Sweet Stout - recipe feedback. any thoughts?

I'm looking for feedback. I have a lot of research, but not too many batches under my belt. Thanks for any help.

11.00 gal (Brewer's Friend) London Malty Custom Water
14.54 g Chalk (Mash 60.0 mins)
4.85 g Salt (Mash 60.0 mins)
3.63 g Baking Soda (Mash 60.0 mins)
1.62 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins)
20 lbs Golden Promise (Simpsons) (2.0 SRM) Grain 6 75.5 %
2 lbs Chocolate (Dingemans) (340.0 SRM) Grain 7 7.5 %
1 lbs Carafa II (Weyermann) (415.0 SRM) Grain 8 3.8 %
1 lbs Carawheat (Weyermann) (50.0 SRM) Grain 9 3.8 %
1 lbs Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 10 3.8 %
12.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 11 2.8 %
12.0 oz Honey Malt (Gambrinus) (25.0 SRM) Grain 12 2.8 %
4.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min (30.4 IBUs)
2.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] - Aroma Steep 0.0 min (14 0.0 IBUs)
1.00 lb Lactose (Boil 0.0 mins)
1.0 pkg British Ale (White Labs #WLP005)
1.0 pkg Whitbread Ale (Wyeast Labs #1099)
7.33 oz Cocoa Nibs (Secondary 0.0 mins)
6.60 oz Chocolate Extract (Secondary 0.0 mins)
6.00 oz Vanilla Extract (Secondary 0.0 mins)
7.70 oz Cherry Extract (Bottling 5.0 mins)

The 2 yeasts are because I'll brew 10 gallons and split it into 2 fives for ferment.

Est Original Gravity: 1.064 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.046 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.020 SG
Measured Final Gravity: 1.010 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.8 %
Bitterness: 30.4 IBUs Calories: 151.6 kcal/12oz
Est Color: 36.4 SRM

Mash Profile
Mash Name: Single Infusion, Full Body,
Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 26 lbs 8.0 oz
Sparge Water: 9.07 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F Tun Temperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.20

Mash Steps
Add 36.33 qt of water at 167.2 F
156.0 F 45 min, Sparge Step: Batch sparge with 2 steps (1.59gal, 7.49gal) of 168.0 F water

Carbonation Type: Bottle Volumes of CO2: 2.3
Pressure/Weight: 8.90 oz Carbonation Used: Bottle with 8.90 oz Honey
Keg/Bottling Temperature: 70.0 F Age for: 30.00 days
Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage Storage Temperature: 65.0 F

Seems a bit complicated to me. I'm currently drinking my second go-round with a Sweet Stout that is fantastic. Is there a reason for the complication of your recipe? Are you trying to clone a commercial/craft beer? I've found that the best beers I've brewed are the simplest recipes. My Sweet Stout only has 3 grains and lactose. Came in at 5.7% and is very nice. Sweetened espresso is about the best way to describe it.

Mouse :rockin:

I spread the crystals across the lower end of the spectrum for the purpose of complexity (to give it interest). I got this from one of Jamil's recommendations.

My collaborator wants oats for silky mouthfeel, the wheat is because something keeps telling me to use some. So I made it a crystal to add body, a twist in flavor and proteins to hold the head.

The chocolate malt is for flavor, the carafa is for color.

The chocolate nibs are for aroma, the chocolate extract is for flavor. The vanilla is to accentuate the chocolate desert notion of the ale.

My collaborator also wanted to do cherry so that's why that's in there.

I'm still working out how to adjust my waters. I'm hoping someone can help me with that.

Here's the top of my removal list: the carawheat, the honey carbonation, the nibs, the carafa, the water additions (but our water is really hard - Los Angeles area).

jbock220 said:

Here's the top of my removal list: the carawheat, the honey carbonation, the nibs, the carafa, the water additions (but our water is really hard - Los Angeles area).

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I don't have a problem with making a complex beer, just saying that I find the simple recipes tend to be some of my best brews.

