20 lb of sugar and a jar of yeast nutrient

i used lemon and lime juice, which made a sugar I used in a "Belgian 2.5" a little sweeter, but it still just had a caramelized vanilla flavor - it tasted very similar at clear, blonde, and amber stage - only when it got super dark did I get a "toasty caramel" flavor - not as complex - just varying levels of vanilla and caramel intensity - you aren't going to get the light to dark fruits as a result of the DAP reaction. Some have said DAP isn't enough and have used other vitamins and minerals, Potassium stands out as an example - but, I couldn't speak to the use of any of those ideas out there as DAP alone, and especially in combination with the unrefined and especially date sugar, got me as close as you can probably get to the D products without buying them.

I use strictly DAP now, and like I said - any unrefined sugars you can use will give you a more complex flavor - especially the date sugar IMO

just add the sugar, water, and DAP together in the pot, put on medium heat, and use your candy thermometer and eye for the flavor and color profile you want.

Sugar #4 worked well for me but the gas let of during boiling are terrible. Flavor was good and tasted great after adding to a Belgian brune.

looks like a lot of fun - the smell is terrible and will clean out your sinuses and stay with you if you don't step away for a second or two - I try to have someone else with me that will give me a 2 minute break. The overhead fan and ventilation was a must for me - phew!

Will be interested to hear about your brune and what/if you notice anything from your sugar creation

dlaney said:

I've had success with the following that closely approximates Belgian D-2 that I bought at MLHBS. It is a slight modification of sugar #5 with an inversion step based on another web page (sorry I don't have the link):

2 lbs sugar + 1 cup water stir to mix
Heat to boiling, add 1 tsp lemon juice and boil 30 min at 212-220 f by adding water occasionally to control temp.
Add 1 tsp sodium bicarbonate and 3 tsp DAP, do not stir
Over low heat allow to reach 290 then carefully add 1 cup water. Allow to reach 270 then add 1 cup water. Take off heat when it reaches 230

The recipe called for potassium bicarbonate but I didn't have any. The small amount of sodium in the baking soda does not appear to have resulted in a strange flavor. Hopefully it will not affect the beer.

The taste is pretty close to D-2 with only a slight hint of added bitterness as an aftertaste. I got impatient and put the heat up to about half intensity which may have contributed to this difference.

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Did anyone ever experiment using potassium bicarbonate or lime to raise the PH. Would they result in different flavors

lemon / lime juice in my experience will give you a sweeter product in the lighter stages, but, has given me more bitterness the darker I go

I might consider just using the lemon or lime during the cool down liquid stage or a minute or two before it hits the final soft or hard crack temp

really though - the DAP with unrefined is just about spot on IMO. Getting your hands on, or making your own Date sugar will put you over the top in the fruits taste and aroma category - it really made a difference in my recent Dark Strong. Chewy, rummy dates taste and aroma from the sugar.

If you use El Dorado hops along with the DAP sugar using a portion of date sugar - you'll be happy - I promise!

CZs said:

lemon / lime juice in my experience will give you a sweeter product in the lighter stages, but, has given me more bitterness the darker I go

I might consider just using the lemon or lime during the cool down liquid stage or a minute or two before it hits the final soft or hard crack temp

really though - the DAP with unrefined is just about spot on IMO. Getting your hands on, or making your own Date sugar will put you over the top in the fruits taste and aroma category - it really made a difference in my recent Dark Strong. Chewy, rummy dates taste and aroma from the sugar.

If you use El Dorado hops along with the DAP sugar using a portion of date sugar - you'll be happy - I promise!

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I ment using Calcium hydroxide not lime juice. I had good luck using it. I just made a Dark Strong with some of the sugar I put date sugar in it as well. It is fermenting in my open fermenter and smells awesome!!

Just thought I'd add a couple more data points. Several people raised concerns about the fermentability of these syrups compared to Candi. I decided to run a few test batches before I committed to 5 gallons.

My test:
Sugar #1 = table sugar + DAP taken to 270
Sugar #2 = raw sugar + DAP take to 290, cooled and back to 290

Temps were raised very slowly and controlled with additional TSP of water while it boiled. Final temps were held for just a few seconds. Total time was 30 minutes for Sugar#1 and 60 minutes for Sugar#2

Taste/smell/color

Sugar#1 - quite sweet and mild caramel. Some vanilla and floral notes. Almost honeylike. Somewhere between straw and a light amber.
Sugar#2 - dark caramels, plum and raisin, dark fruit. No roastiness. Very tasty. Opaque black with some red tones on the edges.

