Need help with Belgian yeast fermentation...

After working my way through brewing styles from the BJCP guidelines, I am into Belgians.

I have brewed a Leffe clone (Beer Captured recipe) and a Belgian pale (Brewing Classic Styles, Jamil's recipe), I am lacking the banana/clove, estery character. It's there, yes, but much too subtle.

Both recipes were fermented at 68F room temp.

Any ideas? Warmer temps?

Thanks!

What yeast are you using? That's the key to the banana esters. I actually prefer just a hint of banana instead of banana bombs like some breweries tend to do. I usually chill my belgians to about 5 degrees below what I want to ferment at. I ferment at 64 degrees for a great belgian. Try Wyeast Belgian Abbey 1214 if you want a lot. I prefer Wyeast Belgian Ardennes 3522, but actually use a combination of the two with my Belgian Dubbel.

Warmer temps will give you more esters..

I tried White Labs WLP530 for the pale, and Wyeast Belgian Abbey II (1762) for the Leffe clone.

My flavors are way less character than the intended commercial versions. I would call them bland. Looking at the yeast spec's, I should be in the mid-to-upper temp range for each yeast, so I should get the esters, yes?

I haven't done Belgians. I've read that over pitching can cause a too clean fermentation for some styles.

i've used the wyeast belgian abbey I & II and their belgian strong ale yeast recently. i would recommend higher tempretures and possibly blending two belgain yeast strains. also, incremental additions of sugar during fermentation while increasing the tempreture of fermentation will help attenuate--another key to good belgian ales.

the belgian abbey I yeast is the chimay yeast and is very tasty. the abbey II yeast is less estery and has alcohol heat. the belgian strong ale yeast should be fermented at least upper 70s or even upper 80s to 90s. i had good luck blending abbey I and II.

WLP 530 works great in darker beers

WLP550 works great in lighter beers

with the WLP550 I now pitch at 70-72 and let rise to 75f

Wow...I realize that you want esters in a belgian, but some of you are fermenting very high. The point is to get a little bit of ester, not an overload with bananas. I still think mid 60's with the right yeast is exactly where you want to be.

Suthrncomfrt1884 said:

Wow...I realize that you want esters in a belgian, but some of you are fermenting very high.

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Have you read "Brew like a monk"? How about "Farmhouse Ales"?

chimay red- pitch at 68f & rise to 81f
westvleteren- pitch at 68f & rise to 84f
duvel- pitch at 61-64f & rise to 84f
leffe blond- pitch at 64f & rise to 77f
saxxo - pitch at 77f allowed to rise or droped based on the season

Achouffe pitch at 78.8 ºF and hold.

finally Dupont yeast numbers->
WLP565 80-95f

Houblon's got it. Fermentation's gotta kiss 80 to get the big esters characteristic of many Belgians. That's why I don't even bother with them until spring.

Yup get those temps up if you want those good esters. The key is not to let them fluctuate up and down.

Thanks, guys!

You gave me an excuse to by Brew Like a Monk.

I'll try a steady increase in temps next time.

Houblon said:

Have you read "Brew like a monk"? How about "Farmhouse Ales"?

chimay red- pitch at 68f & rise to 81f
westvleteren- pitch at 68f & rise to 84f
duvel- pitch at 61-64f & rise to 84f
leffe blond- pitch at 64f & rise to 77f
saxxo - pitch at 77f allowed to rise or droped based on the season

Achouffe pitch at 78.8 ºF and hold.

finally Dupont yeast numbers->
WLP565 80-95f

Click to expand...

Pretty much this. Belgians didn't follow any of the normal guidelines. Thank goodness for the rebels, they produced some fantastic beers!

Houblon said:

Have you read "Brew like a monk"? How about "Farmhouse Ales"?

chimay red- pitch at 68f & rise to 81f
westvleteren- pitch at 68f & rise to 84f
duvel- pitch at 61-64f & rise to 84f
leffe blond- pitch at 64f & rise to 77f
saxxo - pitch at 77f allowed to rise or droped based on the season

Achouffe pitch at 78.8 ºF and hold.

finally Dupont yeast numbers->
WLP565 80-95f

Click to expand...