I've made an Chocolate Oatmeal Stout, it was a fairly complex recipe and didn't taste quite the way I was hoping. I figured going back to the basics first to see if I could repeat my first good Stout first and then try playing with it slightly for the next one.

What part of LA? I would double check the water report for your area before playing with the water too much. I'm east of there are have really hard water too, but for my dark beers, I just filter my tap water to remove the chlorine. The dark malts will take care of the high pH of the water in most cases. I only use pH Stabilizer for my light colored beers.

http://www.losangeleswater.org/water-quality-reports/

That should give you a better idea of what your water is like.

Mouse

Denny Conn was talking about how he develops a recipe and I kind of follow a similar path. Put everything in you think you want, then take out what you don't need. So i do plan to pair down the recipe. Just trying to figure out how.

I'm in Torrance. If I brew on the club equipment it'll be Torrance water. If I brew at my house it'll be Dominguez water district. I realize I don't have to soften my water for the beer to be drinkable, but I want an english style ale. I don't want sharpness anywhere.

I follow a lot of Denny's interviews and posts (built my 5 gal and 13 gal mash tuns with directions from his website).

That said, here is what BeerSmith has for London water:
Calcium: 52.00 ppm
Sulfate: 77.00 ppm
Magnesium: 16.00 ppm
Chloride: 60.00 ppm
Sodium: 99.00 ppm
Bicarbonate: 156.00 ppm
PH: 8.00

Here is East LA (the closest it has for your area). I couldn't find the water profile for Torrance or 'The Hills':
Calcium: 63.00 ppm
Sulfate: 151.00 ppm
Magnesium: 22.00 ppm
Chloride: 99.00 ppm
Sodium: 84.00 ppm
Bicarbonate: 0.00 ppm
PH: 7.90

Here is Riverside our water looks like this:
Calcium: 63.00 ppm
Sulfate: 151.00 ppm
Magnesium: 22.00 ppm
Chloride: 99.00 ppm
Sodium: 84.00 ppm
Bicarbonate: 160.00 ppm
PH: 7.70

Your water isn't too far off of ours out here in the IE.

Mouse

Thanks Mouse. I'm using Beersmith but modified my water based on Brewer's Friend's website. I blew my last attempt at water treatment (basing it on BYO recipe's) and am determined to get this one right. Below is what I should be getting +/- (+/- because the 24% source water is based on averages so I can't control what I actually get)...

Ca 85
Mg 5
Na 93
S04 40
Cl 94
HCO3 224

My notes: 76% Diluted (10gl purified water). Based on Torrance water. 10tsp chalk, 1 tsp Baking Soda, .5 tsp gypsum, 1 tsp canning salt.

What I'm not totally clear on with the water is that I know it's the mash water that's significant, but this will be all my water - regardless of Mash. I plan to test my pH, but do I really have to take the rest on faith, trusting the numbers?

jbock220 said:

Thanks Mouse. I'm using Beersmith but modified my water based on Brewer's Friend's website. I blew my last attempt at water treatment (basing it on BYO recipe's) and am determined to get this one right. Below is what I should be getting +/- (+/- because the 24% source water is based on averages so I can't control what I actually get)...

Ca 85
Mg 5
Na 93
S04 40
Cl 94
HCO3 224

My notes: 76% Diluted (10gl purified water). Based on Torrance water. 10tsp chalk, 1 tsp Baking Soda, .5 tsp gypsum, 1 tsp canning salt.

What I'm not totally clear on with the water is that I know it's the mash water that's significant, but this will be all my water - regardless of Mash. I plan to test my pH, but do I really have to take the rest on faith, trusting the numbers?

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Your numbers look about right to me, of course I've never messed with adding salts to my water with the exception of trying Gypsum on a few brews (gave me way too much head retention). Everything I've been told and have read, says that only the mash water needs to be treated for the pH. Again, with my darker beers, I just use charcoal filtered tap water and have had great results. I only use 5.2 stabilizer for my light malts and then only in my mash water. My sparge water is just filtered and heated tap water. I haven't tried to match a specific water for brewing, but I've read that distilled or RO water is usually the way to go, because you are generally adding only the things you want to it. In essence you are creating the water you want. I would imaging that is perfect if you are trying to clone something exactly, in my case I'm more interested in creating my own variations and tastes of classic styles.

