Life of sanitizer

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Ok, I can see I'm going to have to follow through on the crazy idea I had in the shower last week. I'm going to get some Petri dishes and some agar and run some tests. It shouldn't be too hard to get results conclusive enough to use in homebrewing contexts, I don't think.

Plan would be something like:
- 2 month-old (maybe older) starsan (hard water, distilled water)
- 2 fresh starsan (hard, distilled)
- 2 no starsan (hard, distilled)
- 2 no application at all

Somehow, inoculate all of these (except for one of the no application) with kitchen / brewery bacteria/yeast, then apply the sanitizer and sit back and let 'em go. The other untouched sample is kept as a control.

I'm not sure of the best ways to do inoculation or application, suggestions welcome. I saw a thread describing someone's test of starsan vs iodophor (I think), that used paper circles soaked in the sanitizer, but they seemed to have some trouble with evaporation. It could be a spritz, but I'm worried that this wouldn't be a good test of surface sanitization since the agar medium isn't really a hard, sanitizable surface.
 
Ok, I can see I'm going to have to follow through on the crazy idea I had in the shower last week. I'm going to get some Petri dishes and some agar and run some tests. It shouldn't be too hard to get results conclusive enough to use in homebrewing contexts, I don't think.

Plan would be something like:
- 2 month-old (maybe older) starsan (hard water, distilled water)
- 2 fresh starsan (hard, distilled)
- 2 no starsan (hard, distilled)
- 2 no application at all

Somehow, inoculate all of these (except for one of the no application) with kitchen / brewery bacteria/yeast, then apply the sanitizer and sit back and let 'em go. The other untouched sample is kept as a control.

I'm not sure of the best ways to do inoculation or application, suggestions welcome. I saw a thread describing someone's test of starsan vs iodophor (I think), that used paper circles soaked in the sanitizer, but they seemed to have some trouble with evaporation. It could be a spritz, but I'm worried that this wouldn't be a good test of surface sanitization since the agar medium isn't really a hard, sanitizable surface.

Love this idea, I've also been kicking it around in my head for a while. For inoculating the samples, how about just rubbing them on the kitchen counter, or even better, a used dish washing sponge.

As for the agar, that stuff has the consistency of jello, right? I agree that a spray might not be the most effective on that type of surface. I wonder if you could just immerse the samples in starsan, or if they would dissolve.
 
Nice test, I saw a 6 week test on youtube with a number of different test batches but that test was just measuring PH and in all the samples the PH stayed close to 3 for the entire time.
I like the idea of actually testing effectiveness.
 
I bought an 8oz bottle of starsan early last year,like February. I only used about 1/2" out of the bottle,& it's still good. As long as you keep it sealed,it should last a really long time. I use the measure built into the bottle to measure up 3/4's of the way to the quarter ounce mark for 1 gallon of water. Works great & lasts a long time. I'm using 2 .5G vodka jugs (usually for blow offs) with a funnel & coffee filters to filter it out. Keeps the pet dander & grainy srtuff out,& it's a tiny hair less cloudy.
 
Yeah, I don't think arguments based on pH are fully convincing. At least, they rely on the assumption that some target pH value guarantees efficacy. I'm not a biologist, so I don't know one way or the other, but I think the direct test would eliminate any doubt. That is, assuming it doesn't give equivocal results.

I've been thinking a bit more about inoculation and sanitizer application. Perhaps the best way to do it would be to start with something glass, plastic, or metal---relatively non-porous and similar to the materials we actually use for brewing. Somehow apply bacteria to this, and then sanitize it with a spritzer and let it sit for the recommended contact time (30 or 60 seconds or whatever it is for Star-San). Finally, smear this on the surface of the agar and seal.

I think this would work better than trying to sanitize the inoculated agar, and it fairly well simulates the kind of contact infection we're trying to prevent through sanitization.

I'm thinking a plastic spoon would be a good infection device. I suppose just licking it would probably give a pretty good lacto infection!
 
