Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

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ultravista said:
How long was it @ 80 before dropping? When was your brew date?
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I brewed this five days ago, and it was probably at or around 80 for about 36 hours.
 
Crap, I wonder why the wort temperature dropped from 76 to 73. It started at 64 so over 30+ hours, it rose 12 degrees.

The wort dropped from 74 to 73.

Can the lack of insulation be the culprit?
 
ultravista said:
Crap, I wonder why the wort temperature dropped from 76 to 73. It started at 64 so over 30+ hours, it rose 12 degrees.

The wort dropped from 74 to 73.
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I think you're worrying too much. You may have fermented a little on the cool side, but I think it will be fine. If you're not able to get it to finish up you may apply a little heat. A lot of these Belgian strains will attenuate 75% in a few days, and then take 10 days to finish the last 5% is my experience with them, so don't be alarmed if it seems a little high.
 
Based on the volume of posts, the higher fermentation temperature contributes to the taste of this recipe.

I strapped a heater to the carboy and have it set for 79. It's a 15 watt seeding mat so it may take some time for it to warm 5.5 gallons.

For those that have fermented <80, how were the results?
 
ultravista said:
How long does WLP530 take to really start going? Albeit about 14 hours, I expected this to be volcano-like in a hurry.

It's up to 68F now ... just wondering when the stuff will start spewing.
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At the previous higher pitch rates (3200-3800ml) we had batches hit target gravity inside 36 hours...slightly too fast. It was so explosive that we had to mop the brew room. We then backed off to 2250ml and super-charged the starter with 2 shots of O2 and seeded the starter with 150 billion (340-360 billion at finish). We got a fairly good ester profile and hit TG in 5 days. Since then we backed off slightly again to a cell count pitch of around 320-330 billion in a 2000ml starter (seeded with 160 billion). We hit target in about 7 days with a very nice ester profile and a smooth palate. It's not explosive but it's very active for the first 3-4 days. As long as your pitch was the right count and healthy you'll be great.
 
Pitch rate was 1.5 ML of a two week old WLP530. While at 76, it was off-gassing pretty aggressively, a continuous gurgle.

Down at 73, it is quiet, very quiet. So quiet that I had to peel back the coverings to see what was happening. Lot's of activity but not crazy like it was 12 hours ago.

I expected a long and steady purge not a quiet nearly silent one.

When I do an Arrogant Bastard with WLP007, it is more active than this. From an off-gassing perspective.
 
Ok, so I was one of the ones that was worried about fusels with this yeast at 83F.. the hydrometer sample I drank today was completely free of this flaw. I stand corrected.


Since this is turning out to be a typical New England winter I had to heat my conical with a heat wrap and A419 controller. Normally I put this thing in the refrigerator and have it maintain 40-60F temps. Huge difference in my normal procedures.

After the yeast hit full krausen, I started the climb to 83F and held until today when primary fermentation has slowed down considerably. Nice ester profile..



@CSI just discovered your recipes on your website, thank you for your efforts. Next couple brews will be based off those..

photo.jpg
 
Here is a picture of the old world version 15 hours after pitching the yeast...temp currently up to 78



image-2763312101.jpg
 
My "active" fermentation only lasted a few hours before the krausen dropped into suspension. While active, it was really going; however, it did not last very long. I'd approximate it to be less than 8 hours, possibly 6.

A quick gusher that subsided quickly.

This is my first time with this yeast and such a high gravity wort. I was expecting something different. A spewing fermentation that lasts for days. From other's posts, active fermentation lasts for days, not hours.

Any suggestions on how long to leave the fermentation @ 78-79F? The carboy is now heated to maintain the temperature.
 
ultravista said:
My "active" fermentation only lasted a few hours before the krausen dropped into suspension. While active, it was really going; however, it did not last very long. I'd approximate it to be less than 8 hours, possibly 6.

A quick gusher that subsided quickly.

This is my first time with this yeast and such a high gravity wort. I was expecting something different. A spewing fermentation that lasts for days. From other's posts, active fermentation lasts for days, not hours.

