Got a problem with my Efficiencies help please!

Ok y'all. Saturday I brewed a Barleywine Bigfoot Clone. Problem is that I missed my target Gravity by almost 30 points...
I have a few things that I can account for my missing it but the rest doesnt seem to add up...

I was supposed to end up at 1.111 Instead I ended up at 1.082

Here is the Recipe:

Calculated Brewhouse efficiency was set at 72* so should be SG of 1.111
19lbs 2 row US Pale
2 lb of British Caramel
.25 lbs Carapils
.25 lbs Wheat (I think American)

Mash was low at 149-152* over 90 minutes...
Sparge was 165* for 20 minutes of continuous recirculation over the grains... through the March Pump.

My boil was a little longer than 90 minutes.

My total output from the kettle was close to 5.5 gallons... The recipe was for 5g even...

Even with the extra volume I would calculate I would only gain maybe 5-8 points from that.

Here is what I know is always good...

My crush is excellent... I run my wheat through my JSP Malt mill twice just in case.
Never have had a stuck mash since I switched to a manifold...
Measurement was verified by calibrated hydrometer and Refractometer so I know that I ended up with the correct sg (1.082)

What I don't know...

Water report?? I'm beginning to suspect that this could be the route of my problem.

Please help guys... This is getting really frustrating not being able to hit my target gravities.

You'll need to clarify some things for us. First, how much mash water did you use for your 21.5 pounds of malt?

When you say "Sparge was 165* for 20 minutes of continuous recirculation over the grains... through the March Pump" exactly what do you mean? Did you fly sparge? How much sparge water did you use. Please write out in detail the steps you took after your 90 minute mash.

Sorry bout that... Please allow me to clarify...

21.5 LBS X 1.3 = 7 Gal water Output was close to 4.5 gallons
Then sparged with 4.5 gallons of water output was close to 4 gallons Total was 8.5g in the pot...

After the 90 Min mash:

Sparged at 165* 20 minutes... I continuously ran my march pump at full opening output from the mash tun into the pump back into the mash tun over the top of the grains... being careful not to aerate and avoid HSA.


Hope that helps.

Ok, so you drained 4.5 gallons of first runnings. Then you added 4.5 gallons of 165F sparge water and recirculated for 20 minute before you drained it out. Did you stir really well when you added the sparge water or are you relying on the recirculation to mix it up?

If you didn't stir well, that hurt your efficiency. You'd think that the recirculation would throughly mix but it could have been channeling down through the grain and missing a lot of sugar. Stir really well for 3 minute, recirculate for another 3 minutes and drain it. There's no benefit to a 20 minute vorlauf in batch sparging.

Your sparge water temp of 165 also hurt IMHO. It can be at least 185F. Kaiser claims that the sparge temp has no effect on efficiency but I find that I lose 3-5% efficiency if I sparge too cold.

The problem is clear. You did not sparge with enough water to hit your usual efficiency. When making a really big beer you have to options. You can sparge the hell out of it and collect 12 gallons, then boil for hours. Or you can bite the bullet adjust your efficiency down to 60-65% add some more grain to hit your numbers and go with your typical size boil. When I brew 10 G batches I use 19-20 lbs grain, then sparge to 13 gallons going into the kettle. I usually hit 78-80%. The beer will still be good, just no quite as strong.

That is certainly true. Any time I want an OG over 1.090, I set my efficiency 10% lower than normal and plan to boil for 120 minutes. I also set my mash thickness to 2qt/lb and only use first runnings for the big beer. I use the sparge runnings for a smaller beer. That way you're able to hit your big beer gravity and not waste all that remaining sugar.

Ah ok thank you...

In response to the Boil time and runnings: I suspect that only using the First runnings would be beneficial in a Big beer and also adjust for 10% lower.

You are correct in assuming about the mixing during sparge... I did not because I assumed that the pump running full boar would do that mixing up by itself... Damn... I'll remember that for next time.

I was thinking also next time I could resort to using DME towards the end of the boil to hit those gravities as a last ditch effort.

Its too bad I didnt make another beer with the runnings... That probably would have been a better option...

So wait you are saying that the 165* temp is also a hurting factor?
I was under the impression that as soon as you sparge with anything over 170* you can extract tannins as well as de-nature the enzymes from converting any further?

