Whattawort
Well-Known Member
Another thought along the same lines of over priming might be head space. Just throwing that out there.
2 gusher infections in a row (I think). Bummed.
- Thread starter DialMBrewing
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Dial,
I have something interesting to share. I to have been having the occasional bottle gushers with phenols present which would most likely be the cause of wild yeast. I think i finally found out why and it's probably because my bottle cleaning process. This is what i've been doing.
I fill 2 pales with hot water one with PBW the other just hot water. I take used bottles (some with old yeast and funk at the bottom) and i dip them in the PBW bucket and scrub. I then bring the scrubbed bottles to the second pale where I rinse all the soap off. It then goes to the viniator where it gets sprayed with starsan. What's most likely happening is that the moldy old yeast that was in the bottom of the bottles are getting transferred through each station and ending up in the final product. The sugars that have been at the bottom of the bottles sitting the garage for months is probably the culprit so double check your process. If you used all brand new bottles then something is dirty with your bottling equipment.
A side note is that each bottle had a mix of high and low levels of phenols so that would mean that the infection happened during bottling. If it was prior to bottling each bottle would have the same level phenols/carbonation.
Ive noticed at the begining of this thread,that "think" and" Pretty shure" the right amount- were used alot with the OP about priming sugar. I havent read the whole thread,sorry and excuse me for that but to me it sounds like you maybe didnt know the volume you had compared to the right amount of priming sugar for the volume you actually had. Is this correct? Or did you come to a conclusion? I think the warm temps can make a beer more vaunerable if there is not a good seal in primary and its in a humid warm uncontrolled envirornment for an extended period,also.
Are you getting any visual signs from primary or tastes of infection from your hydro sample before bottleing? I would do some process elimination to find out where its coming from,so there is not a trend of it in the future. Something post boil is causing this. If you cant find out,replace your cheap tubing and bottleing stuff,make shure your bottles never dry with gunk in them (and bottleing equipement which should always be immediatly cleaned) they should be rinsed well soon after drinking if you reuse them.Ive had 100% success with hot flush- rinsing then later precleaning with a(hotwater/baking soda)- bottlebrush, dry, store, and sanitizeing before bottleing.As well as thourough rinsing/soaking/cleaning everything thouroughly and immediatly during and after bottleing.
Ive had overcarb and infection issues which Ive found the source and have learned from that and Ive been able to keep and manage those batches as well with consistant observation -any sign of overcarbonation-they go straight to the fridge-then I reveiw my logged notes for that batch to find out what went wrong. What you learn from your mistakes will only make you a better brewer.
Are you getting any visual signs from primary or tastes of infection from your hydro sample before bottleing? I would do some process elimination to find out where its coming from,so there is not a trend of it in the future. Something post boil is causing this. If you cant find out,replace your cheap tubing and bottleing stuff,make shure your bottles never dry with gunk in them (and bottleing equipement which should always be immediatly cleaned) they should be rinsed well soon after drinking if you reuse them.Ive had 100% success with hot flush- rinsing then later precleaning with a(hotwater/baking soda)- bottlebrush, dry, store, and sanitizeing before bottleing.As well as thourough rinsing/soaking/cleaning everything thouroughly and immediatly during and after bottleing.
Ive had overcarb and infection issues which Ive found the source and have learned from that and Ive been able to keep and manage those batches as well with consistant observation -any sign of overcarbonation-they go straight to the fridge-then I reveiw my logged notes for that batch to find out what went wrong. What you learn from your mistakes will only make you a better brewer.
Cheepbeer
Well-Known Member
I tend to agree with this 100% I'm a newbie and this is exactly what happened when I opened mine a bit too early.... beer everywhere!! I thought it was overcarbed because it had not finished fermenting.... Turns out the carbonation had not pushed its way back down into the beer.
New guy here... now resigned to waiting at least 20 days in bottle then 2 days in fridge before expecting good beer.
Yes, because the pressure goes up during the priming fermentation thats why its not as safe to use growlers to bottle prime with,they cant hold pressure as well as beer bottles.The amout of pressure in headspace in the bottle is greater at first then goes back into the beer,when there is no where further for the pressure to go. Thats why it needs to be chilled so it saturates and sinks back into the beer.
Where do people get this assumption from?
Which?
That the head space in a bottle conditioning beer somehow maintains a higher CO2 pressure than what is in the beer itself.
Probably why we dont open them warm as opposed to cold? If I pulled one of my overcarbonated beers out of the fridge now,would it be better or worse if I let it warm a few days before opening? MIne dont gush but they have creaping foam that will build to overflow as far as the chilled ones. I wouldnt feel very confident it wouldnt spew if I warmed it up.
