Is My Starter Ready?

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JordanThomas

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Hey everyone,

I made my first starter on Wednesday night, and we are brewing a 1.068 dubbel on Saturday.

The vial we bought (WLP500) has a good by date of 2/23/2013.

I put 3 cups of water in with 1/2 cup of DME in a pan, boiled, cooled and pitched the yeast into a 2000ml flash. I know it's usually standard to do 2 cups, but our stir bar wasn't effective in such a large flask without a little extra water.

My first question is, will the extra water effect the starter? I plan on decanting after a cold crash, so I hope it doesn't matter.

There is a nice 3/4" thick yeast cake at the bottom of the 2L flask.

Second question... do I need to step this up (add more DME), or is this enough healthy yeast? If not, how much extra DME should I add? I've tried to use yeastcalc and mr malty, but as is the case with many, it confuses me a bit, and I'd like some reassurances from the wonderful community :mug:

Thanks!
 
okay let's look at http://yeastcalc.com/

you need 247 billion yeast cells. if you plug in your yeast manufacture date of 10/23 and plug in .75 quarts and intermittantly shake your starter, you'll end up with 135 billion cells. not enough. another .75 quarts gives you 191 billion cells. still not optimal, but close and personally i'd feel very comfortable with it at that point.

so what i'm recommending is add another 1/2 cup dme to another 3 cups water and add that to your starter. skip crashing and pitch tomorrow while the yeast is still really active and you'll be in great shape.

i'm assuming you get about 6 ounces by weight per cup of DME
 
You'll be fine. The extra water will just lower the gravity of your starter. This is better than having a gravity over 1.040. Since you plan on decanting, you won't thin your wort out either. As far as stepping up, I wouldn't bother. You might be on the edge of not enough yeast but I think a lot of people (including me most of the time) over pitch.
 
All is good but I will recommend you begin weighing out your DME instead of measuring by cup. It is just more precise and you can measure at a 10:1 ratio, ie: 100grams DME to 1L of water or 200grams to 2L, etc....This will produce a consistent 1.040 gravity wort which is ideal.

As for the required cell count for your beer, go to www.yeastcalc.com plug in the numbers including the date of your yeast and it will allow you to calculate the proper sized starter as well as additional steps required to achieve the proper pitch rate.
 
okay let's look at http://yeastcalc.com/

you need 247 billion yeast cells. if you plug in your yeast manufacture date of 10/23 and plug in .75 quarts and intermittantly shake your starter, you'll end up with 135 billion cells. not enough. another .75 quarts gives you 191 billion cells. still not optimal, but close and personally i'd feel very comfortable with it at that point.

so what i'm recommending is add another 1/2 cup dme to another 3 cups water and add that to your starter. skip crashing and pitch tomorrow while the yeast is still really active and you'll be in great shape.

i'm assuming you get about 6 ounces by weight per cup of DME

Well I used a stirplate, so I should have a bit more than that. I really think based on what you've all said, that I'll just let it go.

Thanks!
 
Meh, I'm of the opinion that any yeast starter is better than no yeast starter. Once you pitch, the yeast will do their thing and more is better than less, to a point.

A couple things I noticed that might help you improve...you're almost 36 hours+ into the starter, you generally want to try to aim for 12-24 hours, or high krausen. I generally do it the night before brew day. Longer ferments will insure your yeast aren't in the peak of their prime when you pitch. Also, the measurements above (100g to 1L) are a lot more accurate way of doing your starters than cup measurements.
 
cell growth is limited primarily by sugar in a starter, so the extra water should not effect the growth much. The best way to know is with a cell count, but a slurry that has settled to the bottom of a container is roughly 1 billion cells per milliliter. On your flask what is 3/4" equal to in volume?
 
Meh, I'm of the opinion that any yeast starter is better than no yeast starter. Once you pitch, the yeast will do their thing and more is better than less, to a point.

A couple things I noticed that might help you improve...you're almost 36 hours+ into the starter, you generally want to try to aim for 12-24 hours, or high krausen. I generally do it the night before brew day. Longer ferments will insure your yeast aren't in the peak of their prime when you pitch. Also, the measurements above (100g to 1L) are a lot more accurate way of doing your starters than cup measurements.