If it was 165 in the MLT that is fine, if it's 165 form the HLT it's too cold. Ideally it should be 168 in the MLT. Don't sparge at 185 (as you know.) 180 watter usually gets my tun to 165-168. AFAIK 165 works great.

yes it was 165* in the MLT not the HLT...

I'm assuming he infused 165F sparge water. If that's the case, the equalized temp was probably in the high 150's. Infusing 185F sparge will get the equalized temp up into at least the mid 160's.

EDIT: OK, my assumption was wrong.

No worries... I just wanted to be sure that what you were saying was right... I can understand where you would assume that I infused with 165* water...

I do agree with you that I need to mix more thoroughly for my Sparge though...

Bobby_M said:

I also set my mash thickness to 2qt/lb and only use first runnings for the big beer. I use the sparge runnings for a smaller beer. That way you're able to hit your big beer gravity and not waste all that remaining sugar.

Click to expand...

Bobby, if you do this do you increase the grain in the recipe or does it come out as planned with 2qt/lb and no sparge? Also, how can you know what to expect for the second runnings batch as far as OG?

Brian

It was a trial and error type brew but the first trial came out exactly where I wanted it so it works for me. I used Beertoolspro to figure out how much wort I needed for a 2 hour boil. I took a guess that a 2qt/lb first runnings wort would yeild about 55% efficiency. I just kept increasing the malt bill until I saw 1.100 which is what my target was. Incidentally, the first runnings ended up being 60% efficiency. I then sparged 6.5 gallons for the smaller beer and that worked out to 25% efficiency on the overall grain bill. It sounds low but it was 1.055 OG.

The breakdown in efficiency between the big beer and smaller beer added up to 85% which is what my typical efficiency is. I'm sure there is some crafty formula to use, but it's safe to say that a 2qt/lb no sparge will yeild about 55-60% efficiency if you collect enough for a 2 hour boil. The balance of the wort you sparge will equal about 20-25%. I wouldn't want to do this without software.

OK, great to know. What type of beers were these? This sounds like it would work out really well for a barley wine. I'm going to file this away to revisit later.

Brian

OK... Just an update... I did a few different corrections to my brew day... I still ended up very low for a Brew house efficiency... (63%) Anyhow... Here are the corrections I ended up making:

Premixed Burton Water profile for the dough in water:
Stirred like all hell in the beginning and at the end of the mash in... Repeated for the sparge as well..
My target water was a little off... maybe by an end result of .25 - .5 gallons this time... But still wasnt that far off...

I brewed the Bell's two Hearted clone and ended up with a SG of 1.058.

My anticipated gravity was supposed to be around 1.066 calculated at 70% BHE...

My next beer will be the Ruination clone... I am going to run my grains through twice this time... I shouldnt have to but for some reason I did see quite a few unbroken whole kernels in the mash...

It's got to be the crush because there should be absolutely zero whole kernels. An uncrushed kernel is an unconverted kernel.

^^^ I agree... But seriously WTF>? I purchased a JSP Malt mill because it's supposed to get a great crush... Is it possible that I am running it through the mill too fast? I mean It's not going above 400rpm I know this... I am running it on the smallest gap as well...

I dunno... I do notice this though... when I pour my grains in before I grind... some fall through the rollers and into my bucket... I end up dumping them back into the hopper though...

Do you think there is a problem with my mill then?

Bobby_M said:

Kaiser claims that the sparge temp has no effect on efficiency but I find that I lose 3-5% efficiency if I sparge too cold.

Click to expand...

Just to clarify my claim: It should not affect your efficiency if all the conversion is done in the mash. But especially when mashing thick you may not convert all the starches in the mash and subsequent conversion happens during lautering. This is when you see the sparge temp affecting efficiency. The hotter the faster and more complete that conversion will be.

Kai

Given a mash that converts all the starches, which is more likely with 2 qt/lb than 1.3 qt/lb, and that you use only the first wort your pre-boil gravity should follow this table:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/images/3/3c/First_wort_gravity.gif

and your efficiency should follow the blue line on this chart:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/images/a/af/Lauter_efficiency_and_wort_strength.gif

Note that the above chart assumes only 15% boil-off. It will shift to higher efficiencies if the boil-off is larger. I.e. when you use more water in the mash.

These numbers are the best you can do with no sparge brewing or the first beer of a partigyle batch.

Kai