Water Build for 59.8 SRM Porter

I am trying to build water from scratch for a 10 gallon porter batch. It has 20# of base malt and 7.75# of roasted malts and the SRM is 59.8.

Using the EZ Water Calc it's telling me I need roughly 23.1 grams of Baking Soda, which boosts sodium levels beyond desirable amounts. Any suggestions out there on ways to boost the pH on this batch without going overboard on the Baking Soda? As a side note I would prefer to avoid the use of chalk due to its decreased ability to dissolve in water.

Thanks in advance.

I would add:
0.75 g/gal calcium chloride
1.0 g/gal baking soda
1.0 g/gal chalk

That gives:
Ca 160 ppm
Na 72 ppm
Cl 95 ppm
HCO3 350 ppm

And an RA of ~170 ppm CaCO3. The sodium is getting borderline too high but I think it should be OK.

Edit: I assumed you meant you were starting with distilled or RO water. If not then obviously you'd need to know the starting water profile before you could determine what needed to be added.

Have you used chalk in the past? If so, did you just add it, or did you use acid/pressure to get it to dissolve?

Modest sodium levels are good for dark beers since it helps round the flavors. Exceeding 50 ppm is well beyond modest. Baking soda is not the only option, but you're not using the right tool to know that. Pickling lime is the best option for adding alkalinity and Bru'n Water is the tool you need to understand how to use it.

Chalk is an option for increasing alkalinity. But as noted above, its a poor and unreliable approach. Unless you're dissolving the chalk into solution with CO2, you won't really know if the intended alkalinity is actually added to the brewing water.

The recommedation to add calcium chloride is counterproductive since it reduces RA. If your chloride levels are currently acceptable, then avoiding that addition would be a good approach.

Bru'n Water is a little daunting to the first time user since instead of a single, simplified sheet, there are multiple sheets that step the brewer through their water adjustment process. But, once you understand the program flow and all the checks, balances, and guidance it provides, you'll probably find its very useful.

Thanks for the suggestion on Bru'n Water. I'll give it a go when I get home, and let you know what I come up with.

mabrungard,

Is there a how to on this Bru'n Water? I read through the intro and it left me scratching my head.

Brewing water chemistry is not a simple subject, so Bru'n Water can't make it totally simple. The problem is that some water programs don't take the time to help brewers from doing stupid things to their water.

Gordon Strong (multi-time AHA homebrewer of the year) just published an expert brewing book. I just received my copy yesterday and immediately paged to the water section. His take away point is for brewers not to mess too much with their water. Without guidance and a true understanding of brewing water chemistry, those other programs will easily allow brewers to hang themselves by adding too much 'stuff' to their water. Bru'n Water helps the brewer to avoid that and that means that you actually HAVE TO read the instructions and understand what you're doing.

There is a reader's digest summary of what you're going to have to do with the program on the first page of the instructions. Look for Program Flow Summary on the Instruction sheet.

Sorry it couldn't be simpler. I'm always open to ideas that can make it simpler, but its not that complicated as is.

I got my copy of Brewing Better Beer, I just haven't gotten through it yet.

I agree that water chemistry is a complicated task, and have had some success using the EZ water calculator on lower SRM batches but see that it has it's limitations with darker beers.

The one thing I've learned that less is more for sure when building water. I'll just have to sit down with the Bru'n Water and hammer it out. I appreciate your assistance.

Haven't seen Gordon's book but know from correspondence with him that he is of the less is better and KISS school (to which I am actually a relatively recent convert).

I've tried to capture the KISS aspect of all this in the Primer in the Stickies here. You might want to have a look at that - only take you 5 minutes if that.

ajdelange said:

Haven't seen Gordon's book but know from correspondence with him that he is of the less is better and KISS school (to which I am actually a relatively recent convert).

I've tried to capture the KISS aspect of all this in the Primer in the Stickies here. You might want to have a look at that - only take you 5 minutes if that.