Yeah, I don't think arguments based on pH are fully convincing. At least, they rely on the assumption that some target pH value guarantees efficacy. I'm not a biologist, so I don't know one way or the other, but I think the direct test would eliminate any doubt. That is, assuming it doesn't give equivocal results.

I've been thinking a bit more about inoculation and sanitizer application. Perhaps the best way to do it would be to start with something glass, plastic, or metal---relatively non-porous and similar to the materials we actually use for brewing. Somehow apply bacteria to this, and then sanitize it with a spritzer and let it sit for the recommended contact time (30 or 60 seconds or whatever it is for Star-San). Finally, smear this on the surface of the agar and seal.

I think this would work better than trying to sanitize the inoculated agar, and it fairly well simulates the kind of contact infection we're trying to prevent through sanitization.

I'm thinking a plastic spoon would be a good infection device. I suppose just licking it would probably give a pretty good lacto infection!

If you are going to lick it as a control I suggest you mix small batches of sanitizer at different intervals, also tap water vs distilled and do your licking all at the same time as your bacterial count in your mouth can vary from day to day.
 
Is it Starsan or iphodor? If its iphodor it's one time use if its Starsan it is good until the Ph level drops to a certain level, I don't remember it at the moment. I switched to Starsan and I keep it in a 5 gallon bucket and switch it every few months. There is a YouTube video that Immolatious did over a several month period showing how long it can keep. Check out this video on YouTube:<br/><br/>http://youtu.be/_niSffyAXO0.
Really appreciated the time and effort you put into this. You answered some important questions for me.
 
Thought I would offer my 2cents worth. I picked up a gallon of Iodine Wound Spray at the farm supply several years ago for $ 11.00 I think. Bought a 1oz ketchup pump and found several used 1 oz pill cups, free frosting buckets from Publics. On brew day I mix 1/4 oz iodine and 2 1/2 gal in the bucket. That lasts through the brew week, sanitizing all the hoses, carboys, and corni kegs, etc. Lets see 1 gal=128 oz x 4= 400 to 500 brew days. Come to think about that, at my age I might want to bequeath whats left to one of my Brew Buddys
 
zeg said:
Yeah, I don't think arguments based on pH are fully convincing.

I'd like to query your rational for that part of your comment if I may. The reason I ask is that lots of cheese making instructions and guides recommend sanitising work surfaces and utensils solely with vinegar. I've always worked on the basis of if its good enough for cheese making then a low ph (I.e acid) will be perfectly suitable to sanitise for beer too. I may be wrong and you might know something I don't so just curious why you are unconvinced by ph arguments?
 
In general, I don't find them convincing because they make an assumption that I don't know the basis for. It may be that pH < 3 is a guarantee that is sanitizes adequately, but I don't know why, or how much greater than 3 is still low enough to be effective.

It's an indirect argument. It doesn't mean it's wrong, just that it relies on something not being tested. Since the question is something along the lines of, "Does Star-San in condition X kill enough bacteria to prevent infection," the closer you can get to testing whether the Star-San is killing bacteria, the better.

There is a specific statement that I think makes it important to do this test rather than pH. Earlier, the chemist behind Star-San was quoted as saying that the solution must both be at low-pH *and* not be cloudy. That suggests that if it's low-pH but is cloudy, then it won't sanitize. Just testing the pH doesn't address this specific point.
 
Yeah I agree that actual testing would be great, I'm still skeptical that acidity alone isn't enough to sanitise based on cheese making experience as I mentioned. Ordinary white vinegar tends to be in the range of 2.5-3.5 ph and is adequate.

If I made a product that went cloudy over time and encouraged people to throw that product away when it went cloudy so that they would buy more of my product, then that would make good business sense to me. I'm not saying this is the case but I'm not ruling it out either. Especially when I know that under similar circumstances a substance with a ph in that range is satisfactory to sanitise a bacteria vulnerable process.

