Mash out and batch sparging?

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Q2XL

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I was thinking today about my batch sparging process and started wondering if I am doing it correctly. For some reason, doubt has entered my mind about my process. Here it is....Assuming a target temp of 152F

1) Mash in with 163F H20, hold for 60 minutes...I know everyones system is different

2) Vorlauf a couple of quarts until clear.

3) Drain 1st runnings

4) Add "x" amount of boiling water to raise grain temp to 170-175ish.

5) Let it sit for 5 minutes.

6) Vorlauf a couple of quarts.

7) Drain 2nd runnings.

8) Add "x" amount of water (approx 175F).

9) Vorlauf

10) Drain final runnings.

That is what I do. Any thoughts? Thanks.
 
When I batch sparge, that's how I do it too.

You don't have to do a mash out when you batch sparge, since you'll be bringing the grain bed up to mash out temps with the first sparge addition so two rounds of batch sparging of approximately equal runnings are ideal.
 
When I batch sparge, that's how I do it too.

You don't have to do a mash out when you batch sparge, since you'll be bringing the grain bed up to mash out temps with the first sparge addition so two rounds of batch sparging of approximately equal runnings are ideal.

Ok, I might be a little confused on the terminology and procedure. What is exactly the mashout? Is it adding hot water to the mash while the original mash water is still in the mash tun? Or is it what I do above after draining the first runnings?
 
Ok, I might be a little confused on the terminology and procedure. What is exactly the mashout? Is it adding hot water to the mash while the original mash water is still in the mash tun? Or is it what I do above after draining the first runnings?

A mashout is usually done at the end of the mash by infusing near boiling water to the MLT to bring the entire mash to 168 degrees. Then, fly sparging (continuous sparging) can begin by slowly draining the MLT while the sparge water trickles in at the same rate. There is no draining of the MLT. Or, if you have a way to heat the MLT, you can just fire it up to mashout temps without adding water until the sparge.

Or, you can mash out the same way, and drain the MLT and do a batch sparge. It's just that a mash out isn't needed for batch sparging, because you're infusing hotter water to bring the entire grainbed up to mashout temps quickly.
 
Thanks Yooper. I never knew that a mashout was adding the very hot water to the mash tun after the 60 minutes but before draining the tun.

I guess if someone does a mash out that they have to make sure that there is enough headspace in the tun after the initial mash for the extra mash out water.
 
Thanks Yooper. I never knew that a mashout was adding the very hot water to the mash tun after the 60 minutes but before draining the tun.

I guess if someone does a mash out that they have to make sure that there is enough headspace in the tun after the initial mash for the extra mash out water.

Yeah, unless they have a way to directly heat the MLT like with a burner!

I don't ever do a mashout with batch sparging.
 
So Yooper: What temperature is your tun at when you are sparging?
If I am mashing at 152 should I be raising my temps when batch sparging?
 
So Yooper: What temperature is your tun at when you are sparging?
If I am mashing at 152 should I be raising my temps when batch sparging?

Ideally, you'd add hot water (190+) for your first round of batch sparging so that your grain bed gets in the 168 range. I've noticed that this seems to maximize my efficiency. But if not, a cooler batch sparge isn't the least bit harmful.
 
I don't mashout when I batch sparge.

If I'm mashing let's say at 152, I usually add my sparge water when it's 170 degrees which gets the grains up to maybe 155 or 160 tops. (Edit: BACK UP to 155 or 160 after draining the first runnings.) I've never sparged higher than that. My efficiency has always been excellent, so I've never bothered to do it any differently.
 
Ideally, you'd add hot water (190+) for your first round of batch sparging so that your grain bed gets in the 168 range. I've noticed that this seems to maximize my efficiency. But if not, a cooler batch sparge isn't the least bit harmful.

Ok.. Thanks... I have always been worried about adding to hot a water for tannin extraction... Always tried to keep additions below 77C (170F) will add hotter water now to raise temperature before mashout..

My efficiency is low (72) aiming for higher and I thing this is affecting it..
 
I doubt a hotter sparge or 'mashout' will favor efficiency??? Crush perhaps?

+1 on this. Sparging is just rinsing the sugars from the grain. I don't understand why 10 or 15* would make the sugars diffuse that much faster and make the rinsing that much more efficient. With the runnings going straight to the boil kettle, can someone please explain to me the science behind this, and why this traditional step is more than just a waste of time?

As long as I'm ranting, I would suggest thinking about what you want, and why efficiency beyond 72% really matters. I'm in it for optimal flavor from my beer. Improved efficiency may get you a bit more alcohol, but seems to engender some risk for flavor. I much prefer making great tasting 5% beer to fair (or off) tasting 6% beer. If you just want more alcohol, this hobby is a really costly and labor intensive way to get there (unless you're underage!). Cheap vodka would be far more cost effective and "efficient"!
 
can someone please explain to me the science behind this, and why this traditional step is more than just a waste of time?