It's no mystery that warm liquids give up dissolved CO2 more readily than if the liquid were cold, but I'm specifically talking about the notion that the headspace pressure spikes above the equilibrium in a closed system while bottle conditioning. While the yeast are producing CO2, it's more likely that there is more CO2 in solution than in the headspace if there is ever any difference at all. I always see people claiming that you need to give bottle conditioned beers more time "to let the CO2 dissolve into the beer" when it starts that way from the very beginning.
megalomani
Well-Known Member
Gotta disagree with ya on this one bobby, the yeast produce CO2 and it bubble through the beer but not all of it is dissolved in the beer. Solubility of gas is dependent on pressure and temperature, as pressure in the head space increases so will the solubility of the CO2.
Admittedly not the best source of info but here is what wiki says about Henry:
Henry's law is used to quantify the solubility of gases in solvents. The solubility of a gas in a solvent is directly proportional to the partial pressure of that gas above the solvent. This relationship is written as:
p=kH*c
where kH is a temperature-dependent constant (for example, 769.2 L·atm/mol for dioxygen (O2) in water at 298 K), p is the partial pressure (atm), and c is the concentration of the dissolved gas in the liquid (mol/L).
Admittedly not the best source of info but here is what wiki says about Henry:
Henry's law is used to quantify the solubility of gases in solvents. The solubility of a gas in a solvent is directly proportional to the partial pressure of that gas above the solvent. This relationship is written as:
p=kH*c
where kH is a temperature-dependent constant (for example, 769.2 L·atm/mol for dioxygen (O2) in water at 298 K), p is the partial pressure (atm), and c is the concentration of the dissolved gas in the liquid (mol/L).
Cheepbeer
Well-Known Member
"Thats easy for you to say!!" (wiggles cigar)
freisste
Well-Known Member
megalomani said:
Mega,
I am entirely behind Bobby on this one. Admittedly I am a newbie to homebrewing, but I have an engineering degree and a minor in physics. Your quote of Henry's law is an argument against your assumption that pressure in the headspace increases and then decreases. Henry's law describes a constant ratio of pressure in the headspace to total carbon dioxide in the closed system (capped bottle). If the pressure actually did go up and then back down, there would have to be a loss of carbon dioxide somehow.
Someone please correct me if I am wrong here.
megalomani
Well-Known Member
There is not a loss of carbon dioxide, there is carbon dioxide generated that was not there to begin with thus increasing pressure in the head space.
I can simulate the system with a tank of CO2 and a keg. Connect CO2 tank to out-post of keg, set CO2 to 30 psi, CO2 bubbles through beer and fills head space of keg. In a few minutes the head space reaches ~30 psi and close CO2 valve. Let sit overnight and much of the CO2 now is dissolved in beer, head space pressure will no longer be 30 psi.
If there was a bottle cap with a pressure gauge I would monitor pressure during bottle conditioning. My expectation is fermentation will cause production of CO2 that is faster than rate of dissolution creating pressure in the head space. As the pressure in the head space increases so will the rate of dissolution of CO2 into the beer. Eventually equilibrium will occur when no more CO2 is being produced and at a given temperature the concentration of CO2 in solution equibrilates with the pressure above the liquid (probably ~12-15 psi based on typical keg settings).
This can result in gushers if fermentation is very rapid resulting in excessive pressure in the head space and subsequently over-carbonated beer in the neck of the bottle. The CO2 will disperse throughout eventually but I can only guess how long that takes.
I can simulate the system with a tank of CO2 and a keg. Connect CO2 tank to out-post of keg, set CO2 to 30 psi, CO2 bubbles through beer and fills head space of keg. In a few minutes the head space reaches ~30 psi and close CO2 valve. Let sit overnight and much of the CO2 now is dissolved in beer, head space pressure will no longer be 30 psi.
If there was a bottle cap with a pressure gauge I would monitor pressure during bottle conditioning. My expectation is fermentation will cause production of CO2 that is faster than rate of dissolution creating pressure in the head space. As the pressure in the head space increases so will the rate of dissolution of CO2 into the beer. Eventually equilibrium will occur when no more CO2 is being produced and at a given temperature the concentration of CO2 in solution equibrilates with the pressure above the liquid (probably ~12-15 psi based on typical keg settings).
This can result in gushers if fermentation is very rapid resulting in excessive pressure in the head space and subsequently over-carbonated beer in the neck of the bottle. The CO2 will disperse throughout eventually but I can only guess how long that takes.
freisste
Well-Known Member
I will admit that Henry's law appears (I admit that I am not an expert) to be based on steady state conditions. What you are describing is a transient condition which would explain a peak and subsequent drop in headspace pressure. I wasn't thinking of this condition in bottling because I thought there was a relatively small amount of fermentable material in the bottle and yeast activity had already been reduced (I am very much NOT an expert in homebrewing, either).
At any rate, this thread is discussing bottle bombs and other issues weeks after bottling, long after the transient conditions you described. I'm happy to call this a draw and stop wasting other people's time. Good discussion, though. Cheers.
