Next Step in Evolution? Kegs? 10 Gal? All Grain?

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wintermute2

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I feel like I'm starting to get the hang of 5-gallon, partial match brewing, and my wife has actually suggested that I step it up a notch. Right now I boil my wort on my stove in a kettle that I can barely boil 3 gallons in (due to boil-over). And my stove is challenged getting this volume up to a boil. So to do larger boils, even for a 5 gallon batch, I would need a fryer and a kettle. Kegging would require the kegging equipment and another fridge.

What's my next logical step to better beer and more of it? Equipment to handle a 5 gallon all-grain batch? Kegging equipment to facilitate more frequent brewing? I'm thinking a burner and new kettle is the right way to go.
 
If you want to do 5 gallon batches, then yes, upgrade your kettle and get a burner. Make sure your kettle is at least 8 - 10+ gallons, so that you can handle boiling 6 - 7 gallons at the start easily. And if you want to go all grain, then convert a xtreme or igloo cooler for a mash tun.
 
I would focus on all grain before kegging. Build a mash tun, wort chiller and buy the burner and kettle like you mentioned.
 
i did extract 5gal and then bought kegging gear. best move i made. i was able to brew lots (almost weekly), keg the beer, and drink it 2 weeks or so later.

but since i've been doing all grain, my quality of beer is better. you could always do BIAB for AG beer with all the extract gear.
 
I would focus on all grain before kegging. Build a mash tun, wort chiller and buy the burner and kettle like you mentioned.

Good advice here. Kegging is an expensive dive, unless you've already got an extra fridge and some taps sitting around. Not that a good kettle and burner are cheap, but at this point, I think you'd get a lot more bang for your buck in improving your beer with the kettle/burner purchase. You can always get into kegging by slowly purchasing the parts over time.
 
Definitely get that burner, and start cooking outdoors. Your going to have a better and stronger boil, then the kitchen stove. Make sure you can cool your bigger batches down quickly, with something like an immersion chiller. Maybe even get a small, inexpensive, pump to recirculate ice water through the immersion chiller.
You don't mention any financial restraint, but I will tell you this stuff adds up.

I too want to take the next step, unfortunately for me it's not that easy financially. It's starting a chain reaction because I want a bigger kettle(keg), but would need a bigger fermenter(spiedel 60L), a bigger wort chiller, a bigger yeast starter(5l flask). Im sure there are other items I'm forgetting too. Keep an eye out for deals on this stuff, I like to check out homebrewfinds.com. Im slowly piecing together 10 gallon all grain equipment. But, it's difficult when all the items are $50-$100 dollars.

Kegging is great too, but also expensive. I've bought kits from kegconnection.com, and just waited until they had a sale, which is often.
 
I would go wort chiller first, then keggle and propane burner (maybe skip to the blingman/hurricane style unless you can find a good deal). Then start cruising Craigslist for fermentation and beer fridges or mini fridges or chest freezers, kegs to turn into keggles and find a deal or two.

I went 5 gallon extract full boil with stainless immersion wort chiller, then fermentation chamber, then kegging equipment, then to all grain 10 gallon batches Dennybrew style.

Truth be told I only did two extract batches before going all grain.
 
Oh man.. whichever route you go, be careful you don't end up doing what I did this year..

I started PM on the stove (2004 couple hundred bucks in equipment), then went AG on the stove (2008 couple hundred bucks in equipment), then bought four kegs, a regulator, lines etc. to handle three kegs on pressure and serving (2011 again, a couple hundred bucks) but never kegged anything due to my transient nature (moved from VT->NYC->CT in a short period).

Well this year I decided I wanted to actually keg (since I have a secondary fridge), and be able to handle commercial kegs; so I bought a bunch of crap, and my wife freaked out about me taking over the second fridge, so now I'm buying a chest freezer, while I'm doing that I'm increasing my on tap offering ability to 6, even though I only have four kegs right now (since I'll have the room in the keezer anyways right?) and picking up a larger CO2 tank.

in 2014 I'm going to begin my 10 gallon E-HERMS build in the basement (Arguably RIMS in this stage), which let me tell you, isn't going to be cheap - one 80qt pot, 70 qt cooler, one pump, counterflow chiller, PID controller, not to mention the added breaker and wiring & element. On top of that pick up more kegs.

either in late 2014 or early 2015 I'll finish the E-HERMS build by adding in another 80qt pot and another pump, another element, probably pick up more kegs, not to have more on tap but to have more in backlog.