I took each sugar and diluted with hot water to a 1.040 solution. (about 3 tsp for 1 Cup water). Each was put in a mason jar and cooled to 70 degrees. I pitched a bit of american ale yeast in both - no idea at dosage rates. Both were fermented at ambient temps of 75 for 1 week.

Results
Sugar #1 finished at 1.002 (temp corrected) = 95% attenuation
Sugar #2 finished at 1.003 (temp corrected) = 93% attenuation

Frankly, I'm pretty shocked by that, but numbers don't lie.

Yes my understanding is that all these cooked sugars usually ferment out almost completely. Which begs the question of why bother to make these?
In a less flavorful beer like a Belgian ale, they come through but somewhat subdued. I made the 290 sugar syrup with DAP but used it in a porter so it's undetectable. But What brought me to this thread was a basic brewing podcast in which they compared various sugar syrups and there was one that barely fermented at all and the beer was very popular. That's what I'm looking for.

Great, thread! I admit I haven't made it through every page, but could someone explain why I need to use a candy thermometer rather than a regular digital cooking thermometer (I use a Taylor 1470 digital cooking thermometer)?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00004XSC5/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Also, would LD Carlson's Yeast Nutrient work as DAP? It says "Food grade Urea and diammonium phosphate"?:

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/yeast-nutrient.html

"Yes my understanding is that all these cooked sugars usually ferment out almost completely. Which begs the question of why bother to make these? "

I think you are missing the point of belgian candi sugar then. It is supposed to ferment almost completely AND give flavor.

BridgewaterBrewer said:

Yes my understanding is that all these cooked sugars usually ferment out almost completely. Which begs the question of why bother to make these?
In a less flavorful beer like a Belgian ale, they come through but somewhat subdued.

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What Belgian beers are you drinking that you consider "less flavorful"? I think many Belgians are some of the most flavorful and complex beers I've ever tasted. The candi syrup is supposed to dry out the beer while contributing to the flavor profile. Of course most of the subtle flavors contributed by the syrup will be overpowered and lost in a porter or a stout...too much roast malt flavors there already. I bet it added a layer of complexity that would be missing if you brewed the same recipe without it though.

maybe they're right - the way they utilized it resulted in a brew with no noticeable contribution from the sugar other than abv, body.

I've always noticed it however in the bigger Belgians and the amber to dark saisons that aren't overloaded with specialty malts

Anytime I've gone 10-20% candi sugar in the bill, I've at least gotten from a hint to a nice rounded flavor - combining a sugar mix that is mostly D-180, slightly smaller amount of D-90, then the rest of D-45 creates a REALLY nice complex profile for BDSs. D-45 in Saisons is a perfect replacement for Special B / Caramunich II combo. The Simplicity equivalent has only been slightly noticeable and I've gotten better results with the 260-275 range - a more noticeable citrus and light vanilla flavor than the D product

The more fermentable the sugar the less flavor/mouthfeel that will be left behind. So if you put a lot in a Belgian ale you can taste it but to me it's a bit subtle. My point was that you can't detect it in a porter or stout the way that you could detect say maltose.

So I recently stumbled across recipes for traditional English ales on the blog of brewing historian Ron Pattinson (http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/) and am fascinated by this stuff. One thing that is pretty ubiquitous in these recipes is invert sugar. Appears there were countless manufacturers at the time, but basically four grades that were commonly used:
- Number 1 (30 EBC, or ~15 Lovibond)
- Number 2 (70 EBC, or ~35 Lovibond)
- Number 3 (130 EBC, or ~65 Lovibond)
- Number 4 (500 EBC, or ~255 Lovibond)

The milds, brown ales, double brown ales, etc were colored with "caramel", which although variable, was likely in the ballpark of 1400 Lovibond.

So, if I understand the chemistry and process correctly, the color of the invert sugar was dependent upon the degree of caramelization and not maillard reaction since I have not come across anything describing the use of an amino source during inversion.