I wonder if there are any microbiology undergrads out there that need a project to get their teeth into?
 
Someone with access to an actual bio lab would be in a better position to do this than me. I've figured out how to obtain sterile petri dishes and agar, but I'm not totally sure I'll both sink the money for it and be able to pull off sufficiently clean conditions to avoid total contamination. (Though I guess it'd only be a problem for the control; if everything else grows colonies, that'd answer a lot of questions...)

And, like I said, I just don't know enough about the biology to know whether pH is sufficient to sanitize. It could be that it is, it could be that it isn't, or it could be that it's ok for cheese but not beer, since cheese relies on bacteria rather than yeast, so it is conceivable that it's different opportunistic invaders that one has to worry about. I really don't know.
 
All I know is,the under 3 PH factor makes my beer safely every time. I filtered my starsan this time right before using it to bottle my first pm pale ale. I'll report back how it turns out in my thread about it. That should help settle things.
 
We need passedpawn back on the forum :( he might be into conducting and experiment like this, and he definitely had both the equipment and brains.
 
The point of this entire disagreement is that you are perpetuating and ultimately promoting untested and off label use of a product to a very new subset of impressionable young brewers. The posters in the beginners board are the ones that will likely have the most difficulty with sanitation issues anyway.

I disagree that using cloudy Star San is "untested and off label". It has been field tested by many on this forum using pH strips and pH meters to determine that although cloudy, the pH is still within the recommended pH guidelines. In addition, the label on my Star San says nothing about cloudy Star San. I do agree with other comments that Star San is relatively inexpensive; when in doubt, it's best to make a fresh batch.

I don't think it's disingenuous for people to mention there experiences. I'd recommend that any new brewers run their own pH test if they choose to reuse their Star San. Or, simply use a new solution each time they require sanitizer.

I know when I first started using Star San that I watched several youtube videos of people conducting pH tests on cloudy Star San. For example, , I know there are others that better show the affects of longer term storage. Also, from HBT, https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/star-san-cloudiness-lab-report-103337/ (just one of several threads on this forum discussing pH tests of cloudy Star San).
 
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I made my choice based on the science and confirmed tests done by the factory. In my professional life policy, procedure, and accepted use as published by known reliable sources is the only option with no deviations being accepted. So forgive me if what I consider getting lucky a few times by painting even a little outside the lines is not acceptable.

For the record. The statements made by the chemists at the factory were designed as separate criteria. Somewhere in this thread that was lost. If you are following the efficacy testing procedure to the letter you would.

First, measure the PH a reading of <3.0 is within normal limits.

Second, subjectively measure the clarity of your solution. Clear being within normal limits.

If any of those tests produce results outside normal limits the solution would fail and should be discarded.


To ensure that I heard him correctly I listened to the podcasts again. Below are his statements with minimal paraphrasing.


Charley very clearly states several times that with deionized water the chemical will last for months with no issues. The minerals in the water react with the chemical and create a hard water soap. The hard water soap makes the product go cloudy and causes a film similar to that in your bathtub.

He further states that as long as the solution is within normal PH you will continue to sanitize but you will leave behind a film that is not present in clear solution.
 
Ok, one more comment.
Again, my water turns Star-San cloudy immediately, I see nothing on the bottle saying Star San is only effective IF your water is not hard and contains no minerals.
In fact I doubt that the FDA would approve of it as a sanitizer used in restaurants and bars if it had that caveat.
Let the chemist say what he wants, I have to rely on the information printed right on the bottle. If Star San is not effective in hard water because it turns cloudy then that really should be printed on the label and not just mentioned in some obscure podcast.
PS: for the record, I only store small amounts of mixed Star San and only for very short amount of time ( a few days) when I have several samples to take over those days. aside from that I mix fresh for the most part and discard after use, but again, because of my water it turns cloudy right after mixing.
 
I made my choice based on the science and confirmed tests done by the factory. In my professional life policy, procedure, and accepted use as published by known reliable sources is the only option with no deviations being accepted. So forgive me if what I consider getting lucky a few times by painting even a little outside the lines is not acceptable.