Click to expand...

I'd say the advice in Gordon's book is extremely similar to the sticky.

He probably is a little more bullish on sulfate than you, as he brews more American and English ales, but he echos the no sulfate with noble hops mantra.

"Add 2% sauermalz to the grist." Does that mean 2% of the grain build should be sauermalz, or is that sauermalz that was treated with 2% lactic acid? I also just read the Gose article in BYO and it suggested to add the sauermalz after the 60 minute rest was complete, and let it sit for another 45 minutes after adding the sauermalz.

Just curious on your thoughts.

Yes, it means 2% of the grist should be sauermalz. Some sauermalz is made by spraying sauergut (wort fermented with lactic acid bacteria) on to ordinary malt and some is made by allowing the lactic acid bacteria found on the husks to grow at warm temperature. In either case the acid content of sauermalz is generally 1 - 3% by weight.

For this application the sauermalz should go in with the rest of the grist. It is there to get the mash pH down into the region where the malt enzymes do their jobs most effectively.

I should have figured that sauermalz addition for the mash on my own. The BYO article was using sauermalz for souring purposes.

So additions for a water similar to Burton one would go with 2 TSP CalChlo 2 TSP Gypsum per 5 gallons of water and then 2% sauermalz in the grist?

I assume I would add the CalChlo and Gypsum to the mash correct? I hate to rehash something that has probably been addressed in the sticky, but I've only had a chance to read through the first few pages.

This is a massive amount of roasted malts! I've used 18 lbs base + 4.7 lbs roasted malts in a 12-gallon batch of stout before and it's really at the top end of what I'd want. Don't forget that the fermentability of will be reduced. Mine started at 1.052 and finished at 1.018 using a different yeast in each of the 2 fermenters.

Do you mind posting your recipe?

M_C

bootney said:

I am trying to build water from scratch for a 10 gallon porter batch. It has 20# of base malt and 7.75# of roasted malts and the SRM is 59.8.

Click to expand...

The recipe is one if the big brew recipes for 2011 called "ROCKET ROD'S POSITIVELY PORTER - ALL GRAIN RECIPE."

Here's the link:

http://wiki.homebrewersassociation.org/RocketRodRomanaksPositivelyPorterBigBrew2011

bootney said:

So additions for a water similar to Burton one would go with 2 TSP CalChlo 2 TSP Gypsum per 5 gallons of water and then 2% sauermalz in the grist?

Click to expand...

Yes.

bootney said:

I assume I would add the CalChlo and Gypsum to the mash correct? I hate to rehash something that has probably been addressed in the sticky, but I've only had a chance to read through the first few pages.

Click to expand...

You could add them to the grist but it would be more convenient to add them to the water. I'll note that 2 tsp of each is a lot. That will get you something like Burton for sure but the best Burton ales are made with water of appreciably lower mineral content than Burton's.

And in reference to another recent post, note that no sauermalz is recommended for stouts and porters - the dark/roast malts contribute the acid you need. With additional acid there is danger of pH undershoot.

The reason for bringing up the Burton water profile was because one of the other recipes for big brew was the East IPA. They suggested a Burton water profile.

Your suggestion is to treat all of the water prior to starting?

So if I need 9 gallons of water to cover infusion, double batch sparge, and boil off I would add the appropriate items x 1.8 to treat the 9 gallons? Or if I was planning to have 5.5 gallons of wort would I want to make sure I have enough to treat the 5.5 gallons?

I would assume with boil off going from a treated starting boil volume of 8 gallons and finishing with 5.5 that there would be a higher concentration of minerals in the final wort that would make for less than desirable water profile?

I appreciate your assistance, and hopefully my questions are not becoming a nuisance.