What was the timeline on this? I understand wanting esters, but 80 degrees! That's super hot. As I said, I pitch at about 60 degrees, ferment for 1 week at 64 degrees, and then as your book says, I let it slowly raise. But I only let it get to about 71-72 for a day tops.

My batch with Ardennes started at the low 80s, and actually got stuck under 75F. Brought it back to 80F and it chugged along again.

My closet smelled like bananas during the fermentation, but the end result was very balanced, actually a bit on the clean/malty side (I had aromatic and biscuit malts in the recipe)

qvantamon said:

My batch with Ardennes started at the low 80s, and actually got stuck under 75F. Brought it back to 80F and it chugged along again.

My closet smelled like bananas during the fermentation, but the end result was very balanced, actually a bit on the clean/malty side (I had aromatic and biscuit malts in the recipe)

Click to expand...

You got stuck because you started too high. If you start off cold and work your way upwards, yeast can handle it, and actually produce a cleaner beer in my opinion.

If you start high and drop the temps, it confuses the yeast into thinking its time to hibernate and they drop out of suspension.

After reading through this thread, I was starting to think that maybe I had been doing belgians wrong all along, and maybe they're supposed to taste like banana water. I went back and dusted off the old "designing great beers" book to double check. Now, I'm sure other books may tell you to ferment in the 80's, but this one tells me to start around 65 and slowly let it rise over the course of fermentation until you hit around 72.

High temps create off-flavors, they don't accentuate the yeast. If you want more esters, use a different strain that produces esters at lower temps so you don't risk adding even more unwanted flavors.

Just my 2 cents..

Suthrncomfrt1884 said:

You got stuck because you started too high. If you start off cold and work your way upwards, yeast can handle it, and actually produce a cleaner beer in my opinion.

Click to expand...

No, it stuck because of screwing with temps. Belgian yeasts don't like that. Pitch in the mid to upper 60s and let them do whatever they want.

Suthrncomfrt1884 said:

High temps create off-flavors, they don't accentuate the yeast. If you want more esters, use a different strain that produces esters at lower temps so you don't risk adding even more unwanted flavors.
Just my 2 cents..

Click to expand...

That's only true in the very early hours of fermentation. That's why the Belgians start cool and then allow it to ramp up as desired.

Gotta agree with JKarp. Also if you ferment at 72, your beer is probably closer to 80 degrees anyhow because of the vigorous fermentation process. Although you don't exactly want 80 ambient temp so in that sense, you are correct

Pitch cold and allow to rise but in a controlled manner.

I don't get bananas in my Belgian beers - aka monkey beers unless I pitched too warm. or used a yeast that throws off those smells WLP400.

Ever drink a Dupont Saison, do you get bananas?

R2ENG -
As an FYI, if you're looking specifically to produce a brew with 'banana bombs', 3 weeks in a primary in the low 60's with a bavarian heffeweizen recipe and specifically Wyeast 3068 (Weihenstephan Weizen) will do the trick.

Although the recipe stated lower temps would bring more clove taste, everybody who tries this beer says holy bananas. It's definitely an excellent wheat brew.

OK... this requires some clarification: NO. I am not after a banana/bubblegum/clove bomb. I am brewing Belgians, not hefe's. Maybe the banana/clove that I stated was wrong.

The flavors which are typical of Belgian styles are not present - no richness, no fruit overtones, just a faint Belgian yeast taste.

I have since read half of the "Brew Like a Monk", and it seems starting low and slowly letting the fermentation increase will do the trick. For example, as someone stated above, Leffe is slowly raised to 77F. That's almost 10F warmer than I fermented mine.

Thanks for everyone's help. I think I am on the right track now, and only brewing another batch will tell.