I'm wondering too. I know that raising the grain temperature to 170 denatures all of the enzymes that convert starches to sugars. So maybe it's to preserve the sugar profile of the mash without continuing conversion during run-off? To me that doesn't seem like much of a problem though. Draining the tun doesn't take very long and conversion should be pretty much wrapped up as it is.

Either way, it's a traditional step I've never taken, and until I hear a better scientific explanation, I'm also skeptical.
 
The reasons behind doing a mashout are pretty much not an issue when batch sparging because the wort is off the grain and on its way to a boil before those problems will manifest.
 
I batch sparge, and I only do one full sparge, as opposed to doing a double sparge. In other words, mash -> run-off -> full sparge with 180F water -> kettle. Is there anything wrong with this procedure? Efficiency seems to be fine.
 
I batch sparge, and I only do one full sparge, as opposed to doing a double sparge. In other words, mash -> run-off -> full sparge with 180F water -> kettle. Is there anything wrong with this procedure? Efficiency seems to be fine.

This is great. Denny suggests doing two equal runoffs, so you would either mash thinner or add top-off sparge water, stir, then run off first runnings. He said there was increase in efficiency doing this.
 
+1 on this. Sparging is just rinsing the sugars from the grain. I don't understand why 10 or 15* would make the sugars diffuse that much faster and make the rinsing that much more efficient. With the runnings going straight to the boil kettle, can someone please explain to me the science behind this, and why this traditional step is more than just a waste of time?

My brain says that the only possibility is that solutions are thinner at higher temperatures, so perhaps the sugars don't clump to the grain as much and are more easily removed from the grist. That's just conjecture, though.
 
If washing dishes, is it beer to rinse once or twice? I sparge twice because I feel it would be more effective for rinsing sugars out than one rinse. Plenty of people do both tho.
 
I don't mashout when I batch sparge.

If I'm mashing let's say at 152, I usually add my sparge water when it's 170 degrees which gets the grains up to maybe 155 or 160 tops. (Edit: BACK UP to 155 or 160 after draining the first runnings.) I've never sparged higher than that. My efficiency has always been excellent, so I've never bothered to do it any differently.

This is what I do.
 
If washing dishes, is it beer to rinse once or twice? I sparge twice because I feel it would be more effective for rinsing sugars out than one rinse. Plenty of people do both tho.

There is a point of diminishing returns.

How much useful sugar are you getting from your second sparge? Is it worth the extra time and effort?

How much of what you don't want are you getting from your second sparge? Is the extra sugar worth the risk?

For me, the answers used to be "no" and "no", so I only did one batch sparge. Now, with the massive increase in efficiency I get with the MM3, the answers are "no" and "no" for the first batch sparge, so I'm happy with no-sparge.
 
I batch sparge, and I only do one full sparge, as opposed to doing a double sparge. In other words, mash -> run-off -> full sparge with 180F water -> kettle. Is there anything wrong with this procedure? Efficiency seems to be fine.

If there is, I've been doing it wrong for 425 batches! ;) Except I usually us water around 200F for the sparge.
 
This is great. Denny suggests doing two equal runoffs, so you would either mash thinner or add top-off sparge water, stir, then run off first runnings. He said there was increase in efficiency doing this.

A _very_ small gain. I usually don't worry about it. I've started increasing my mash ratio so that I don't have to do an addition before running off the mash (did I mention I'm lazy?). I fond that if the mash and sparge runoffs are within a gal. or so of each other, it's plenty close enough.
 
allanmac00 said:
I batch sparge, and I only do one full sparge, as opposed to doing a double sparge. In other words, mash -> run-off -> full sparge with 180F water -> kettle. Is there anything wrong with this procedure? Efficiency seems to be fine.

I agree. Keep it simple.
 
So maybe I am thinking too much about this, but, once you run off your initial mash, we know that most of the sugars go with it. We also know that most of the enzymes go with it too. So you have your first runnings sitting in your kettle slowly cooling. Because your enzymes are in there too, and they are still active because you have not denatured them with heating, wouldn't they still be working, thus altering your preciously maintained mash temperature results? I guess if you were to batch sparge with hot enough water that to heat up the total drained volume (first runnings and now second runnings) you could stop enzymatic activity rather quickly, but I would imagine the water would be so hot that it could increase tannin extraction from the grist. Another solution would be to heat the kettle as soon as you have your first runnings. But what if you heat your sparge water with the same heat source? If you do two sparges then you can't heat your kettle during sparging.

Any thoughts? Is the amount of activity during that 20 or so minutes of sparging minuscule? Complete conversion doesn't necessarily save you from this as beta amaylase can work on products of alpha even after conversion is complete. Although I imagine its possible that it already completed what it could do to the alpha products during your mash...
 