"A" Burton water profile will be one that has elevated sulfate concentrations. "The" Burton water profile is one that has sulfate concentrations in the 600 to 800 range. I think AJ is correct in steering you to a less extreme version of a Burton water profile. Your beer will still have a hop pop if you limit the sulfates to a more reasonable 300 ppm or less. And it will avoid the excessive minerallyness that the more authentic Burton may convey into the beer.

bootney said:

Your suggestion is to treat all of the water prior to starting?

Click to expand...

It depends on how you like to work but in general, yes, it is easier to prepare the entire volume of water you will use for the entire brew day in advance. Some people like to treat sparge water differently from the way they treat the mash water.

bootney said:

So if I need 9 gallons of water to cover infusion, double batch sparge, and boil off I would add the appropriate items x 1.8 to treat the 9 gallons?

Click to expand...

Yes.

bootney said:

I would assume with boil off going from a treated starting boil volume of 8 gallons and finishing with 5.5 that there would be a higher concentration of minerals in the final wort that would make for less than desirable water profile?

Click to expand...

That would represent 31% loss which is quite a bit but yes, the minerals will be concentrated by about 31% if you did experience loss that high. As most people have lower losses they tend not to consider this factor but it is a factor.

LOTS of carbonate.

AJ,

You suggested purchasing a pH meter in the sticky. What are your recommendations?

Also going back to the post where I mentioned boil off I'd like to go into more detail about that. I do a 90 minute boil most of the time so that would explain the loss from 8 gallons to 5.5. I do as slow of a boil as I can so in now way is it jumping out of the kettle.

My previous methods with the EZ Calc was treating the mash and then having my "sparge" additions placed into the boil kettle after the lauter. Recently I had a beer with vary low efficency for water ever reason(not crushed as well from HBS?) so I boiled it down a little bit more to increase the OG. Well I treated 8 gallons of water but yielded only 4 gallons of finished wort. I bottled this batch last week and it turned into a salt bomb. Fortuantely there were plenty of hops to try and mask the salt to some extent.

So in going forward I plan to treat the mash as intructed by your primer, but I feel any additions to the kettle after that should be kept to a minimum, and try and have enough treated water to cover the final wort volume. Now I know this doesn't take into consideration what's left behind in the tun after the lauter, but after doing 20 batches with water building I feel I need to start over because my previous method was starting to show some significant flaws.

What are your opinions on Magnesium? Is it really needed to shoot for the minimum of 10 ppm per the EZ Calc?

One last statement here and this is detailing what I have for additions per your suggestions for a British Beer and me shooting for 5.5 gallons of treated water:

Mash Additions:
Gypsum: 4.5 grams(1 1/8 TSP)
Calc. Chloride: 7.225(2 1/8 TSP)
Sauermalz: 3.9 oz for a 12# Grist

Was also considering adding to the boil:
Epsom Salt: 2.25 grams(1/2 TSP)

This would be the water for the Big Brew "East IPA" recipe.

Thanks.

bootney said:

AJ,

You suggested purchasing a pH meter in the sticky. What are your recommendations?

Click to expand...

I use laboratory meters which, while they are very nice in many ways, cost well beyond what most home brewers would consider spending (but I drive a beat up old pickup). As a consequence I don't have much familiarity with the units that home brewers would be likely to consider. I did obtain one of the Hanna pHep units to get a general idea of what to expect from them but have not done much more with it than see to it that it takes cal and a few comparative measurements with a lab meter. It appears to be a pretty decent unit and, at the price, I think it's amazing. So I suppose I can recommend that and I think a lot of guys use these. But there are similar units at similar prices which may perform just as well.

I'd say that any meter that you consider should have a resolution of 0.01 pH a specified accuracy of 0.05 or better and the ability to do 2 point (2 buffer) calibration. If this were 15 years ago I'd say don't worry about things like ATC and automatic buffer recognition because you would pay dearly for them but in today's world both can be had in units costing under $100 and both make use (calibration and measurement) simpler.