Let us all know how you fair on this, it will be something to keep in mind for some of the softer watered brews.

Mouse

What you've said Mouse, is exactly what I've read. I am using RO "purified" water at 76%. The way I understand it, you dilute your filtered tap down to where the highest number falls in line with what you want. Then build the rest back up. There are other compounds in the water that you need which you won't get with 100% RO water.

I'll be brewing this in June, I'll def'ly try to remember to come back and let you know how it turned out.

Just heard Palmer say he puts a little wheat malt in most of his beers. I'm listening to a head retention BN podcast. I'm keeping the carawheat for head retention. I know it's going to help. It's only 3.8%, it'll cause some haze, but so what on a stout.

jbock220 said:

Just heard Palmer say he puts a little wheat malt in most of his beers. I'm listening to a head retention BN podcast. I'm keeping the carawheat for head retention. I know it's going to help. It's only 3.8%, it'll cause some haze, but so what on a stout.

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I've used both carapils and carawheat to add a little mouthfeel and help with retention. I tried the gypsum to see if there was any difference and I will say that I like having the added mouthfeel from the cara malts over the gypsum. I like listening to Palmer talk, he states everything nicely and can get technical if needed. Great opposite to Jamil, not that I don't like Jamil, just prefer John's way of presenting things.

Mouse

I agree, I like to listen to Palmer as well. For what it's worth, I slightly prefer beersmith's podcasts. Brad has less banter, and excellent guests, great information.

I prefer some roasted barley in my stouts- have you considered any?

I'm stocked for you at 2kids, I have considered it. The thing is I don't have reason for it. Especially amongst everything else. If you could give me a good reason that I haven't covered or a hole that it would fulfill I'f be very open to the idea. I like roasted barely. I'm just not looking for ANY roast astringency in this beer.

jbock220 said:

I agree, I like to listen to Palmer as well. For what it's worth, I slightly prefer beersmith's podcasts. Brad has less banter, and excellent guests, great information.

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I can agree with that. I can only take the BN stuff once in a while or if there is a specific topic. I wish that Brad could do his weekly.

Mouse

jbock220 said:

I'm just not looking for ANY roast astringency in this beer.

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I'll throw in my 2 cents.
I agree with those that say keep a recipe simple, THEN add ingredients as needed, not add everything then throw out what is not needed. You'll also learn a lot more what each ingredient does this way.

First, I would either make a starter for your yeasts or just buy two of each. Do the numbers on how much yeast you should pitch into this beer and you'll see that one smack pack isn't enough for 5 gallons regardless of what it says on the label.

Second, to reduce astringency do something different with that chocolate malt you've got listed. Choc malt is deceiving and I'm a supporter of those who wish to rename it. It is right on the edge of harsh so I would at least use a debittered malt or even go to a lesser amount of a black prinz type of malt, but either way get rid of the husks on those darker malts. This has made an improvement in my sweet stouts.
Lastly, WTF are you waiting for June to brew this?! You'll drive yourself crazy thinking about the recipe for that long and end up messing with it 4,000 times. Just brew it!

Good luck and keep us updated.

I just realized my "Carafa II" doesn't say "Special". It was supposed to be a dehusked. I was also planning on doing a quick 10 min. steep or a flash dip for color (I've gotten mixed messages on whether it does give a chocolate flavor. I haven't used it myself, so I'm going on research alone at this point.)

We signed on to the LHBC schedule for June. We just got a jump on the recipe. I've got a lot of others to do in the meanwhile. Though I'm only able to find a brew day once every 3 months or so. I'm working on changing this. Next on my list is a Rye-P.A., then a strawberry blonde for a friend's request this summer, and one more that is really pretty out there for me. I'll post it in another forum. Look for "Sauterelle".

Thanks for the input. I do really appreciate it.

(P.S. Correction - "stoked" not "stocked" for the 2kids reply.)