bicarbonates in water profile?

hi all, i have recently received a local water profile nut i can't figure out which relates to bicarbonates, i can't figure out how to attach the file so i'll write the info, all numbers are in grams per m3

ph 7.5
total alkalinity as cac03 24
dissolved calcium 8.17
dissolved magnesium 0.5
total hardness as cac03 22
dissolved sodium 1.05
dissolved potassium 0.34
dissolved lithium 0.0004
nitrate-n 0.05
chloride 0.9
sulphate 4.5
approximate total dissolved 38


any suggestions appreciated,
i'm also just getting into partial mash recipes-any suggestions which beer style would be best suited to this profile?

cheers
martin

I had the same problem trying to find out what my Bicabonate level was, so I contacted my water company and the Chemist e-mailed me this formula

Total alkalinity = carbonates and bicarbonates. Take total alkalinity and subtract p. alkalinity to give you your bicarbonate alkalinity.

I don't see any P Alkalinty on your list
Hope this helps or do what I did and call your water company.

Well I am not exactly sure where to find the bicarbonates, if their even expressed here. Doesn't look like they are though. I do know that Dublin has fairly alkaline water and they discovered that the natural acidity of roasted malts/barley lowered the pH naturally. So maybe a stout or something with roasted malts would be a good bet. Anyway, good luck, sorry couldn't help more.

batfishdog37 said:

So maybe a stout or something with roasted malts would be a good bet.

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Quite the opposite. That water is very soft; the OP can build that water to suit any style under the sun, just be sure to add enough calcium (50-100ppm) for happy yeast.

Here's a good water profile calculator.

944play said:

Quite the opposite. That water is very soft; the OP can build that water to suit any style under the sun, just be sure to add enough calcium (50-100ppm) for happy yeast.

Here's a good water profile calculator.

Click to expand...

Maybe I was thinking of somewhere else. OP?

So why would a stout not work for that water then?

Bicarboantes can be confusing. They are measured as CaC03 or HCO3. From every water report I have seen its been in CaCO3. Also, another point of confusion is that the measurement for bicarbonates is sometimes called Alkalinity (and that's usually when its measured as CaCO3). If you are using a calculator that is asking for HCO3 they should give a conversion method.

A CaCO3 of 24 is very soft water. The softer the water, the more it is suited to lighter beers.

Soft water is the best thing to have, because then you can use additions to tailor it to whatever you want. The brewersfriend calculator does a good job of guiding you through it. All of their info is taken from Palmer's How To Brew, which you can use to figure out your target levels, and then use the calcualtor to figure out how much of what to add.

At common water pH levels almost all the alkalinity of the water is present as bicarbonates. So you can multiply the alkalinity as CaCO3 with 60 and divide by 50 to get the amount of bicarbonates. In your case it is 30 ppm HCO3.

Where do you live? Seattle?

Kai

hi all, thanks for the info.

i live in queenstown, new zealand.

its approaching winter here and i was thinking of trying a couple of lagers if my profile was suitable, once the temperature has dropped a little bit more i think i'll give them a go

cheers
martin

Kaiser said:

At common water pH levels almost all the alkalinity of the water is present as bicarbonates. So you can multiply the alkalinity as CaCO3 with 60 and divide by 50 to get the amount of bicarbonates. In your case it is 30 ppm HCO3.

Where do you live? Seattle?

Kai

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I know where the 50 and 60 came from, but wouldn't you just say multiply by 6/5? Its a silly point, but I thought it was funny.

Also, I was not aware that pH was any kind of indicator of the alkalinity composition. Alkalinity is the sum of the carbonates (CO3) and Bicarbonates (HCO3). You could have any mix of either at any pH. The Alkalinity may effect the pH depending on the actual value of the pH, Alkalinity, and dissolved gases or minerals, but I don't think there is a direct correlation. Although I guess you could say that at a certain level of Alkalinity the pH will be in a certain range. But even that depends on dissolved gases and minerals, so I still think there is not a direct correlation.

And I have seen several water reports that report Alkalinity as total carbonate (CaCO3) not as bicarbonates. I don't know if they just use that as a common unit, or as I am assuming bicarbonates may not be the main component of the Alkalinity in at least some water sources.

the actual composition of carbonic acid, bicarbonte and carbonate depends on the pH. This is one of the principles of water chemitry. Also, while highly alkaline water generally has a higher pH, it doesn't have to be.

There are two excellent PDFs that A. J. DeLange has witten on that subject. I suggest them to everyone who wants to know more about alkalinity. I can't copy and paste links right now so you'll have to wait until tomorrow or go to the links page on braukaiser.com and find them there.

Kai

Dang dang dang, your water is excellent for brewing. You are lucky.

I bet you don't have chloramines to remove either.

Saccharomyces said:

Dang dang dang, your water is excellent for brewing. You are lucky.

I bet you don't have chloramines to remove either.

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i'm not sure, there may be some but there is no obvious smell, i'm planning on getting a filter at some point anyway

Kaiser said:

the actual composition of carbonic acid, bicarbonte and carbonate depends on the pH. This is one of the principles of water chemitry. Also, while highly alkaline water generally has a higher pH, it doesn't have to be.

There are two excellent PDFs that A. J. DeLange has witten on that subject. I suggest them to everyone who wants to know more about alkalinity. I can't copy and paste links right now so you'll have to wait until tomorrow or go to the links page on braukaiser.com and find them there.

Kai

Click to expand...

I wasn't aware of the first point. The second point was what I was wondering if you were getting at, because that is a common misconception, although for a good reason. I will take a look at the articles, thanks.

Here are the links to A.J.'s alkalinity papers for anyone else who is interested:

Part I: http://ajdel.wetnewf.org:81/Brewing_articles/BT_alkalinity/alkalinity.pdf
Part II: http://ajdel.wetnewf.org:81/Brewing_articles/BT_Alkalinity_II/AlkalinityPtII.pdf

Kai

I have really enjoyed using Palmer's updated spreadsheet. One of the best/user friendly water chem calculators out there. There are more complicated ones that can give you more control but this one is what i've been using lately.

Bottom of the page US/Metric versions
How to Brew - By John Palmer - Residual Alkalinity and Mash pH

boredatwork said:

I know where the 50 and 60 came from, but wouldn't you just say multiply by 6/5? Its a silly point, but I thought it was funny.

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Actually, the factor is 50/61, but 5/6 is close enough