At any rate, this thread is discussing bottle bombs and other issues weeks after bottling, long after the transient conditions you described. I'm happy to call this a draw and stop wasting other people's time. Good discussion, though. Cheers.
megalomani
Well-Known Member
FWIW I am no expert either, I had a couple physics classes but am mostly talking out of my ass. I just am playing devils advocate, agree that this wouldn't cause bottle bombs.
megalomani
Well-Known Member
Besties forever, let me know if you want to brew sometime if you are ever in Cincinnati.
Cheepbeer
Well-Known Member
If you hold the bottle very still over the sink... and open it (snap) very quickly and fully.... I have a batch that gushes and this actually worked for me on the last few. If you open it too slow it strains to release pressure & gushes. Anyone else try this?
I'm sure it all can be explained away, but I thought overpriming too. Then I thought "if it taste's good it's probably not an infection". Then I thought, "did the OP put the beer in the fridge for a decent length of time so the co2 could all dissolve in the liquid?", and lastly I thought "even a boiled sugar solution is prone to incomplete mixing, a maple syrup solution is probably even more difficult to mix properly."
But if none of that helps, then, well, I'm out of ideas.
But if none of that helps, then, well, I'm out of ideas.
Hi jack, sorry, but related....
I have an IPA that pours with excessive foam in the glass. I don't know if they are "gushers" per sae. I always immediately start pouring into the tipped glass. This particular brew does not taste very good.
3 weeks in primary, stable FG. The sample at bottling time was clear, correct color and nice hop flavor and aroma.
The bottles were/are stored at about 75-80 degrees, going on 4 weeks now.
The first bottles I tried, went into the fridge at about day 20. The first one I opened, after 2 days in the fridge was darker color, foamy and tasted nothing like the sample from 3 weeks prior. I've tried a couple more since, and they are like the first bottle, dark, foamy and crappy.
I've never had overcarb problems before, so I know I have that correct. The color change is what gives it away for me.
I believe it's an infection and my bottling process is the culprit.
I have just been rinsing the bottles after each use and then running thru the DW before bottling. Same tubing for 13 batches now.
I brewed an IPA a while back, then two Belgians in a row, then the recent IPA. Both IPA's are crap and the Belgians are fine. Since the Belgian style has that wild and funky characteristic to begin with, could the infection be masked in those ?
I am going to do a major cleanup and nuke job on my equipment. Replace tubing, scrub and soak bottles and sh.t can the DW. I'm going back to soaking my bottles in OXY and then Idophor and then fill "wet" bottles.
I have an IPA that pours with excessive foam in the glass. I don't know if they are "gushers" per sae. I always immediately start pouring into the tipped glass. This particular brew does not taste very good.
3 weeks in primary, stable FG. The sample at bottling time was clear, correct color and nice hop flavor and aroma.
The bottles were/are stored at about 75-80 degrees, going on 4 weeks now.
The first bottles I tried, went into the fridge at about day 20. The first one I opened, after 2 days in the fridge was darker color, foamy and tasted nothing like the sample from 3 weeks prior. I've tried a couple more since, and they are like the first bottle, dark, foamy and crappy.
I've never had overcarb problems before, so I know I have that correct. The color change is what gives it away for me.
I believe it's an infection and my bottling process is the culprit.
I have just been rinsing the bottles after each use and then running thru the DW before bottling. Same tubing for 13 batches now.
I brewed an IPA a while back, then two Belgians in a row, then the recent IPA. Both IPA's are crap and the Belgians are fine. Since the Belgian style has that wild and funky characteristic to begin with, could the infection be masked in those ?
I am going to do a major cleanup and nuke job on my equipment. Replace tubing, scrub and soak bottles and sh.t can the DW. I'm going back to soaking my bottles in OXY and then Idophor and then fill "wet" bottles.
Rpwallace1
Member
My last batch of IPA was awesome (for about 3 weeks after bottling). It tasted great and the carbonation was perfect. Then one weekend I popped on open, went grab a pint glass and turn around to see the beer had turned to foam and was coming out the the bottle onto the counter top. After cleaning up the mess, I tried the once delicious IPA and almost ralphed everywhere. It was terrible bitter/soapy/astringent taste. It was as if my beer changed overnight. This sounds like it. I assume over priming would only lead to overcarbed beers/bottle bombs. Where as "gusher infection" is when yeast/wild yeasts eat the crap that should be left alone in the beer thus making too much CO2 and turning your precious beer into garbage disposal rinse.
That definitely sounds like an infection, but possibly a single bottle that wasn't washed completely.
Patro
Well-Known Member
If I dont refrigerate my brews for at least 2 days they are a lot foamier and sometimes gush. I realize you said 2 days in the fridge vonale but just a heads up for anyone else having these issues.