Any suggestions on how long to leave the fermentation @ 78-79F? The carboy is now heated to maintain the temperature.
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I stopped maintaining heat when the gravity hit 1.015, figured that the residual heat would keep the yeast chugging along till terminal FG was hit.

It ferments out pretty quickly, surprised me as well.
 
I brewed up the Traditional on Dec 30. Used a 3L starter of 3787, and pretty much stuck to the recipe with exception of subbing s.goldings with fuggles.

Below is a link to a 55 sec video of it bubbling away. turn up the sound. Thanks for sharing the info! :mug:

[ame="http://youtu.be/v3QKyO8Ksm8"]http://youtu.be/v3QKyO8Ksm8[/ame]
 
ultravista said:
Pitch rate was 1.5 ML of a two week old WLP530. While at 76, it was off-gassing pretty aggressively, a continuous gurgle.

Down at 73, it is quiet, very quiet. So quiet that I had to peel back the coverings to see what was happening. Lot's of activity but not crazy like it was 12 hours ago.

I expected a long and steady purge not a quiet nearly silent one.

When I do an Arrogant Bastard with WLP007, it is more active than this. From an off-gassing perspective.
Click to expand...

Where is it on time / gravity at the moment? Estimated cell count?
 
Most know the following but wanted to have this posted for those just preparing for the Westy 12:

STARTER ASSUMPTIONS: 10P wort (1.040), two O2 infusions, stir-plate

STARTER 1: a 2000ml starter seeded with 100 billion cells.
RESULT: approx. 240 billion cells [some might categorize this is an under-pitch].

STARTER 2: same 2000ml starter seeded with 150 billion cells.
RESULT: approx 320 billion cells [slightly under book pitch rate but close].

We use Starter 2. It has been consistently effective for us under the right temps/times for Westy 12 clones. Primary TG (1.013) in 7 days. Secondary and crash drops a point to 1.012 without additional effort. Can achieve the same pitch rates with a number of starter volumes but the estimated cell count is the number to follow. The starter volume is relative and dependent on seed rate and wort quality.
 
Well, it's been 6 days now and I've brought it up to about 86 degrees. Took a cooled and degassed gravity sample, it's come from 1.094 to 1.015 and still fermenting. I am guessing I will see 1.012 easily if not 1.010. Taste is amazing, a nice wet straw profile with a delicious grainy bread character. A little hot, just a touch but much less than expected. I am planning on lagering this and bottling in the spring, but I won't be opening any till fall at the soonest.
 
CSI said:
Where is it on time / gravity at the moment? Estimated cell count?
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At 08:30 PM PST this evening, it will be four days since pitching the yeast. The starter was 1.5L of WLP530 (didn't have any more DME).

Krausen came and went pretty fast. It's still bubbling away at 80F. I applied external heat and wrapped the carboy.

I have not taken a gravity reading yet. A visible inspection is that it is still very active and off-gassing quite a bit.
 
Brewed this on new years day. Held it in the fermentor at 62 f for 24 hours (after 2 min pure o2 and pitching a 2 L starter) and now letting it free rise. It's a 68 this morning and ripping away (now at the 34 hour mark)

This was my first decoction ( old world) and my beta sacch rest was a little chilly ( 154 f) - I should have taken more "extra" thick mash to boil but I didn't so I had to settle. So far this looks really good and it looks like I am on target with my numbers.
Speak up if you have any idea how my issues will effect the final product... This was a fun mash... I'll be doing more decoctions in the future.
 
I'm at about 132 hours (5.5 days) since pitching. The carboy is heated to 80F and while I have not taken a hydro reading, the fermentation is finishing-up.

At what point should I let this cool down to ambient temp (approx 68F)?

Are there any negative consequences by leaving this warmer for a while?
 
ultravista said:
I'm at about 132 hours (5.5 days) since pitching. The carboy is heated to 80F and while I have not taken a hydro reading, the fermentation is finishing-up.

At what point should I let this cool down to ambient temp (approx 68F)?

Are there any negative consequences by leaving this warmer for a while?
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You won't know when to let it cool unless you're taking gravity readings..
 
Brewing this again in the next week or so.
Sounds like the perfect beer for my 50th birthday in april.
 
