What should I pitch?

So I did a Dunkelweizen today. I got a tube of WLP380 from my LHBS yesterday that had a best date of 11/24. It's been on the stirplate for 24 hours with no sign of life so far. It's a 1L starter so should I just pitch the whole thing into the batch and see what happens? I usually decant and pitch my starters but since there is no slurry and everything appears to be suspended I would probably have to pitch the whole thing to make sure I got all the yeast I'm thinking. Or I have a pack of Danstar Munich lying around so should I just rehydrate and pitch that? Or I suppose I could pitch the WLP380 and if it doesn't take off in a reasonable amount of time pitch the Danstar. What do you guys think.

Well I have no doubt the yeast is viable, Bobby M proved the viability of year old yeast. And the point of making a starter is to grow more yeast from the viable cells. I never see much activity in starters, just a creamy band of yeast in the bottom.

Since te yeast hasn't dropped out of suspension I would just pitch the whole thing, slurry and all into it, and have faith that the yeast know what their doing.

And take a reading in 72 hours to see what's going on, if nothing, then you have the dry as a back up.

That's just it there is no creamy band of yeast on the bottom at all like I'm used to seeing so I was a bit nervous since they haven't appeared to multiply at all. But like you say I should probably give it shot since I have it anyway.
So you can go 72 hours without any fermentation with no ill effects to the wort.

RandalG said:

That's just it there is no creamy band of yeast on the bottom at all like I'm used to seeing so I was a bit nervous since they haven't appeared to multiply at all. But like you say I should probably give it shot since I have it anyway.
So you can go 72 hours without any fermentation with no ill effects to the wort.

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Many starters take a couple days to begin anyway.....

as to the 72 hours...Does the title of this STICKY answer your question?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/fermentation-can-take-24-72-hrs-show-visible-signs-43635/

Thanks. Yeah I for got about that sticky. Although less than ideal maybe I'll wait til the morning and give the yeast a chance to multiply first and if still no sign I'll pitch then. At least that way I have a shot at pitching when they are most active which from what I've read is a good way to do it. But then again I will have lost all that time if it doesn't happen.

That's the thing I don't like about liquid yeast. Having to plan ahead, but I see no point in doing a starter if it does not get started. You also have no idea if the yeast is viable, some packs are DOA due to poor handling. In the future you should plan to get the starter going a few days earlier.

If it was me I would rather pitch a packet of dry yeast and continue the starter and then store it away for a future batch.

samc said:

You also have no idea if the yeast is viable, some packs are DOA due to poor handling. I

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That's really really really rare...most of the people who think that, just aren't patient or are looking for the wrong kinda signs....I don't believe it bad yeast, I believe in impatient brewers.

Bobby M recently did a test on year old stored yeast here; https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/testing-limits-yeast-viability-126707/

And my LHBS cells outdated tubes and packs of yeast dirt cheap 2-3 dollars each and I usually grab a couple tubes of belgian or other interesting yeast when I am there and shove it in my fridge. and I have never had a problem with one of those tubes. I usually make a starter but I once pitched a year old tube of Belgian High Gravity yeast directly into a 2.5 gallon batch of a Belgian Dark Strong, and after about 4 days it took off beautifully.

The purpose of a starter is to reproduce any viable cells in a batch of yeast....that;s how we can grow a starter form the dregs in a bottle of beer incrementally...and that beer may be months old.

Even if you have a few still living cells, you can grow them....That's how we can harvest a huge starter (incrementally) from the dregs in a bottle of some commercial beers. You take those few living cells and grow them into more.

If yeast can be grown from a tiny amount that has been encased in amber for 45 million years, 45 million year old yeast ferments amber ale we really don't need to sweat too much about yeast viability....

If you care read my take on the Myth of Bad Yeast.

I've heard all the stories and read all the posts and for the most part agree.

I culture Sourdough yeast cultures and am pretty well versed on yeast. But I also am observant of shipping, storage and food handling procedures and know pretty well that some packs of yeast get the s*** kicked out of them and are DOA. I am not telling OP to throw it out, just continue the process and meanwhile play it safe with the batch of beer. Part of the results of making a starter is "proof of life". I spent some time talking with Dr. Ed Wood of Sourdough International on growing Sourdough yeast and he walked me through several iterations of washing his yeast products and sometimes when the yeast is in a weakened state other stuff starts to grow and take hold - it can be nasty.

