When does it get better than commercial?

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tlsmart1

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I dumped a bottle of my first homebrew down the drain today when my wife suggested I open the bottle of Koenings Hoeven Quadrupel that was in the fridge. It was a good choice - my first batch doesn't come remotely close. My second batch is showing great fermentation, but I'm skeptical that I'll prefer it over good commercial beer. How long does it take until you think, "No thanks, I've got my own?"

13536_216028386270_564376270_4585974_3851681_n.jpg
 
It takes some time to get everything dialed in, but most people get there when they find what they really love drinking and get really good at those styles. Then one day you realize you just made 5 gallons for the price of a 12 pack.
 
my 2 cents...
depends on how much research / practice you put in to it.
also if you're a good cook it's kind of similar in some ways.
my first batch was under attenuated and goofed in a couple of ways but things got progressively more awesome the more I kept at it.
 
Let it sit - let it age, let it condition. Unless you really screwed up, the beer will taste good once you let it sit.

Read up on Revvy's blog about patience & bottle conditioning. Watch the video link. It is worth thousands of words.

http://blogs.homebrewtalk.com/Revvy/Of_Patience_and_Bottle_Conditioning/

Your first batch may not be better than some of the best commercial brews - but I will bet that after a few weeks/ months, it tastes better than 50% of the stuff you could buy.
 
FWIW I'll never stop drinking commercial brews because I love learning. I do think however that after some time and dialing in my system I have the ability to brew certain styles as good as commercial breweries.

When I started brewing all grain the real magic began to happen.

If you're not at that point yet learn to control your fermentation temps and be rigorous about sanitation. That also made a huge difference for me.
 
It easily took me a couple years. I was too quick to move on to the next recipe that sounded cool instead of mastering the basics. Back then I didn't have the discipline to stop and try to figure out what I needed to work on.

I can brew good beer but the main reason I prefer it, it's too hard to find fresh store bought beer. I'll drink anything with suds, all I ask is it's fresh.
 
I think it's a good idea to brew something that is NOT a clone. that way you won't have something to compare it to and you can judge it as its own beer.
 
I guess I've never thought of dumping a homebrew and opening a commercial because I always want something different. I really like 99% of the stuff Sierra Nevada puts out, and I've liked all but one of my batches so far (3 months later and I opened a bottle from that batch I didn't like and got half way through a pint before realizing the off flavor I didn't like at first was gone). I like was commercial breweries make, I like what I make, and I see no reason to stick to one over the other.
 
I have liked everyone of the 6 batches I have brewed enough to not miss commercial beer. I still buy my favorite seasonals, but i could go without buying a sixer on any regular basis.
 
As the other folks have noted, you're always going to recognize that there are better commercial brews out there (as long as you're seeking out the ABSOLUTE BEST CRAFT BREWS), but you're also going to always have a love for the stuff you've crafted by hand in your own brewery.

Frankly, I'll take a brew I've made myself any day! Especially if it's the second or third brew I've had that day!
 
Stick w/ it. I loved the first batch of beer I made. It is really the reason we kept doing it. We have had our up and downs but all in all they are all good enough to drink.
There is no reason you cannot create a better beer at home than you can buy at the store. You have access to all the same stuff they do and you get to play around more in the brewery. I mean add that vanilla bean to that 5 gallon batch of porter, if it tastes like $#!T no real loss, If they do that on a 40BBL batch and it doesn’t turn out, it’s a big loss, so they don't play as much.
maybe a long winded response, but you get catch my drift.

Jay
 
After the third or fourth commercial barley wine I could pretty much drink home brewed piss and be just as content.
 
My first two batches both got infected and had to be dumped, but at this point I really do prefer my stuff over commercial, at least the cheaper commercial stuff. I would still probably rather have a Fullers London Pride then my own brew, but at 4.50$ a bottle vs. 0.50$ a bottle, I think my decision is already made for me
 
livErD69 said:
my 2 cents...
depends on how much research / practice you put in to it.
also if you're a good cook it's kind of similar in some ways.
my first batch was under attenuated and goofed in a couple of ways but things got progressively more awesome the more I kept at it.
Click to expand...

The intuition that good cooks make good brewers. This certainly seems to be true; at least, with natural born cooks -- those raised in kitchens from childhood.

Also, everybody goofs and especially so early on. In this regard research is key. You can limit your screw-ups by not trying to re-invent the wheel, so to speak.

When you first start brewing, it helps to have two sets of fermenters: two 6.5gallon primary fermenters and two 5 gallons fermenters. This way you can try making various partial-mash and extract kits with one set (so as to get practice and become familiar with different styles) and utililize the other set of fermenters for doing trial all-grain batches (until you become sufficiently confident to make the leap forward).