This sounds like a perfect beer to throw in my rum barrel after my imperial stout is out of the barrel. Of couse I'll have do to about 16 gal worth to fill the barrel. Talk about a spendy barrel fill! I'll have to mash it high and use some nice brett. Sure it won't be true to the original but brett just gets my juices flowing, what can I say.
 
I think mines done, at 1.010. I'm going to cut the heat and let it sit on the cake for 2 more weeks, then it's getting transferred to a 6 gallon carboy for the lagering phase.
 
How long have you had it @ 86F? I guess I'll break tradition and take a gravity reading tomorrow to see where it's at. This will be a first. Of all the beers I've brewed, the only readings I take are pre-yeast and post-ferment. I leave everything in the carboy for 3-4 weeks.
 
ultravista said:
How long have you had it @ 86F? I guess I'll break tradition and take a gravity reading tomorrow to see where it's at. This will be a first. Of all the beers I've brewed, the only readings I take are pre-yeast and post-ferment. I leave everything in the carboy for 3-4 weeks.
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By my calc's...Bomber had it in the 80's (86) for 'round 10 days or so before declaring it FG @ 1.010 and letting it cool to ambient temp starting today.

I assume once it's in the 60's the next step would be to rack to secondary and age it in the 60's for a little while (?) ....just guessing about that.
 
CSI said:
We use FM-15's so I can't comment on how plastic buckets work. 80-81F with Westmalle has never given us fusels over brewing this for the last 2+ years. It's not really a matter of "belief" as much as scientific and empirical evidence. Saq has been following BLAM to the letter on method (68F-82F 4-6 days) and has never had fusels as far as I know. His ale beat out a Westvleteren 12 and BJCP judges would have certainly dinged him way down for fusels.

We set to peak at 80-81F every time. According to White Labs 78F should also be producing fusels. Could this possibly be some other problem?
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So this little debate seems unclear. g-star sounds convincing and is in line with conventional "low temps reduce off flavors" line of thought. However CSI brings a lot of experience and is in line with BLAM and the original recipe posted here. I wonder if you're both right and it has something to do with differences in process. Are you both using exactly the same strain? Are we sure that westmalle strains from WLP and Wyeast are truly the same? Could it have something to do with fermenter shape or size? I've got a 7 gallon stainless conical and could get either westmalle strains. Wondering if anyone else could weigh in...
 
Hanso, good questions. I've read (and re-read) this entire topic.

I am leaning heavily towards saq and CSI as they have perfected the recipe and processes since its genisis on 11-19-2009.

g-star had points deducted for higher fermentation temperatures (and byproducts derived) while many others have done very well following the same process.

At the homebrew scale, would the fermenter size & shape have an material consequence?
 
ultravista said:
I am leaning heavily towards saq and CSI as they have perfected the recipe and processes since its genisis on 11-19-2009.

g-star had points deducted for higher fermentation temperatures (and byproducts derived) while many others have done very well following the same process.
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You should really try it both ways on your own system with your process, and draw your own conclusions. You'll learn about this fascinating strain and how to get it to behave as you like.

I know the OP and others claim success with fast/furious/hot fermentations, but I have not been able to get satisfactory results following that path. My version turned out better using a less aggressive approach, both to my taste and in objective scoring. Keep in mind other respected brewers (like Jamil Z) also have success with a more measured temperature profile.

Enter multiple versions into competition and see how they score. Sometimes objective feedback is best; pre-conceived notions/expectations can color self-evaluations.
 
g-star, where in PA are you? I grew-up in Newville and lived in Mechanicsburg, Harrisburg, Camp Hill, Carlisle, and New Cumberland.

I was back in PA in August.
 
I am in the high temp camp. I used a 84-86 temp to finish, then a long period at room temp, and then anther 5 weeks in my fridge. The beer took BOS at a Belgian only comp with 90ish entrants. I leave my fermentor open during the first few days of fermentation which helps reduce esters a little from the high temps. I have also gone without aeration and instead gave the Olive oil method a go. The results were very nice with the OO.
 
ultravista said:
g-star, where in PA are you? I grew-up in Newville and lived in Mechanicsburg, Harrisburg, Camp Hill, Carlisle, and New Cumberland.

