Question: Wyeast Calculator (Am I Doing It Right?)

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ishredthecello

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So I have a beer that hopville calculates should be 1.085 OG, now looking at the Wyeast Lab Pitch Rates (http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_pitchrates.cfm) shows a beer of this OG should have >18 Million Cells/ml.

Judging by what info I think is correct a Smack Pack of Wyeast Ardennes is about 6 Million Cells/ml? So that would mean if I just wanted to pitch the yeast I would need 3 packs (probably 4 to be safe).

Now comes in the starter calculator (http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_pitchrate.cfm). So using this I need 2 packets in a 1 gallon starter and that would give me 21.46 million cells/ml. (This is without a stirplate)

Is this math correct, I'm not all that familiar with starters, I tried one, but if this math is right, there is no way I did it correctly for a beer with a similar OG and I clearly didn't pitch enough yeast.

How would I make a 1 gallon starter? Or is 1 gallon really overkill? I would imagine easiest method would be to buy a 1 gallon glass jug and pitch it in there.

Something about this doesn't seem right to me, and screams I'm doing something wrong.

Does this make any sense? :mug:
 
Now when using the Mr. Malty Calculator (http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html). I choose Ale, 1.085, choose stir plate, it says I need 1 liter starter to make the starter and 2 packs. But this shows as only building about 16million per ml, where as wyeast says it should be about 18million per ml.

So what am I doing wrong here. 1liter seems more sensible to me than dumping another gallon in.

I saw a video where it says the calculation for figuring out cell amounts and all is 750k x plato degree. So my batch is 20.4.

760,000 x 20.4 = comes out to be about 15.5million. SO going by this Mr Malty is more accurate with getting me the 16million p/ml

Well I think I'm going to roll with the Mr. Malty version, but curious as to others thoughts.
 
I'm a little late, you probably already brewed and pitched...but heres my .02

Here is a quote from MrMalty about pitching rates & starter sizes:

"Why don't 1 liter starters produce more yeast, even with a stir plate? There just isn't enough food to build that much yeast, no matter how much O2 and nutrient you add to it."

Even thought Mrmalty calculator shows 2 packets in 1 liter starter, they also say that it should be stepped up a 2 or even 4 liter starter to get the correct quantity & QUALITY yeast you need for a big beer.

You need about 300billion cells for pitching into 5.25 gal. of 1.085 wort.
From MrMalty:
"Pitching a Wyeast Activator pack gives the following results within 12 to 18 hours:

1 liter starter = about 150 billion cells
2 liter starter = about 200 billion cells
1 liter starter, then pitched into 4 liter starter = 400 billion cells"

You could step up from 1 liter to 4 liter, chill, decant most liquid, shake it up and pitch 3/4 of the whole thing, that would leave you with some yeast for your next batch & come up with the correct amount of healthy yeast for this batch. Without a stir plate, you may want to just pitch the whole amount of yeast though. I would decant first, you don't want to water down your wort by a whole gallon!
Regards,
 
Nope, i haven't, because place that did my order for ingredients forgot to send the Yeast packets. So I'm unfortunately on hold waiting for it to come in.

So if one packet in 2L makes 200billion, 2 packets in 2L makes 400 billion?

I only have a 2L flask and can use a stirplate on that. So I think i'll make a 2l starter with 2 packets of yeast.

Here is a question on the decanting. How do I do that...run the stirplate for 24 hrs. then move the falsk to the fridge, decant the top liquid, leave a little liquid in (obviously keep the yeast cake), shake it up and dump the yeast in the primary after coming up to room temp?

How long should i let it sit in fridge? another 24hrs?
 
Go over to yeastcalc.com and use that tool to figure out what size steps you need for the batch. I've used a 2L flask, with old yeast, for a bigger brew this way. If you have a stirplate, then it will make things even easier/faster for you.
 
Go over to yeastcalc.com and use that tool to figure out what size steps you need for the batch. I've used a 2L flask, with old yeast, for a bigger brew this way. If you have a stirplate, then it will make things even easier/faster for you.

So I went over to yeastcalc.com. Typed in my numbers. I attached a screenshot of how I typed it in.

So I put 200billion as my starting number because that's what Wyeast says is in their smack packs. Is that what I should be putting there, and if I use two packets to put 400billion?

It says there if I put everything in correctly (those are the correct numbers for my recipe) that I need 1 packet in a 1.5l starter with stir plate to make 396billion of my needed 353billion? I hate that there are three different calculators that seem to give different information.

yeastcalc.jpg
 
Actually, on the Wyeast site, plus the packages, it's stated "100 Billion Yeast Cells"... No idea where you get 200 billion from, but you need two packets for that much cells (liquid yeast, dry yeast is typically 200 billion in the 11 gram package).

I would wait until your yeast arrives, since the production date is a rather important piece of information. Then run the numbers again.
 
Sorry yes, 100billion, i have so many numbers floating in my head now. 200billion is what i should have there as i bought 2 packages of the yeast.
 
so for secondary starters, how much wort do you make for second and third stage? Can I make a 1ltr wort, stir, crash, refill with another 1ltr wort, stir, crash, refill with another 1ltr wort, stir, pitch?

Or

Should with each step should wort size increase. I never heard of stepping yeast starters, seems sensible.
 
If you step up the size you don't need to crash and decant the starter. So the first step might be 1litter and 100 grams. For the second step fill with water to 2 litters and add 200 grams of DME. Keep in mind the ABV goes up as you do this, but with three or four steps over a week the cell death due to ABV should be low.

Wyeast uses one set of data for creating their calculator. Mr. Malty and Yeast Calc both use the same set of data from White Labs. It sounds like you got it, but these are more estimators than calculators. Every one does it a little different so your results are going to vary from the calculators. The rule of thumb that works for me is 10 billion cells per litter per degree Plato.