This year alone I've spent $750 so far between equipment and ingredients and I'm a cheap SOB; I'm still not done yet.

I think my words of advice are; think out where you want to be then buy stuff.

Are you going to jump from 5 gal outside batches to 10 gal outdoor batches in the future? are you going to want to go from outside brewing to inside brewing? <-- that is the exact reason I'm sticking with my AG stovetop setup and building my 10 gal E-HERMS setup in the basement.

The arguments against kegging aren't as strong - you will essentially use that equipment until you stop brewing, where as stock pots are only good as long as you are brewing that size batch.

I can currently do 6 gal AG on the stove or 12 gal PM on the stove, although I'm thinking of picking up an 1800 watt induction cooktop to make AG on the stove easier, and possibly jump me to 12gal AG on the stove; see there I go again...

Just some food for thought; hope that helps a bit...
 
Alot of wisdom here.

I guess I should fill in a few of the blanks.

I already built and use an immersion chiller - capable of cooling around 2.75 gallons of boiling wort in 10 minutes or less.

I'm already using a 5 gallon cooler as a mash lauter tun.

My wife can't stand the smell of boiling hops.

So it sounds like, with this added information, that going the burner/kettle route is my best bet.

Regarding budget - as little money as possible.

So for a kettle - sounds like a 10 gallon is the way to go? I can then do up to 6 gallons AG, and maybe up to 12 gallons PM.
 
Alot of wisdom here.

I guess I should fill in a few of the blanks.

I already built and use an immersion chiller - capable of cooling around 2.75 gallons of boiling wort in 10 minutes or less.

I'm already using a 5 gallon cooler as a mash lauter tun.

My wife can't stand the smell of boiling hops.

So it sounds like, with this added information, that going the burner/kettle route is my best bet.

Regarding budget - as little money as possible.

So for a kettle - sounds like a 10 gallon is the way to go? I can then do up to 6 gallons AG, and maybe up to 12 gallons PM.

Before you buy any equipment ask yourself a very important question. Do I ever want to do 10 gallon batches? If Yes then save yourself money and buy all your future equipment with that in mind, so a 15 gallon kettle. If No then enjoy the 10 gallon kettle... until you change your mind and want to brew 10 with a friend. We've all done it :)

Also if you think you will ever upgrade to using a pump then get 1/2 fittings not 3/8.

Learn from my costly mistakes. :D
 
All Grain then 10 Gallons THEN Kegging IMO....

Master the AG first then increase yield to make it worth your while then make it easy with kegging. Just my $.02

Cheers,

-JM
 
I would agree to go with a 15 gallon pot,you can still do 5 gallon batches and have the ability to do 10 gallon if you want.
 
ManhattanProjectBrewing said:
All Grain then 10 Gallons THEN Kegging IMO....

Master the AG first then increase yield to make it worth your while then make it easy with kegging. Just my $.02

Cheers,

-JM

Yeah, I am making the mistake currently of trying to do all three...whew...it's taking forever to amass equipment. It also is taking up its fair share of dough. Do it in stages or get a buddy that's into brewing to get something you both could use and then when its your turn buy/DIY something you both could use.
 
Full wort boil is the first upgrade I would make.

Then focus all your attention on fermentation. Yeast starters, stirplate, temp control, etc... Any idiot can make wort. Great beer is made in the fermentation.
 
Thanks. Sounds like the 15-gallon kettle is the way to go. Of course, if I ever get to it, I'll have to start thinking about how to MOVE all this stuff - I don't have a dedicated brewing location that I could build a cascade system in.
 
A turkey fryer is a great cheap way to get to 5 gallon batches either all grain or full boil extract/partial mash. It's what I started with and am still using after 4 years. When I go to 10 gallon batches I guess I'll be out 0$ since I got it from my father-in-law for nothing. Even if I had paid for it I'd be out what, $50? You just have to be ok with using aluminum and Fermcap.
 