I was back in PA in August.
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Philly metro
 
I add it to my boil, but in the Hull thesis paper he added it to the yeast a certain amount of hours prior to pitching. Then they did not aerate . It is tough to measure the necessary amount at our scale. At work using 100bbl fermentors and 1.5bbl pitches of yeast slurry it is measured in the microliters somewhere around 300microliters actually. That was based on the paper using whatever quantity in micrograms which I converted to uL using the density of oliveoil
 
CSI said:
After 5 long batches from last Fall we have decided on our favorite variation to saq's outstanding recipe. Most of our team from Candi Syrup, Inc concluded unanimously that this is as near perfect to an actual Westvletern 12 that we have tasted in our test batches using D180. Hats off to saq and team. Here is our adjusted recipe:

WESTVLETEREN 12 CLONE - VARIATION 005

SPECS:
Yeast: WLP530 or WY3787
Yeast Starter: 1.75L - 2.0L (Stir plate required)
Batch Size: 5.25 gal
IBU: 34
SRM: 35
OG: 1.092
FG: 1.012
ABV: 11.36%
Boil Size: 7.50 gal
Boil Time: 120 Minutes

MASH WATER
9.00 Gallons spring water.

FERMENTATION:
Primary: 7 days in glass @ 65F ramp controlled to 83F
Secondary: 7 days @ 65F
Additional: 49 days @ 50 - 52F

FERMENTABLES
3.00 lbs D180 Belgian-style Candi Syrup (Candi Syrup, Inc.)
12.0 lbs Dingemann's Belgian Pilsner
4.00 lbs Dingemann's Belgian Pale
0.10 lbs Belgian Debittered black malt (very important addition here)

HOPS
1.00 oz Brewers Gold [9.70 %] (60 min)
1.00 oz Hersbrucker [2.40 %] (30 min)
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [4.10 %] (25 min)

OTHER
1 - Servomyces tab (optional)

MASH SCHEDULE
Protein Rest: @ 132.0 F (9 gallons in), 30 min.
Low Saccharification: @152F. (Decoction), 35 min.
High Saccharification: @158F. (Decoction), 35 min.

NOTES
Note, add syrup at 3 minutes prior to flame-out. Chill to 65F. Pitch and ramp temp from 65F to 82-83F over 5 days and hold at 83F for 2 days more. At this point you should be near a gravity of 1.020. Rack to secondary at 65f for another 7 days then let "languish" for 49 days at 55-60F in glass. If your yeast is strong and your candi syrup is premium, (we're biased), you should hit terminal gravity 1.012 in about 21 days. Bottle or keg after another 28 days (total 49 days). Fantastic after 5 months...getting better every month after.

Final notes: the Brewers Gold hops was a very good choice for authenticity in this ale. It added that slightly needed additional flavor profile for a perfect Westy 12 clone. Also, saccharification temps at first glance look high but we found over trial and error that the higher temps contribute to the unique "chewy" mouth-feel and texture and helps the flavors linger on the palate. Last but not least, we tried to keep this recipe simple with the candi syrup, yeast, and hops developing the flavors on a simple base of 2 grains, (w/ a pinch of black malt for aging stability). This ale is a genuine work of art.

Cheers!

www.candisyrup.com
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CSI,

What is the purpose of dropping from 83 to 65 for 21 days to finish it off? what happens if you leave it at 83 until it reaches 1.012? I'm at 1.020 now i am getting banana flavors and im not sure if that's what is expected. Does the banana mellow out with age?
 
saq said:
I have gotten a few PMs from people who followed the two Westvleteren 12 threads I did regarding trying to clone this recipe and a competition with the other people who were in on it so I'm posting up my notes.

There are two ways of making this, a "New World" recipe that uses specialty malts, and a "Traditional" recipe that goes by the way Westvleteren has been making it for a while with just two basemalts and sugar.