While I understand the timing issue, I figured I'd rather be safe and give myself the extra days to make sure the starter was good to go rather than be scrambling. I've read, though, that starters can be good for up to a week. The lag time doesn't really bother me, so long as it ferments well! And yes, I usually measure by weight for my priming sugar, but the pictoral I used was the simple "1/2 cup DME, 2 cups water." So I went that route. Baby steps, I suppose.
 
My first post!

I completed my first brew a couple of weeks ago- a simple Hefeweizen- found on this site. I used a starter of 1600 ml, which included 10-to-1 DME to water. It worked beautifully. 3 days ago I made my starter for the next brew- a Belgian Tripel- also found the recipe on this site. This starter was made with 2 cups sugar and 4 cups of water (read someplace on here that ratio was used). I followed the same steps I did the first time- boil water and sugar for 10 minutes, bring temp down to 74 degrees, shake the tube of WLP500, then open it and pitch the yeast. I am coming up on 72 hours at 74 degrees with this starter and it doesn't look like anything is happening. I don't see anything on the bottom of the flask. It's just a milky light brown color with only a few bubbles at the edges of the top of the starter. My use by date is also in late February, 2013.

Is 3 days enough time? Is 74 degrees too high? Was the 2-to-4 ratio of sugar to water too much? I forgot to mention, I am using a stir plate, too, like I did the first starter. Please help! Thanks.
 
I think you may have a problem there loubie. Typical ratio would be 100 grams of sugar to a liter, like your first batch. This makes about a 1.040 gravity wort, which is perfect for a yeast starter. If you used 2 cups of sugar, that's almost 400 grams of sugar and 4 cups of water would be darn close to a liter. I suspect your solution may have been too intense for the yeast to get up to speed in that starter, almost twice the typical amount. (Did you get krausen in the flask at all?)

If it were me, I would get a new vial of yeast ASAP and pitch it, especially if you're seeing no activity the day after the 72 hour mark. By the way, dry measurements would be approximately 1 cup of sugar to 4 cups of water, but dry weight is a better and more accurate means of measure.

74 degrees is fine for yeast pitching, but 60's are better. You can get off flavors that high and it can even happen in your starter. The first stages of life for yeast are the most important for temp control.
 
Is this on a stir plate running? If so you won't see at east cake until you turn off the stir plate and let things settle.

Did you use sugar or DME? Sugar is just a simple sucrose and will just ferment without much yeast growth, you want dry malt extract ideally as it is more like the wort you will be making for your beer.

If your starter is milky looking and you see a little foam and its been running that long, it's already done. Starters sometime don't always show any visible krausen.

Cold crash in the fridge and everything will drop and clear and you will see a nice yeast cake on the bottom. If you really used plain sugar , IMO you should boil up 100 grams of DME in 1L of water, cool, decant the liquid off your starter, add the new starter to it and let it ferment.
 
revco said:
I think you may have a problem there loubie. Typical ratio would be 100 grams of sugar to a liter, like your first batch. This makes about a 1.040 gravity wort, which is perfect for a yeast starter. If you used 2 cups of sugar, that's almost 400 grams of sugar and 4 cups of water would be darn close to a liter. I suspect your solution may have been too intense for the yeast to get up to speed in that starter, almost twice the typical amount. (Did you get krausen in the flask at all?)

If it were me, I would get a new vial of yeast ASAP and pitch it, especially if you're seeing no activity the day after the 72 hour mark. By the way, dry measurements would be approximately 1 cup of sugar to 4 cups of water, but dry weight is a better and more accurate means of measure.

74 degrees is fine for yeast pitching, but 60's are better. You can get off flavors that high and it can even happen in your starter. The first stages of life for yeast are the most important for temp control.

Thanks for the fast response. There has been no krausen at all. Should I just make a new starter? If there is a chance of off favors due my mess up and the 72 hours would it be better to start over and do it the right way?