I'm a bit confused about the "caramel" called for in these recipes for color. Anyone know how caramel colorant is produced? I'm guessing in a manner similar to the OP, with an amino source and significant maillard reaction in addition to caramelization in order to get enough color without scorching. So, would a 1400 Lov caramel colorant basically be "sugar #5" in the OP?

Look up caramel color on Wikipedia. That will give you some leads.

My first post!

I have a "dark strong" Belgian ale finishing fermentation (5 gal). The recipe has 3 lbs of D-180 (SRM=40). The point of my post is that the D-180 packaging indicates it has date sugar as an ingredient. How might date sugar factor into the target flavor profiles alluded to here and how might the home preparation process be modified to accommodate the use of it (and does it need to)? BTW, it is not clear if all the Candi Syrup, Inc. products have date sugar or just this one.

Thanks in advance

(I just found a reference to date sugar in this thread but nothing that addresses my Qs. It seems to me that it might be best to add the date sugar after taking the beet sugar syrup to 240F soft ball stage at least once and then bringing up the temp again. Probably will take some trial and error as I presume date sugar has a different scorch point due to impurities - any suggestions?)

Vinfriend said:

My first post!

I have a "dark strong" Belgian ale finishing fermentation (5 gal). The recipe has 3 lbs of D-180 (SRM=40). The point of my post is that the D-180 packaging indicates it has date sugar as an ingredient. How might date sugar factor into the target flavor profiles alluded to here and how might the home preparation process be modified to accommodate the use of it (and does it need to)? BTW, it is not clear if all the Candi Syrup, Inc. products have date sugar or just this one.

Thanks in advance

(I just found a reference to date sugar in this thread but nothing that addresses my Qs. It seems to me that it might be best to add the date sugar after taking the beet sugar syrup to 240F soft ball stage at least once and then bringing up the temp again. Probably will take some trial and error as I presume date sugar has a different scorch point due to impurities - any suggestions?)

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I can attest that I've utilized straight up date sugar alone from the very beginning, all the way to 300+ 4 times over (its a pain but if you are diligent with water it can work) with this DAP method and while it is probably a little too much burnt sugar, deep cocoa for my liking (seemed more intense than 180) it did contribute to a friend's porter very nicely, especially with coffee malt. Anyways - if you do a 1 part cane, 1 part dark brown, 1 part turbinado, 1 part date sugar up to 290 stage, cool down, and then back up to 270 (not necessary) you will get a very complex sugar that will go greatly with anything dark. I call it my D-75 - a nice inbetween that is great for Saisons in place of a caramel malt, or in conjunction with special b - especially if you like the more orange type saisons and/or malt-focused biere de gardes

saving this for later

I did a search within this thread and only found one post about using lactose sugar. Im curious if i should add some to this, or if i would be better off just adding the lactose sugar at bottling like i usually do and making the candi sugar as stated in the first post?

I would keep the lactose out of this. Add lactose to your recipe separately if you would like any unfermentable sugars in your brew. This candi sugar will no doubt get consumed by the yeasties.

Need some help here. Before I start, I checked my candy thermometer and it's accurate on boiling water. So I did 2 batches tonight aiming for a medium amber.

1st batch, heated water an sugar to 230 and added the dtp. Then heated to 185 to try to get between medium to dark. Ended up with a very dark syrup that has a burnt taste to the whole thing. Heated at medium on an electric stove entire time, did not stir until water addition.

2nd time figured I would do less heat. Same as above but heated to 170 then added water. Looks the same color, and tastes very similar with a less burnt taste. There are additional flavors, but the burnt sticks with me. When I say burnt taste...think burnt marshmallow.

Why am I getting super dark at both 170 and 185? To be honest, the dark color seems to develope at around 155 or 160 which seems way to low. The only time I am seeing amber ect, is around 140 -155. What am I doing wrong? I am sure this would be good in something, but to burnt taste for the golden draak clone I want to make this weekend.

I would suspect you are heating too fast. Turn the burners way down and slowly let the temp rise as the water boils off. Depending on your burner, you may need to add spoonfuls of water to slow the process.

billl said:

I would suspect you are heating too fast. Turn the burners way down and slowly let the temp rise as the water boils off. Depending on your burner, you may need to add spoonfuls of water to slow the process.

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Thanks for the recommendation. I will try this tonight and go slower. (I thought I was going slow enough since it took 30 minutes or so...but I am up for whatever may fix this issue.)