I started out small and ended up wasting a lot of money on duplicate equipment. I would get a good burner and a fifteen gallon stainless kettle. You can do easy five gallon full boils and if you are good 10 gallon. I have had my share of boil overs. If you plan to move up you can use your 15 gallon as your hlt and get a 20 gal mt and bk. If not you aren't out much because the difference in price is negligible. I had good luck with blichmann burners. And a bayou classic bk.
 
Many turkey fryer burners come with 8-9 gallon pots. They are pretty affordable to start doing 5 gallon batches outdoors. So that could get you started on 5 gallon all-grain immediately.

If your wort chiller is sufficient for chilling 5.5-6 gallons then great! Otherwise get a better chiller too.

After that, I would focus on yeast health and fermentation temps. I jumped to kegging first and am now trying to master yeast and fermentation and I wish I had done it the other way around. It's easy enough to start doing yeast starters and get a cheap mini-fridge you can ferment in at proper temps with a temp controller.

Make sure you scour Craigslist and eBay and garage sales for stuff you can use too. I got my first chest freezer on CL for $40.
 
Alright - I've been studying up on 15-gallon kettles. Right now it looks like a pre-drilled Midwest heavy duty, a welded heavy duty MoreBeer, or a Bayou Classic are my best bets cost vs. performance-wise.

I willl probably have Midwest pre drill my kettle, getting the bung hole (heheh, he said bung hole) as low as possible, causing less waste in my most likely 5-gallon batches.

The MoreBeer is welded, totally diesel. Some reviews say that the bottom hole is too high off the bottom of the kettle to efficiently brew 5-gallon batches. Also, do you have to worry about the welds rusting?

Bayou Classic - seems like some people love 'em, some hate them - seems like most complaints revolve around threading issues (looking for one that has pre-installed fittings).

What's everyone's opinions on these?
 
Purchasing coastal property in antarctica so that subterranian self cooled fermenters and off coast Lagering fermenters can be used year round.

Mine is 4.5 billion gallons and extends well beyond my property lines (under ground).
 
You're obviously bitten by the brew bug and you want to make more + better beer. I can relate.

First things first. If you're not already set up to properly and consistently control fermentation temps, get a solid handle on that before even thinking about AG, kegging, 10-gallon batches and the like. If you have room for one, pick up a used fridge or freezer on Craigslist, build a controller box with an STC-1000 and you'll be very well set to ferment a wide variety of brews. I'd much rather drink an extract brew using dry yeast fermented at the right temps than an AG beer that was allowed to ferment too warmly.

The next thing is to move to full boils (bigger kettle w/ ball valve) which necessitates using an immersion chiller. If you live (like I do) where the hose water in the summer will only get the wort down to 86-87*F, you may have to get set up to recirculate (with a pump) ice water through the chiller to get down to proper pitch temp (low 60's for ales, mid 40's for lagers). I had to use 20# of ice today, but it got my ESB wort down to 60*F.

Good luck.
 
You're obviously bitten by the brew bug and you want to make more + better beer. I can relate.

First things first. If you're not already set up to properly and consistently control fermentation temps, get a solid handle on that before even thinking about AG, kegging, 10-gallon batches and the like. If you have room for one, pick up a used fridge or freezer on Craigslist, build a controller box with an STC-1000 and you'll be very well set to ferment a wide variety of brews. I'd much rather drink an extract brew using dry yeast fermented at the right temps than an AG beer that was allowed to ferment too warmly.

The next thing is to move to full boils (bigger kettle w/ ball valve) which necessitates using an immersion chiller. If you live (like I do) where the hose water in the summer will only get the wort down to 86-87*F, you may have to get set up to recirculate (with a pump) ice water through the chiller to get down to proper pitch temp (low 60's for ales, mid 40's for lagers). I had to use 20# of ice today, but it got my ESB wort down to 60*F.

Good luck.