Thanks.
 
duboman said:
Is this on a stir plate running? If so you won't see at east cake until you turn off the stir plate and let things settle.

Did you use sugar or DME? Sugar is just a simple sucrose and will just ferment without much yeast growth, you want dry malt extract ideally as it is more like the wort you will be making for your beer.

If your starter is milky looking and you see a little foam and its been running that long, it's already done. Starters sometime don't always show any visible krausen.

Cold crash in the fridge and everything will drop and clear and you will see a nice yeast cake on the bottom. If you really used plain sugar , IMO you should boil up 100 grams of DME in 1L of water, cool, decant the liquid off your starter, add the new starter to it and let it ferment.

Yes, it's on a stir plate and running. If I cold crash in the fridge and see a yeast cake will it be okay with no off flavors? Are you saying I should create a new liquid starter with 100 grams of DME and 1 liter of water boiled for 10 minutes and cool it to 74 degrees? Then pour the liquid into the cold crashed starter in the fridge? Do I add any more yeast? Thanks.
 
loubie said:
Thanks for the fast response. There has been no krausen at all. Should I just make a new starter? If there is a chance of off favors due my mess up and the 72 hours would it be better to start over and do it the right way?

Thanks.

I forgot to ask if I just pitch the new yeast into the starter without adding any more liquid? Thanks.
 
I forgot to ask if I just pitch the new yeast into the starter without adding any more liquid? Thanks.

Your biggest risk, with a delayed fermentation, is that another species or wild yeast will gain serious ground in a food rich environment. Yes, this can create off flavors or other problems. Continue on, though...never assume you've ruined a beer until it's simply obvious.

I generally try to end up with a final volume of 1L, not a starting volume. Boil off rates can be different for different pots/places. I aim to get there without adding water...usually I start with 1.7L, but you might start with something else. You can add water after the fact to reach 1L, but it's still best to boil it first for 10 minutes (then cool) or to use RO water.

A yeast cake forming after a cold crash doesn't guarantee viability, but it's typically a good sign since you don't usually start with that much yeast. Cold crashing is also how you initiate the decant to reach even larger starters for very big beers.
 
loubie said:
Yes, it's on a stir plate and running. If I cold crash in the fridge and see a yeast cake will it be okay with no off flavors? Are you saying I should create a new liquid starter with 100 grams of DME and 1 liter of water boiled for 10 minutes and cool it to 74 degrees? Then pour the liquid into the cold crashed starter in the fridge? Do I add any more yeast? Thanks.

No, you do not add more yeast, yes, after you decant the liquid from the cold crashed starter you add the new starter directly to it.

Off flavors are not an issue with starters and letting them ferment at 72-74 degrees is ideal.
 
Thanks for your help. I put the 72+ hour starter in the fridge this morning. Nothing hitting the bottom of the flask yet. Should it be a yeast cake by tomorrow morning? Also, when I add the new starter to the decanted old stater in the fridge, should I put it back on the stir plate for another couple of days? Thanks for your guidance. I'm glad to know there are people that are so helpful on this great site! I'm looking forward to many years of brewing!
 
loubie said:
Thanks for your help. I put the 72+ hour starter in the fridge this morning. Nothing hitting the bottom of the flask yet. Should it be a yeast cake by tomorrow morning? Also, when I add the new starter to the decanted old stater in the fridge, should I put it back on the stir plate for another couple of days? Thanks for your guidance. I'm glad to know there are people that are so helpful on this great site! I'm looking forward to many years of brewing!

There should be a cake in the morning and yes, after you add the new starter wort you put it back on the stir plate to grow additional cells.

Once all that is done, crash again and keep in fridge until brew day. On brew day, remove the starter, decant all but a little liquid, shake it up to create a slurry and pitch!
 
Well, I'm not sure the starter worked amazingly, but the yeast is definitely working. I know this because I forgot to take my OG reading before I pitched the yeast (remembered IMMEDIATELY after pitching so I took it quickly). I got some fermentation as I left the sample out on my counter over night and it was foaming out of my test tube. Hahaha... woops.
 