Don't try to brew amazing beer. Make regular everyday beer. Stick to the lower gravity brews that use one or two ingredients for a year or so. It is probably more vital to learn how one or two particular yeast strains behave and how they behave when you change one or two variables (temperature & time).
 
Maybe never, but realistically, you have to compare beers in the same style. My porters and browns are as good as anything commercial. But what do you compare a GF IPA, or a session rye to? I've never seen commercial examples of either.
 
I'm there! I'm making beer that I feel is head and shoulders better then many commercial beers.

I don't know how long it takes to get there. I suppose it takes a different amounts of time for different people. You'll know it when you get there.
 
I don't tend to brew clones, or even to style, so it's pretty tough to say what's better. Still, I'll never stop drinking commercial stuff any more than I will going out to eat.

Sometimes, I'll brew my own. Sometimes, I'll happily pay someone else to brew for me. Rock 'n' roll.


TL
 
david_42 said:
Maybe never, but realistically, you have to compare beers in the same style. My porters and browns are as good as anything commercial. But what do you compare a GF IPA, or a session rye to? I've never seen commercial examples of either.
Click to expand...

:off: It wasn't released in bottles, but Dogfish Head's Ryehoboth would probably be a good comparison for the session rye.
 
You also have to realize that those Belgian Monks have spent a few years perfecting their beer. To think that your first brew is going to be better than one of their best might be setting your expectations a touch too high! For my first few batches, my goal was "drinkable" while I figured out what I was doing. I still (nearly a year and a dozen or so batches later) think that that is an acceptable goal! (Although I think they are a bit better than merely drinkable.)
 
The answer to this question depends a lot on why you're homebrewing in the first place....and those motives have been covered pretty well in this thread.

What has not been addressed is whether or not your tastes have been adapted from commercial brews yet. Another thread I read recently dealt with the situation of a homebrewer's friends' rejection of his brew.....but if those same friends are acclimated to the taste of commercial beer, then they may very well not like homebrew. And it's as simple as that.

I think I was probably homebrewing a year before my taste had fully adapted to my own beer.
 
I think the cooking analogy made here is a good one.

I cook well, but being a decent cook doesn't diminish my appreciation for going out to a nice restaurant at all. I often love others' cooking just as I often (but not always) really like my own cooking. And when I cook, it is better tastes better than many restaurants that I might go to and worse than some others.

My brewing is the same -- it's better than a lot of commercial beers, worse than others. I certainly partially do it because I enjoy the results of my brewing. But I also brew because I enjoy the process. I find it to be a fun, interesting task. I feel the same about cooking -- SWMBO thinks I'm crazy this way, that I find cooking relaxing, but it's so different from the rest of my life that I find it really fun & enjoyable.
 
mkling said:
I think the cooking analogy made here is a good one.

I cook well, but being a decent cook doesn't diminish my appreciation for going out to a nice restaurant at all. I often love others' cooking just as I often (but not always) really like my own cooking. And when I cook, it is better tastes better than many restaurants that I might go to and worse than some others.

My brewing is the same -- it's better than a lot of commercial beers, worse than others. I certainly partially do it because I enjoy the results of my brewing. But I also brew because I enjoy the process. I find it to be a fun, interesting task. I feel the same about cooking -- SWMBO thinks I'm crazy this way, that I find cooking relaxing, but it's so different from the rest of my life that I find it really fun & enjoyable.
Click to expand...

fascinating! My wife is an awesome cook. So much so that her food compares well with that in any of the top restaurants. This coupled with the fact that I'm a cheapskate has ruined my appreciation of going out to fancy expensive restaurants. I almost always come away thinking it would have been just as good if not better at home and don't get me started on the price. The only foods I go out of my way to get at a restaurant are exotic ethnic stuff like Thai and Indian curry. My wife is great but she has not mastered the curry.

So most restaurants are usually disappointing. Especially the super expensive ones. Unless someone else is paying and then I can loose myself in the moment.
 
The biggest thing commercial offers is consistency. I think there's a wide range your beer can fall in and still be considered good. A given commercial will remain in a very narrow portion of that range. Homebrew will typically spread a little wider. Think of a tall skinny bell curve for commercial and a broader flatter one for homebrew.

I don't think it's at all unusual for one of my brews to better than a given commercial, but I won't be able to duplicate it precisely. They're not really using different ingredients or processes than me, they have much tighter process control, though.
 
it wil take until you work all the kinks out of your brewing process and do it correctly. (not that i think your doing it incorrectly now)
 
StAnthonyB said:
Don't try to brew amazing beer. Make regular everyday beer. Stick to the lower gravity brews that use one or two ingredients for a year or so.
Click to expand...

true that.