Thanks, but the fermenter fridge ain't going to happen soon. Luckily my basement keeps a really steady temperature over the span of weeks and I brew to the basement temperature (i.e., I've had success in the winter brewing an Oktoberfest in a corner that kept at 52 degrees for two months using a very forgiving lager yeast, and right now I'm brewing a saison at 76 degrees).
 
76 may be too low for a saison!

I went 10g kettle and BIAB for 5 gallon batches, then almost immediately bought kegging equipment when my first all grain batch didn't fully carbonate in the bottle. I took it out of the bottle and put it into the keg and never bottled again.

I spent big money on the kettle, going with the Blichmann, I still do it inside on the stove, which is slow to bring up but can hold a good boil. The keg was on the cheap side, even with all the equipment associated.

I only recently bought a keg fridge, but I also could "control" the temps in my house with carboy placement. I could only do lager in the winter, but can do ales year-round, except the height of summer, like the 2 weeks in early-mid July here in the NYC area. I did my saison in my 90 degree kitchen!

Is the home-brew shop in Islip still around?
 
76 may be too low for a saison!

I went 10g kettle and BIAB for 5 gallon batches, then almost immediately bought kegging equipment when my first all grain batch didn't fully carbonate in the bottle. I took it out of the bottle and put it into the keg and never bottled again.

I spent big money on the kettle, going with the Blichmann, I still do it inside on the stove, which is slow to bring up but can hold a good boil. The keg was on the cheap side, even with all the equipment associated.

I only recently bought a keg fridge, but I also could "control" the temps in my house with carboy placement. I could only do lager in the winter, but can do ales year-round, except the height of summer, like the 2 weeks in early-mid July here in the NYC area. I did my saison in my 90 degree kitchen!

Is the home-brew shop in Islip still around?


76 should be fine - it's the basement temp, not the wort-fermenting-in-the-basement temp, and I'm using Lallemand's Belle Saison yeast, which should be fine at that temperature. I believe the place in Islip is still around, but I typically go to Brews Bros. in Farmingdale, or if I have time, Karp's in East Northport.

Anyone else have brew kettle recommendations (I'd love a Blickman, but they're too much).
 
There are ways to control fermentation temps without having to build a fridge/chamber. I use a simple swamp cooler in the summer (live in New England so cooling isn't as major a concern as other areas). I put my bucket in a marine grade cube cooler, add a few inches of water, and then cycle frozen 1L and .5L soda/water bottles. Is a fermentation chamber going to be more dialed in? Yes. Does the swamp cooler method produce great beer? Also yes.

As for brew kettles, check out spikebrewing.com for his welded kettles. You can also just buy a large stock pot and DIY. Check out brewhardware.com

All this being said, I was satisfied with the quality of my beers when doing extract partial boils, so I dove straight into kegging with a simple 2 keg minifridge system. My frigidaire fit 2 ball lock kegs with the C02 inside the fridge, and I put my faucets through the door rather than buying a tower to keep costs low. I'm really glad I did this and wouldn't have changed the order my brewing progressed in.
 
My oppinion would be that you should get a burner and kettle, and if you can afford it, a large enough one to start doing 10 gallon batches. My 5 gallon batches have been going way too quickly lately.
 
Another vote for burner and big kettle here to get AG going. Admittedly my last upgrade was a burner with an 8 gallon kettle, but I specifically decided to go with brewing 5 gallon batches more often. I also decided to live with a 5 gallon Home Depot cooler mash tun - I'm prepared to go for thicker mashes or smaller batches if I decide to do the odd big beer (I prefer my beers around 4-6%).

Fermentation temperature control in your basement setup can be very simple, and as we're heading towards fall now, you could live with a few hot weeks with a swamp cooler until then. Heating in winter is probably easier to improvise than cooling as well.
 
I bought a 10 gallon aluminum kettle with steamer off amazon for cheap. Stainless is nice, but I am cheap. The best part, I don't need a swamp cooler. My bottling bucket fits nicely in the kettle with enough room for some ice water in the warmer months.

With a 5 gallon tun, you are hard pressed to make a brew above 7% without adding extracts.
 
Simple basic E-kettle for basement year round brewing in comfort would be my suggestion. Some decent ventilation and it doesn't stink the house of hops.

Kegs are a close second!
 
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