I checked the refrigerated starter again this morning and its still a milky liquid with just a dusting of yeast at the bottom of the flask. No yeast cake at all. Should I wait longer or is it done for?
 
loubie said:
I checked the refrigerated starter again this morning and its still a milky liquid with just a dusting of yeast at the bottom of the flask. No yeast cake at all. Should I wait longer or is it done for?

Give it to the end of the day and see if it clears, are you starting to see Kaye's like clearer at the top, hazy in the middle and yeast at the bottom?

Also re-cap how you made this. Was it DME or sugar( sucrose)? How much and what yeast and date of yeast? Something is off.....

If its not clear by the end of the day you may need to start over with fresh products
 
I have LME and DME for my recipe. Can I use that LME or shold I use the DME in my new starter? I'm getting ready to make a Belgian Tripel and I have 9.9 LME Pilsen for the full 60 min boil and 1# of Plain Amber DME that I was supposed to add at the last 3 minutes of the boil.
 
loubie said:
I have LME and DME for my recipe. Can I use that LME or shold I use the DME in my new starter? I'm getting ready to make a Belgian Tripel and I have 9.9 LME Pilsen for the full 60 min boil and 1# of Plain Amber DME that I was supposed to add at the last 3 minutes of the boil.

Use DME. Only weigh out what you need for the starter and use the rest in your recipe
 
duboman said:
Use DME. Only weigh out what you need for the starter and use the rest in your recipe

I used DME and the WLP500. It's bubbling, foaming, and looking good after 24 hours! I think I'll start my brew tomorrow pitch it tomorrow evening with 48 hours in. Thanks for your help!
 
loubie said:
I used DME and the WLP500. It's bubbling, foaming, and looking good after 24 hours! I think I'll start my brew tomorrow pitch it tomorrow evening with 48 hours in. Thanks for your help!

:rockin:
 
Well, I'm not sure the starter worked amazingly, but the yeast is definitely working. I know this because I forgot to take my OG reading before I pitched the yeast (remembered IMMEDIATELY after pitching so I took it quickly). I got some fermentation as I left the sample out on my counter over night and it was foaming out of my test tube. Hahaha... woops.

Just as a follow-up... My starter took my dubbel from 1.067 to 1.012 after 5 days! It tastes really good. Amazing that it attenuated that well. 82% for a yeast that has 75-80% attenuation. Hopefully that isn't bad.
 
Awesome! I hope the brew turns out well! Did you have a heavy boil off of liquid when you made your starter? Mine boiled off almost 33%!
 
Awesome! I hope the brew turns out well! Did you have a heavy boil off of liquid when you made your starter? Mine boiled off almost 33%!

Do you mean did my starter wort boil over? Yes. It went crazy as soon as it reached a boil and boiled over in my pot. I should have used a larger pot. Lesson learned.
 
To you both, when you start to see the foam, kick the heat down quickly and you will reduce the chance of the boil over. Give it a minute or two and then gradually raise the temp back up. You do not need to boil for a long time, only a couple minutes and then you are done.

As for the 5 day fermentation, that's awesome and if your temperature was in range you should have a great beer, but be patient and give it another week or two to condition and clear before you package! Cheers!
 
To you both, when you start to see the foam, kick the heat down quickly and you will reduce the chance of the boil over. Give it a minute or two and then gradually raise the temp back up. You do not need to boil for a long time, only a couple minutes and then you are done.

As for the 5 day fermentation, that's awesome and if your temperature was in range you should have a great beer, but be patient and give it another week or two to condition and clear before you package! Cheers!

Yea, I realized that as soon as it happened.

And yes, I always leave my beers for at least 2 weeks (besides BierMuncher's Centennial Blonde).
 
Actually, I was talking about the starter. I started with 1600 ml of water plus fermentables and in 10 minutes it boiled down to 1100 ml! I thought I measured wrong and added more water to the mix and it did it again! It seems like I remember boiling my first starter directly in the flask the first time (i boiled it in a pan this time) and I don't remembering it dropping that much in the short boil time. Maybe I drank one too many....
 
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