/temp did you use/ferment at?

It's drinkable now compared to some of the cider I've brewed LOL

To be honest though, I'll give it the prescribed 2-3 weeks in the bottle to carbonate. I'm bottle conditioning not kegging. I'm hoping the finings leave some yeast behind too or I might end up with Graff Scrumpy LOL The instructions on the finings said add to fermenter and 'bottle' after 48 hours so I presume there will still be enough yeast in the wort to cab after 3 weeks.

I used shop bought 'Just Juice Apple & Pear' (check out my Youtube vids for ingredients I used - link in my signature) and the temps in my garage went between 18 and 30 , but mostly around mid 20s.
The reason I ask about juice is I got a skunky taste before when using organic juice and I also got an off sour taste when fermenting at high temps >28 for over a week. Light exposure could also be an attribute to creating the diecetal alcohol (sour).