When it comes down to it, only a small group of the whole homebrewing population will get good enough to top (craft) commercial brewers. I would never claim to make a better beer than an Hennepin, or Goose Island Bourbon County Stout, or any number of other awesome brews available. Would I rather drink a Rochefort 8 or my homebrew? If I happen to have a 12oz bottle of it ($5+) then yes, otherwise Ill stick to my brew ($.50) for every day drink.

tlsmart1 said:
I dumped a bottle of my first homebrew down the drain today when my wife suggested I open the bottle of Koenings Hoeven Quadrupel that was in the fridge.
Click to expand...

dont throw out anything! If you are trying to copy a quad, it takes months to condition. My quad that I made a year ago was absolutely disgusting when I bottled, but now a year later is awesome.

13536_216028386270_564376270_4585974_3851681_n.jpg
Click to expand...

What is this one?
 
tlsmart1 said:
My second batch is showing great fermentation, but I'm skeptical that I'll prefer it over good commercial beer.
Click to expand...

If you have ever been to the GABF you would realize how odd your statement is. The GABF is supposed to feature the best beers breweries have to show but IMHO there are quite a few beers that tastes like sewer water.

You will be making award wining stouts before you know it and award winning pilsners thereafter.
 
vespa2t said:
true that.

When it comes down to it, only a small group of the whole homebrewing population will get good enough to top (craft) commercial brewers. I would never claim to make a better beer than an Hennepin, or Goose Island Bourbon County Stout, or any number of other awesome brews available. Would I rather drink a Rochefort 8 or my homebrew? If I happen to have a 12oz bottle of it ($5+) then yes, otherwise Ill stick to my brew ($.50) for every day drink.
Click to expand...

What did Hennepin or Goose Island do to make a beer you can't dream of equaling or besting? There's only so much that goes into a brew. They're not sprinkiling pixie dust in there as a secret ingredient.

Malt, hops, yeast, and water. That's wht they use and that's what we use. Mill, mash, sparge, boil, add hops, cool, add yeast, ferment, carbonate. That's what they do and that's what we do.
 
tomwirsing said:
What did Hennepin or Goose Island do to make a beer you can't dream of equaling or besting? There's only so much that goes into a brew. They're not sprinkiling pixie dust in there as a secret ingredient.

Malt, hops, yeast, and water. That's wht they use and that's what we use. Mill, mash, sparge, boil, add hops, cool, add yeast, ferment, carbonate. That's what they do and that's what we do.
Click to expand...

Thats a great point - and an inspiring one for a person new to homebrew.
 
My 1st batch wasn't bad. I use Sierra Nevada Pale Ale as the benchmark, for both quality and price (~$28/case). My homebrew wasn't as good, but definitely palatable and interestingly different (in a good way).

For years I attempted to make my own authentic Chinese chow mein at home, eventually realizing that Chinese restaurants' stove tops burn much hotter than I could ever dream of (as in 'making burn marks on carrots' hot!). Though now I do have a ~100,000 BTU propane burner for brewing...hmmm.... :rockin:
 
+1 to mkling's post. Sums up how I feel as well.

It's hard to define 'better'. My first batch when I got back into this hobby was a plain jane Cooper's Draught kit, and IMO it was better than most of the commercial canoe beer so many are accustomed to. But I've always looked for something different - I've been drinking Guinness well before it was a 'cool' thing to to.

As is often mentioned, the standard commercial lager offerings are some of the hardest to duplicate. But if a trappist style ale is something you enjoy, then you'll certainly find enjoyment in the brews you can easily make at home!

A Prost for this thread!
 
I've got a long way to go to be a good brewer, but the interesting thing to me in the 9 or so batches (all different styles) I've brewed since June is how much I've learned about the craft and the different styles. Whether or not I ever get to the point of being as good as a commercial brewer, I really kind of doubt it but I do know this, the beer I'm already making is plenty good for my tastes and from what I have learned already, now sometimes when I do drink one of the styles/brands I used to think were so great, now I think, I'd rather have my own than this ...
 
I like buying commercial beers and trying new styles/combinations/etc. It's an easy way to keep a diverse selection in the fridge, and since I don't have the capability to do certain things (e.g. lagering) commercial beers are my access to those styles.

I like brewing clones of beers I really like. If I'm going to drink a lot of a certain type of commercial beer, I might as well brew it myself for cost and the enjoyment I get out of brewing.

I also like brewing non-clones. I don't know that my beers are as great as a lot of commercial beers, but they are tasty, I enjoy drinking them, I enjoy the hobby, and there's a sense of satisfaction in popping open a beer and knowing it's mine.
 
vespa2t said:
What is this one?
Click to expand...