Just another thought - you might need a heavier pan/better conductor. The first time I tried, I used a super cheap pot. (Fear of wife killing me for ruining one of the good ones) It really didn't distribute heat well and I got some scorching. I'm sure I rushed it as well. I switched away from both at the same time, so I'm not sure which (or both) was key.

Any particular reason why this couldn't be done in the oven? Set it to your desired final temp with no risk of overshoot.

I think I found my issue...a combination of what was mentioned above.

1. I went to a smaller pot = thicker liquid and more coverage on the stove coil.

2. Because the pot now fit all the way on the big electric coil, I was able to heat on "low" and get a better sugar.

Only issue I still had was hitting temp. I must have cooked that darn sugar for an hour or more and it was slowly creeping, but I ended up pulling it at 150 because it was a deep dark amber color and I was afraid it would scortch if I keep it on. Great taste, but pulled at a much lower temp then a dark amber should be. Nice and thick too.

A accidentally added 3.5tspof dap To the 290. Will this be a problem?
It calls for 2.5

Too late. I rolled with it.

Okay after two failed attempts last nite. Today i went to the local brew shop The Pumphouse and behold belgian candi syrup D-180. Beer Gods were looking out, so we then adapted the recipe to only an half a pound due to the color and adjusted the crystal to 10 instead of 80, i believe it called for. oh yeah this was my first all grain brew, cant wait to par-take.

I am curious if anyone has the vital stats (roughly) for this if I want to plug it into my brew software.

As of now I am just adding it as lbs of sugar with 93% yield for the 290 syrup.

I think that will probably do OK.

I made this a couple of years ago for a dubbel recipe and it was fun but a pain in the ass to maintain temps w/o overshooting. Just got an induction heat plate with temp control and I can't wait to try this again knowing I can set the temp to nail different colors and flavors. Has anyone else tried this with an induction heat source?

Anyone tried this with honey?

It can be done with honey from what I've heard. If I recall correctly, clover honey is half fructose, which caramelizes about 20 or 30 degrees earlier than sucrose.

I think the whole point of this thread is to get complex flavors out of otherwise ordinary white cane sugar, so I don't know if these recipes would cross over to honey.
Personally, I love the flavors of honey in there natural state but I did find this and might have to give it a try!
http://honeyandspice.wordpress.com/how-to-2/caramelize-honey/

I did go for it. Im planning to make a bochet (boiled honey mead), and I ve done it before without adding water or DAP. It was cotton blossom honey from 2013, and was pretty damn dark to begin with.

12# honey, 2L water and 60g DAP. I went to 270*F (small boiling for 2.5hrs), and I fear that was too far... it is now black. However, once I diluted it 1.112, it smells nice like brownies and dark fruit. However, once the sugar gets fermented out I suspect there will be a fairly strong bitterness, as in an unpleasurable amount. Also, the pH is 2.4 which will have to be adjusted up before I start the ferment.

If I was to do it again, I would skim off all the foam that forms so it doesnt burn. Id also not exceed 250F. It sat at 230*F for a long time (~1hr). Went from 225-270 in about 40 minutes. I cooled it down fast right when it hit 270. I only went higher than 250 to allow for the Malliard reactions to commence. I imagine the phos acid from the cleaved DAP is what dropped the pH so low.

I think I would have stopped at 240 or so depending on what color and flavor were like at that point. Let us know how it turns out.

Yeah, I would love to hear how it goes.

It might not be standard to have bitterness in mead, but a little bitterness sure doesn't do beer any harm. Might be delicious.

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This technique can be applied to honey, but you have be pay strict attention as it goes fast and is easy to burn.

What would happen if you would cook the sugar under vacuum in a Sous-vide for a long period of time?

Just did this tonight and decided to add a pic for comparison. Last night, I made caramel syrup (left). That shade, which I guess is around 60L, took about an hour of boiling. Using this method, the one on the right, in my opinion, got to the deep amber level. I already smells like Nutella. I'm getting nutmeg, brownies and minimal marshmallow, but it still hasn't cooled down yet. As soon as it cools, I'll edit this post with smell and tasting notes. Thanks to the OP for the method. I thought the ammonia smell that fills the kitchen when boiling would ruin the batch once it cools. IT DOESN'T!