Good for you.

In my professional life, sometimes the confirmed tests done by the factory are too conservative and don't adequately match the conditions under which the product will be used or the requirements it needs to meet. The factory does not have a monopoly as a reliable source, and most manufacturers and engineers I have worked with do their own testing, even if the specs guarantee it meets a requirement.

It's also worth noting, as others have, that the manufacturer's directions on the package do not make any reference to cloudiness, using distilled water, etc. So it's simply not true that using hard tap water is, "Off label use."

Finally, if you want to belittle the collective experience of the homebrewers here, that's fine. But it isn't going to make their beer suddenly start spoiling.
 
Now that Hunting, Thanksgiving, Shopping, Christmas, New Years is done with and the fish have stopped biting, I was able to get a batch of beer made this weekend.

When I mixed up a batch of Star San using city water, like normal, it turned cloudy immediately.
When I mixed up a batch using DI water it was so clear you could see the oily swirls in the water as the acid diluted. A couple of days later it is still clear. Not a hint of cloudiness.
I have not checked for PH loss as I was just comparing city water to DI and solution clarity.

Most people do not have access to DI water, but you should be able to get similar results from distilled water. I'm not suggesting that you mix up all of your sanitizer with distilled water, but if want some for spray bottle use. A 99 cent jug of distilled water with a splash of star san in it will go a long way in a spray bottle.
 
I'm still curious about the use of Star San in hard water.
It's what I've been using. I make 3.8 gallons and use it for a month or so.
I haven't had a problem, but that doesn't mean I can't...
 
Trokair said:
That is the truth. Mine comes out cloudy from the word go but I haven't had a problem with it yet. Personally I toss mine at the end of every function that requires sanitation so I don't know how long it keeps for me. 1 oz. (5 gallon dose) is $0.52. I'd rather use fresh Star San and be sure then possibly ruin $30 or more in beer because I didn't want to spend $0.52

^^^^ this exactly^^^^
Spend too much on equipment/propane/ingredients to not mix fresh every time!!!!!
 
That's fine if it makes you feel better. But isn't technically necessary. As long as the PH is 3 or less,it's good.
 
So where can I find the truth about hard water nullifying it's abilities to sanitize?

I saw the video of the guy testing different samples with pH strips, but hear that's not a good source.
 
I think it's a great video. The truth stands for itself. He showed the test strips,which were the same. 3 or less is good PH-wise. That's from fivestar chemical,who makes starsan.
 
Where are people coming up with the idea that the hard water is nullifying it's ability?

I've seen how people can easily misread/comprehend what they've read and run off all over the web spreading their idea with black powder substitute powder...
 
Hey,pyrodex works pretty good. Still attracts moisture about as well though. ;) But the net can put forth a lot of falsehoods & half truths as well. I told it like it is.:mug: Now back to my regularly scheduled beer...
 
I like the results I'm getting with 3F Triple 7 from my Old Army. It's besting the 45 Colt loads with over 500 ft/lbs with a 240 grn custom conical. I love the thunder it creates! Certainly brings people by to ask what I have...
Doesn't smell as good as Pyrodex though.
 
With 100 grains of 3fg pyrodex & a saboted 200g hornady jacketed hollow point,my 50cal TC hawken equals a 30-06 in muzzle velocity. Sound is def different. Sounds more like a recoiless cannon or something. Anyway,it's starsan's PH level that does the job,not how clear it is.
 
"Anyway,it's starsan's PH level that does the job,not how clear it is."

That's what I thought when I first began using it, and for a long time afterwards. Recently (a month???) I saw the debate. It made me have to wonder as (IIRC) it was stated the company claimed that minerals depleted it's a ability to sanitize.
 