The Pious New World - Took 1st place & BOS in the Westvleteren 12 clone comp with 43 points beating out a real Westvleteren 12 with 40 points.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 7.54 gal
Estimated OG: 1.090 SG
Estimated Color: 26.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 38.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
13.50 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 74.71 %
1.00 lb Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 5.53 %
0.50 lb Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Grain 2.77 %
0.33 lb Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 1.83 %
0.25 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 1.38 %
0.19 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 1.05 %
1.00 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (90 min) Hops 24.7 IBU
1.00 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [2.40 %] (30 min)Hops 5.0 IBU
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [4.10 %] (30 min) Hops 8.5 IBU
1.00 item Servomyces (10 min)
1.50 lb Dark Belgian Candi Syrup (80.0 SRM) Sugar 8.30 %
0.75 lb Amber Belgian Candi Syrup (40.0 SRM) Sugar 4.43 %
1 Pkgs Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 15.77 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Light Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
90 min Mash In Add 24.00 qt of water at 159.3 F 150.0 F


The Pious Traditional - I like this better than the New World.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 8.27 gal
Estimated OG: 1.092 SG
Estimated Color: 33.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 35.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
8.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (3.0 SRM) Grain 42.11 %
8.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 42.11 %
1.00 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (90 min) Hops 25.7 IBU
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [4.10 %] (20 min) Hops 7.0 IBU
0.50 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [2.80 %] (20 min)Hops 2.4 IBU
3.00 lb Dark 2 Belgian Candi Syrup (160.0 SRM) Sugar 15.79 %
1 Pkgs Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530) Yeast-Ale
1lbs sugar added to beginning of boil, 1lbs added to last 5, 1lbs added in secondary.

Mash Schedule: Decoction Mash, Double
Total Grain Weight: 16.00 lb
----------------------------
Decoction Mash, Double
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
10 min Protein Rest Add 32.00 qt of water at 137.5 F 132.0 F
30 min Saccharification Decoct 8.79 qt of mash and boil it 151.0 F
30 min Saccharification Decoct 4.85 qt of mash and boil it 159.0 F

Same yeast is used in both, and same fermentation schedule is used in both. Chill the wort down to 65f, pitch and let it self rise to about 82-83f and try to hold it there. The yeast will keep the temp there for about 5 days when fermentation is about 80% done (about 1.018) and start to chill down to 65f until you hit terminal gravity at 1.012 which should take 2 days. After this rack off into a secondary (I did kegs for both as I keg conditioned) and chill to 50f for 7 weeks, then carb however you want.
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Saq,

My first attempt fermented down to 1.020 in 2 days???? Any reason why this would happen and why yours took 5 days at 83f? i let mine self rise to 81 over the course of 24 hours and by 48 hours I was down to 1.020 already. I pitched a 3.8Liter starter without a stirplate(intermittent shaking) and no oxygen was added I just shook the fermenter so approx 8ppm max. Any thoughts??
 
ultravista said:
Did you dump the entire 3.8L starter or just the yeast? That's approximately 1 gallon.
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No i crashed cooled it until it all fell to the bottom and decanted before i pitched it. I didnt use a stir plate so i shouldn't have over pitched really.
 
klamz said:
CSI,

What is the purpose of dropping from 83 to 65 for 21 days to finish it off? what happens if you leave it at 83 until it reaches 1.012? I'm at 1.020 now i am getting banana flavors and im not sure if that's what is expected. Does the banana mellow out with age?
Click to expand...

Our current trial is at 017x. The 005 trial back in 2010 called for 7 days primary, and 7 days secondary at 65 and then cellar temps at 55F for 49 days. This was also before we began using FM-15's and the V350MS System for greater control over ramping.

Varying yeast temps to vary the ester profile was our goal then. Westmalle at 65-70F results in a combination of slight spice to grape esters. Higher, (74 - 80F), for darker stone fruit esters, etc. Too high in the range above 84F for banana. We prefer not to get into the range of phenols/banana. I have been told that banana phenols can age-out but have no proof either way.
 
The westmalle yeast produces a chocolate banana kind of flavor to varying degrees across the temperature profile, its fairly subtle and compliments well with fig/date kinds of characters it makes that are also present from the grist/candi syrup. Don't worry about your fermentation time to FG unless its going really long, but you will want to let it sit and condition per the guidelines outlined in this thread.
 

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