Those are the most important requirements. The rest are bells and whistles and usually consist of things like the ability to connect other types of electrodes (DO, conductivity, ISE, ORP), the ability to record readings (manually or automatically), the ability to transfer readings to a computer and to take readings in response to computer command and the ability to transfer readings to thumbnail drive. One nice feature is found in meters that report slope and offset after each calibration (and store this data in memory). This enables you to monitor the aging of the electrode.

bootney said:

Also going back to the post where I mentioned boil off I'd like to go into more detail about that. I do a 90 minute boil most of the time so that would explain the loss from 8 gallons to 5.5. I do as slow of a boil as I can so in now way is it jumping out of the kettle.

Click to expand...

Even with a vigorous boil a more typical number is 10% per hour.

bootney said:

So in going forward I plan to treat the mash as intructed by your primer, but I feel any additions to the kettle after that should be kept to a minimum, and try and have enough treated water to cover the final wort volume. Now I know this doesn't take into consideration what's left behind in the tun after the lauter, but after doing 20 batches with water building I feel I need to start over because my previous method was starting to show some significant flaws.

Click to expand...

One of the main ideas behind the Primer is that, with respect to minerals in brewing water less is better - a concept that seems to be gaining traction in home brewing (the commercial people have known about it for years). There may be reasons for kettle additions but the usual goal of those is further pH reduction. As such, kettle additions are more likely to be acids than salts.

bootney said:

What are your opinions on Magnesium? Is it really needed to shoot for the minimum of 10 ppm per the EZ Calc?

Click to expand...

Malt contains a lot of magnesium. You don't need to add more and doing so violates the KISS principle. OTOH if you are striving for authenticity and the style you are brewing originated with high magnesium water you can add some. Magnesium is generally thought to render beers bitter and its laxative effect is often cited. OTOH I encountered a guy years ago that was certain that if all Americans would only increase their daily magnesium intake enough heart disease would be a thing of the past. There are correlations between regional longevity and water magnesium content so it's not as crazy as it sounds.

bootney said:

One last statement here and this is detailing what I have for additions per your suggestions for a British Beer and me shooting for 5.5 gallons of treated water:

Mash Additions:
Gypsum: 4.5 grams(1 1/8 TSP)
Calc. Chloride: 7.225(2 1/8 TSP)
Sauermalz: 3.9 oz for a 12# Grist

Was also considering adding to the boil:
Epsom Salt: 2.25 grams(1/2 TSP)

Click to expand...

I'd start with just a tsp of calcium chloride for the first go then add the gypsum in a subsequent brew. If you want to start with the gypsum in there be sure to try it again with, say, half as much.

Magnesium in low concentrations is a flavor enhancer in some styles. It does add a bitterness that can be welcome.

I have seen a journal article that proved that 5 ppm is the lower limit needed for good yeast performance, but I was not able to deduce if that experiment was performed using a wort or a sugar water. Malt does contribute Mg to the wort, so maybe there is enough in there already. I recommend the 5 ppm minimum in Bru'n Water just to be safe. Even 10 ppm is not going to produce a negative flavor impact in many styles. But you do need to recognize that the range of Mg concentration in wort is very small. When in doubt, leave it out!

Malt contains a lot of magnesium: ~0.13% by weight. That's 1.3 grams per kilogram which if mashed with 2 L of water would give you 650 mg/L. Some of this will be organically bound, of course, but 5 or 10 mg/L added as epsom salts is in the noise.

I found this out when my doggy got struvite bladder stones and the vet wanted me to put her on some special (and accordingly, expensive) low magnesium dog food. Tests confirmed that it wasn't appreciably lower than the regular stuff but it was in checking this out that I learned how much Mg is in cereal grains.

No harm in adding a bit if you want, though.

I just read through Strong's section on brewing water and it was an excellent read. I liked his idea of steeping dark malts separately. He stated he used Phosphoric Acid to get either his sparge or wort to appropriate levels. I'm curious as to how much effect Phosphoric Acid has on the water pH. Say the sparge water is 6.1 and one would want to lower it to 5.5, what amount of acid would be an appropriate amount? Or is it basically add a little, check the pH again and go from there?