Make your life easy...
Step 1: Buy a cheap 5 gallon bucket and lid from ACE, Home Depot, Lowes, Menards, True Value, Crafty Beaver, etc... Costs about $5
Step 2: Buy 5 gallons of distilled water at Jewel, Dominick's, Kroger, Meijer, Walmart, etc... Costs about $2 a gallon
Step 3: Buy StarSan at LHBS
Step 4: Mix up a batch for every 5 gallon kegging/bottling day.
Step 5: Repeat and discard every time you keg/bottle.

It'll keep indefinitely in the lidded bucket, but just change it every time you bottle or keg and you'll always have a guaranteed good-to-go batch at the ready for any new brew sessions, racking, testing/sampling, or when you decide to cheat on sweet, sweet barley and make a mead or cider. I get about 5-6 uses between kegging sessions. I don't even mix up my batch in the bucket anymore. When I keg, I discard the old bucket, mix up 5 gallons in the keg, run it through my beer lines and refill the empty starsan bucket. Easy Peasy. Sure, it's colder than a new batch made with tap water after sitting around and settling at room temp, but it never goes bad and is always ready to go.
 
Step 4: Mix up a batch for every 5 gallon kegging/bottling day.
Step 5: Repeat and discard every time you bottle/keg.

That's massive overkill in my book! I have taken to making a fresh batch every brew (or every other brew if I'm in rapid-fire mode), but a single gallon is more than enough, including a few extra weeks worth of random spritzing fodder.

Re: the cloudiness claims, I am planning at some unspecified point in the distant future to do some tests of my own to see if I can resolve this and hopefully post some results that are convincing enough that we can put this to rest. (If anyone is interested in doing this and wants to talk, PM me!)

For now, though, it seems to be certain that using distilled water will result in effective sanitizer, so I've stopped my ridiculously hard using tap water for now. I just take a bottle of distilled water and add about 1/3 oz of Sani-Clean (eventually to switch to Star-San when this bottle runs out).
 
I think that debate may have been in this thread...

I've been on this particular thread since it began, but it seems to have taken a turn for the :off: and so I figured I'd help out those not wanting to sift through it all to get a good idea of the gist.
 
That's massive overkill in my book! I have taken to making a fresh batch every brew (or every other brew if I'm in rapid-fire mode), but a single gallon is more than enough, including a few extra weeks worth of random spritzing fodder.

Re: the cloudiness claims, I am planning at some unspecified point in the distant future to do some tests of my own to see if I can resolve this and hopefully post some results that are convincing enough that we can put this to rest. (If anyone is interested in doing this and wants to talk, PM me!)

For now, though, it seems to be certain that using distilled water will result in effective sanitizer, so I've stopped my ridiculously hard using tap water for now. I just take a bottle of distilled water and add about 1/3 oz of Sani-Clean (eventually to switch to Star-San when this bottle runs out).

Now that I think about it, I probably go about 2-3 brew sessions between changes as of late. Maybe I shouldn't drink so much when kegging. :mug:
 
I mix a 5 gallon batch and discard every 6 months or so. I use tap water and it will be slightly cloudy right away...but after a few uses it gets more cloudy.

Guess we could get some ph strips and test...
 
So this should make a great deal of sense. Your DI or RO water is going to run a pH of around 6-6.5. It will be less cloudy and last long because ions and minerals have been stripped from the water. The things interacting with the starsan to cause it to be cloudy in the tap water,that and DOCs and TSSs. Unfiltered tap water will have all those things in it and give it some buffering capacity. This will vary greatly depending on where you are and the water thats coming from your tap.

So to say "mine lasts me this lone using tap water" may be true but doesn't mean my source water will last as long. If there is a greater buffering capacity in my source water it may only take a couple brew days for the pH to rise since it is picking up some things while being used.

I do have access to a huge water system but it's just easier spending the .52 and using tap. I used DI from the store for my spray bottle and keep the extra in the jug in my keezer. I have had one gallon jug last 8 month with no issues. I checked the pH on the last bit and it was fine.

As long as what you are doing works for you who cares.
 
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