This one's a tripel. You should see it now - it has overflowed the milk jug, and there is wort in the overflow pan. A spider was attracted to it and died in the wort. The hallway smells like (good) beer. The dog is lying outside the closet pawing at the door because of the bubbling and the smell. I pitched a starter of about 2.5 liters of White Labs Abbey Yeast. I did a full batch boil but screwed up by starting with too much water, so the original gravity was 1.074 rather than the expected 1.080-1.084.

I don't mean to give the impression that I'm disappointed with the process or the results. My first attempt was meant to be a learning process - but I do really love some of the commercial Abbey style ales!
 
vespa2t said:
dont throw out anything! If you are trying to copy a quad, it takes months to condition. My quad that I made a year ago was absolutely disgusting when I bottled, but now a year later is awesome.
quote]

That's the thing about this hobbie/obsession. You like brews like Koningshoeven quadrupel and I think it tastes like bandaid crap.
At least the one I choked down did. I had three... the blond, tripple
and quadrupel and they all tasted of bandaid.

But yes it do take time to properly condition a brew, and brews
like this are meant to be aged before they come into their own.
Click to expand...
 
tlsmart1 said:
This one's a tripel. You should see it now - it has overflowed the milk jug, and there is wort in the overflow pan. A spider was attracted to it and died in the wort. The hallway smells like (good) beer. The dog is lying outside the closet pawing at the door because of the bubbling and the smell. I pitched a starter of about 2.5 liters of White Labs Abbey Yeast. I did a full batch boil but screwed up by starting with too much water, so the original gravity was 1.074 rather than the expected 1.080-1.084.

I don't mean to give the impression that I'm disappointed with the process or the results. My first attempt was meant to be a learning process - but I do really love some of the commercial Abbey style ales!
Click to expand...

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I'd think that a high gravity Belgian would be a really hard brew to get right, especially for a first beer. Did you use a kit or was this a recipe of your own fabrication?
 
stageseven said:
Maybe I'm wrong here, but I'd think that a high gravity Belgian would be a really hard brew to get right, especially for a first beer. Did you use a kit or was this a recipe of your own fabrication?
Click to expand...

It was a kit from Brewer's Best. I did brew a ESB first because I was tired of waiting for the back ordered kit to come in. I'm glad I did.

I didn't follow the kit recipe, exactly because 1) I thought full-batch boil would be better and 2) I didn't think the Nottingham yeast that was included would lend authenticity to the style. So I made a stir plate, ordered a tube of Abbey Yeast, made a 500ml starter which I stepped up to about 2.5L before pitching. Here it is about 20 hours after pitching; great fermentation, but look how much lower the beer level is in the carboy!

13536_216767131270_564376270_4591650_2959775_n.jpg


I went to Belgium this summer and only got interested in brewing after trying some great beers there and sampling more Belgian beer here at home. So it seemed only natural to attempt brewing my favorite styles. This was definitely another educational brew session, though.
 
I brewed extract for years and was always "satisfied" with my beer. After I went AG last year and had 3 or 4 batches under my belt, I finally started brewing beers that I thought were great. I now will almost always go to my beer first. I do buy commercial beers to learn about them, but now I always think "I could probably make that". That is way cool.
 
tomwirsing said:
What did Hennepin or Goose Island do to make a beer you can't dream of equaling or besting? There's only so much that goes into a brew. They're not sprinkiling pixie dust in there as a secret ingredient.

Malt, hops, yeast, and water. That's wht they use and that's what we use. Mill, mash, sparge, boil, add hops, cool, add yeast, ferment, carbonate. That's what they do and that's what we do.
Click to expand...

This is the operative quote. As a homebrewer, I refuse to allow myself to be "psyched" by commercial (or any other) beer. I make good beer now, and I work on my process and techniques to make it better.

A few things to remember:

1. There's a big psychological component to taste & smell. Always remember that the brain is behind our senses. We went into a local pub the other night to hoist a few pints, and walking in the door were hit by a strong smell of sewage. It appears that local heavy rains caused the sewer to back up in the basement. Well, we decided to stay for a drink. We got our beers, and within 5 minutes, we were not noticing the sewage smell at all, just enjoying the brew. Then the guys down there cleaning up must have dumped some sort of disinfectant in, because the bar started to smell like Lysol. Again, the smell seemed to diminish over 5-10 minutes until it was unnoticeable. Brain at work.

2. Taste & smell differ from one person to another. In some cases this can be genetic. I have a former colleague who can't stand cilantro in food, says it tastes like soap. I, OTOH love cilantro. Ultimately, it comes down to "Do YOU like your beer?"
 
The beer you made will take at least 6 months to taste right. You really shouldn't use a 5 gallon carboy as a primary, especially for such a big beer. I would recommend an 8 gallon bucket. Why lose all of that beer and the way it is set up looks like an infection waiting to happen. I jokingly call any beer that has an infection Belgian.

Forrest
 

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