I would agree that probably 99% of the time it will be fine, I like to bet on sure things 100% of the time.

I've never had a starter not take off rather quickly. Even before I got my stirstarter just swirling it by hand they took off within the first day. I read on Mr.Malty that they are typically most active between 12-18 hours so I thought I was golden with the stirplate. In hindsight I should have probably given myself more time just in case as you never know. At least I know now it doesn't hurt to have a backup plan.

RandalG said:

I've never had a starter not take off rather quickly. Even before I got my stirstarter just swirling it by hand they took off within the first day. I read on Mr.Malty that they are typically most active between 12-18 hours so I thought I was golden with the stirplate. In hindsight I should have probably given myself more time just in case as you never know.

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You're on a stirplate?I should have said this earlier, or asked, but honestly I never get sedimentation or even krausens (rare) unless I turn off the plate. I usually run it for 12-24 hours, then shut it off and let everything do it's thing. Mostly it just flocculates once it's not being beaten around on a yeast merry go round.

I mean how can it flocculate if it is being whipped into constant suspension? I think we rely on them/overuse them too much anyway. Plenty of starters get/ got made without stirplates.

Betcha if you should it down and come back in a few hours, you'll wonder why you sweated this out.

It's only my second starter on the stirplate and the first one got krausen and sediment while it was still going so I guess I'll have to chalk it up to experience or lack of I should say. With that said I did crank it up a bit this time so that very well could be the reason.

RandalG said:

It's only my second starter on the stirplate and the first one got krausen and sediment while it was still going so I guess I'll have to chalk it up to experience or lack of I should say.

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Oh That's the situation is it? Well I'll give my pat answer then.....


(Ready?)

One thing to realize is that you can't compare one brew to another. No two fermentations are exactly the same.

When we are dealing with living creatures, there is a wild card factor in play..Just like with other animals, including humans...No two behave the same.

You can split a batch in half put them in 2 identical carboys, and pitch equal amounts of yeast from the same starter...and have them act completely differently...for some reason on a subatomic level...think about it...yeasties are small...1 degree difference in temp to us, could be a 50 degree difference to them...one fermenter can be a couple degrees warmer because it's closer to a vent all the way across the room and the yeasties take off...

Someone, Grinder I think posted a pic once of 2 carboys touching each other, and one one of the carboys the krausen had formed only on the side that touched the other carboy...probably reacting to the heat of the first fermentation....but it was like symbiotic or something...

With living micro-organisms there is always a wildcard factor in play...and yet the yeast rarely lets us down. So it is best just to rdwhahb and trust that they know to what they are doing.

So just because you "have never had this happen before" doesn't mean that the yeast are doing anything wrong. It just means that you haven't experienced on of the infinite NORMAL behaviors that living organisms, living wildcards, are capable of.

Don't assume the worst with the yeast, realize that they've been making beer since long before our great great great grandfather copped his first buzz from a 40 of mickey's out back of the highschool, so they are the experts.

Yeasts are like teenagers, swmbos, and humans in general, they have their own individual way of doing things.

Of over the last dozen starters with tubes, smack packs or bottle harvesting, I have ever only seen one Krauzen or "activity ring." Either with or without my stirplate., but I've never had a starter not "start."

So shut your off, wrap a towl around the flask to warm it up a bit and I betcha everything will be fine in the morning.

Stay tuned

Edit:
In the morning I had a layer of slurry on the bottom of the flask.My guess is since this is a hefe strain with low flocculation that could be one reason it stayed suspended.I pitched about 8:00. By 6:00 (22 hours) this morning I had a thin layer of krausen and a few bubbles.Now at 10:00 (38 hours) I have a little more krausen and a few more bubbles but it hasn't really taken off yet. I just read the WLP380 website and a few people mention this strain is a slow starter. I probably should have done that in the first place along with taking the advice of your avatar Revvy. Thanks for the help.