SeminoleAle,

I have thought about this as well, some advise heating the brew kettle immediatly while collecting the first runnings to stop enzyme activity. Or, you could mash a little higher and let the additional conversion take place welcomingly. Or do a boiling water infusion, or mash out pioir to draining first runnings. At the end of the day, it really is as simple as mash, rinse and boil, or try a full volume mash, so it's just mash / drain and boil.

It really comes down to your practice, there is no right or wrong, just many different ways to recieve favorable end results.
 
SeminoleAle,

I have thought about this as well, some advise heating the brew kettle immediatly while collecting the first runnings to stop enzyme activity. Or, you could mash a little higher and let the additional conversion take place welcomingly. Or do a boiling water infusion, or mash out pioir to draining first runnings. At the end of the day, it really is as simple as mash, rinse and boil, or try a full volume mash, so it's just mash / drain and boil.

It really comes down to your practice, there is no right or wrong, just many different ways to recieve favorable end results.

I would say that most batch spargers, they put the first runnings on the flame right away. Once they heat to 170 and keep it there, they've effectively denatured the enzymes and the profile of the mash is "locked in". Or, they use extra hot water in the first round of sparging, effectively raising the temperature of the grainbed to 168 or so and then drain quickly and set the runnings on to boil.

Either way, it's a relatively quick trip to the boil kettle, where the enzymes are denatured quickly.
 
SeminoleAle,

I have thought about this as well, some advise heating the brew kettle immediatly while collecting the first runnings to stop enzyme activity. Or, you could mash a little higher and let the additional conversion take place welcomingly. Or do a boiling water infusion, or mash out pioir to draining first runnings. At the end of the day, it really is as simple as mash, rinse and boil, or try a full volume mash, so it's just mash / drain and boil.

It really comes down to your practice, there is no right or wrong, just many different ways to recieve favorable end results.

I haven't ever tried a full volume mash. My tun should have the capacity for any normal sized beer. Have you tried full volume mashes? What was your efficiency? Did conversion take longer?
 
I have been tinkering with this also. I just mashed 152 for 60, then mashed out adding 202F water, then vorlauft, drain, then double batch sparge 175F, vorlauft, drain. Worked like a charm. Too well in fact: est OG 1.067, got 1.080, made my black ipa an imperial!
 
This is great. Denny suggests doing two equal runoffs, so you would either mash thinner or add top-off sparge water, stir, then run off first runnings. He said there was increase in efficiency doing this.

Hi there sorry to bring up an old post but I just want to clarify the 'Denny Method'. Is the following correct?

1) Mash at the usual liquor to grain ratio 1.25qt/lb (2.6kg/l) or what ever you prefer.

2)After the mash, top up with the first batch sparge liquor in order to achieve equal runnings with the second batch sparge.

3) Stir the mash? let it stand for x amount of time for the grain bed to settle?

4)Vorlaurf until 'clear' and drain first runnings.

5) Top up mash tun with the remaining sparge liquor.

6)Stir the mash? let it stand for x amount of time for the grain bed to settle?

7)Vorlaurf until 'clear' and drain second runnings.

OR

1)Mash with a liquor/grain ratio in order to achieve equal runnings? i.e thinner mash

2)Vorlauf until 'clear' and drain first runnings

3)Top up with sparge liquor

4)Stir the mash? let it stand for x amount of time for the grain bed to settle?

5)Vorlauf until 'clear' and drain second runnings

Cheers!
 
Your second/lower set of steps is how Denny indicates he does it now. He said he used to do it like in your first/upper steps, but has opted for a thinner mash due to laziness.

In the grand scheme of things, do what works for you.
 
Your second/lower set of steps is how Denny indicates he does it now. He said he used to do it like in your first/upper steps, but has opted for a thinner mash due to laziness.

In the grand scheme of things, do what works for you.

Absolutely correct. It's equally as effective as the first method, and saves a step. FWIW, I mash anywhere from 1.66-2 qt./lb. these days.
 
Hello, I just tried doing my mash out along with my mash wort still in the mash tun, worked great and super easy.

To explain my method,
I mash in with around 1.25 to 1.5 qt H2o to 1 lb of grain @ lets say 153 deg for 60+ min, then instead of draining my first runnings, I add my sparge water to the mash tun to bring my mash temp up to 168 deg for 10 min, then vorlaurf till clear, drain entire mash into my kettle and start the boil.

This eliminates one more step and makes brewing (for me) even easier, I seem to be getting good efficiency being right at 82% using this method.

Before trying this, when I was collecting 2 separate runnings I was getting right at 82% also.

Is there any reason that I shouldn't keep brewing this way? or is there a good reason for collecting 2 separate runnings?

Cheers :mug:
 
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