Personally, I think a microscope was the best purchase I made for this hobby.

Check out some pictures here:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2012/11/amscope-binocular-compound-microscope.html
 
If you step up the size you don't need to crash and decant the starter. So the first step might be 1litter and 100 grams. For the second step fill with water to 2 litters and add 200 grams of DME. Keep in mind the ABV goes up as you do this, but with three or four steps over a week the cell death due to ABV should be low.

That's fine if you have a flask that's large enough to accept the entire amount. If someone only has a 2L flask, though, that won't work. I've not had/seen any negatives from decanting (cold crash first) the starters. If anything, from what I've read, you'll get better reactions from the yeast than simply increasing the total volume with more/fresh starter wort. It comes down to the concentration of cells impacting the growth factor.
 
Ditto here. I have a 2L flask and stir plate. I like to keep the volume to 1-1.5 L to keep from foaming over, have to deal with blow offs in the fermenter don't want them in the starter. I use yeastcalc, I prefer the UI to mr malty. If I can't get where I need to be with a 1.5 L starter and one pack then I do one, chill, decant, pour the next step in, stir, chill, decant, pitch. Seems to work well.
 
So for stepping would this work.

Make 1ltr wort, cool, pitch yeast into, stir plate for 24 hours

put in fridge for 24(?) hrs, decant

Make another 1 ltr wort, cool, pitch yeast into, stir plate for 24 hours

put in fridge for 24(?) hrs, decant, pitch into 5 gallon batch
 
So for stepping would this work.

Make 1ltr wort, cool, pitch yeast into, stir plate for 24 hours

put in fridge for 24(?) hrs, decant

Make another 1 ltr wort, cool, pitch yeast into, stir plate for 24 hours

put in fridge for 24(?) hrs, decant, pitch into 5 gallon batch

Yes... I typically go for increasing sized starters, in the steps, but you can do same size if you want (or if it will give you the target cell count). I figure that +/- 5% is good. I try to not go more than 10% under/over the target.
 
Cool. I have a 2ml flask, so kind of limited there. I'll see the date on my yeast and go from there.

I know I can use pretty much any glass jar, wish I'd read more about it prior to picking up a new 2ml flask. seems like everytime i go to brew a beer I find a whole lot of new information.

But so it goes, if one looks to improve their beers :mug:
 
2L and 3L flasks are pretty common sizes. Far more useful IMO than a 1L flask. I use my 2L and 3L flasks most. I have a 5L flask, but I have yet to need to use that with doing stepped starters.
 
For stepped will 2L flask be able to do 2L of wort? If its on a stirplate since it won't "fizz"
 
For stepped will 2L flask be able to do 2L of wort? If its on a stirplate since it won't "fizz"

You'll want to do no more than about 1.8-1.9L of starter wort with the first step, and probably a bit less for additional steps. IF you go and add 2L of starter wort, you should add a drop (or two) of fermcap to the wort boil to prevent a mess.
 
Another possible stupid question. Can I do a larger 1st step then a smaller 2nd step? Seems I can plug it in that way on yeastcalc.com. Like do 1.5L 1st step then 1L 2nd step? Sound stupid, I know, but wondering why the calc says it'll make what i need.

(screenshot attached)

I just picked dec 1st as random date, i still don't have my yeast :(

you folks are so helpful, thanks! :rockin:

yeastcalc_largetosmall.jpg
 
If you flip the sizes, and go for a 1L first, you'll only need a 1.3L starter for the second step. So, less DME used.

Once you actually get the yeast packs, enter that info and see what you'll need. You could get yeast that's under two weeks old (depending on the vendor and such), which would mean either much smaller steps, or a single step.
 
Another possible stupid question. Can I do a larger 1st step then a smaller 2nd step? Seems I can plug it in that way on yeastcalc.com. Like do 1.5L 1st step then 1L 2nd step? Sound stupid, I know, but wondering why the calc says it'll make what i need.

(screenshot attached)

I just picked dec 1st as random date, i still don't have my yeast :(

you folks are so helpful, thanks! :rockin:

You're getting the hang of it :) This is why I like yeastcalc better than mrmalty. I would just do (2) 1.5L steps, that's a total of 300g (.66lbs) of DME between the two starters (Use 100g of DME per liter of starter).
 
There is a very detailed thread about yeast step-ups that recommended taking 10% of the 1st starter to innoculate a second starter, instead of decanting, & pouring new wort onto the yeast cake from the 1st starter step.
I did this with a culture of yeast from Bells 2 hearted Ale & had great results.
I had to step up a couple times from the small amount of yeast they leave in the bottle for conditioning, but the gist of it is this:
Once I got a 1 liter starter on the stir plate for 24 hrs, I cold crashed and ended up with a yeast cake of 135ml. (my container is marked). I decanted most of the liquid & swished it around to get the yeast in suspension, that gave me a 390ml slurry, I took 39ml (10% of the volume left from the first 1liter starter) of that slurry (about 50billion yeast cells) & added it to 1liter of new wort, after 24 hrs on the stir plate, I cold crashed, decanted, ended up with another 50ml of solid yeast cake, about 250billion cells according to MR malty.
The theory is, if you over or under pitch your yeast for a starter, you won't get the best results of healthy, high quantity yeast.
In a nut shell, I would take 10% of your 1st 1 liter starter & add that to a fresh 1 liter wort, instead of pitching the whole yeast into the 2nd starter.
regards,:mug:
*Edit* By the way, the reason for doing this is to avoid very larger starters for. 10gal batches that would otherwise need a 4 liter starter with a 5 or 6 liter container. Those are NOT cheap
 
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