I just ordered the Hanna HI 99151 Portable Waterproof pH and Temperature Meter so that should help with accurate pH measurements.

pH change is dependent upon the alkalinity of the water you're adding acid to. AJ presents a nice set of equations for calculating that effect on his website. Those equations are utilized in Bru'n Water and I'm sure they are in other calculators too. Good work.

So I guess the right thing to do here is to send the water(GV Distilled Water) off for testing to see what the alkalinity is of the water. I found a document in a Google search dated 2007 that stated the alkalinity of the same brand I use was 10. If that's the case a few drops of it should do the trick, but that would be based off of assumption.

mabrungard, would you happen to be M. Brungard that Strong refers to as having discussions with about the technical sides of brewing water?

Distilled water has an alkalinity of 2.5 (to pH 4.3). If the water you have has an alkalinity of 10 then it is not very pure having a bicarbonate content of 9 mg/L (assuming there is no other source of alkalinity beyond bicarbonate and hydroxyl ions).

If the 2.5 < alkalinity < 10 you won't need to acidify sparge water as it's buffering capacity is unappreciable compared to the buffering capacity of the mash/wort and pH will not rise above 6 until runoff gravity is very low (beyond the point where it is practical to keep collecting it).

To give you a rough idea as to how much acid is needed to change the pH should you insist on doing so anyway remember that the alkalinity number is the number of ml of normal (1 N) hydrochloric (or any other strong) acid required to move a liter of the water to pH to 4.3 multiplied by 50. Thus for an alkalinity of 10 you would require 10/50 = 0.2 mL of normal acid. Typical hydrochloric acid is approximately 12.4 N so that for 5 gallons of water you would need 19*.2/12.4 = 0.3 mL - not much at all. For DI water you would need 1/4 that much. These additions would bring you to pH 4.3 rather than 6 or 5.8 or something you might consider more suitable for sparge water but again, because of the low buffering capacity, that doesn't really matter.

With phosphoric things are more difficult to compute but as Martin has noted there is a set of formulae at www.wetnewf.org which you can punch into a spreadsheet but then he has already done this for you.

bootney said:

So I guess the right thing to do here is to send the water(GV Distilled Water) off for testing to see what the alkalinity is of the water. I found a document in a Google search dated 2007 that stated the alkalinity of the same brand I use was 10. If that's the case a few drops of it should do the trick, but that would be based off of assumption.

mabrungard, would you happen to be M. Brungard that Strong refers to as having discussions with about the technical sides of brewing water?

Click to expand...

How many M. Brungard's do you think there are in the world? ;-)

Especially ones that deal with beer! Yes, we have had discussions.

You would be the first Brungard I have ever had a discussion with. I must say it's an honor to have you as well as AJ to assist with this topic.

I did contact the company that produces the distilled water that I use and would like some input as to how to read this sheet.

Looking at alkalinity:

the first column is MCL mg/L and it lists it as "-" (established by EPA/FDA)

second column is RL mg/L it states 5

third column is distilled finished product and it states ND

So when looking at this data I would assume the alkalinity of the water is below 5 mg/L otherwise it would have been reported correct?

The pH for the water in this report was 6.2 just as an FYI.

The MCL is the "Maximum Contaminant Level" i.e. the most the EPA thinks you should be exposed to.

The RL is the "Reporting Limit" i.e. the level beneath which they do not report the level measured. This is usually related to the limitation of the test method being used.

ND means "Not Detected" above the RL. IOW if the RL is 5 and the measured alkallnity is less than 5 it will be reported as ND. This is reasonable for distilled water which has alkalinity of 2.5 which is less than 5.

AJ,

In your opinion, double batch sparging with this water(alkalinity 2.5 and pH 6.2) would not elevate the pH of the mash beyond the suggested maximum pH of 5.8 by the time the runnings hit a gravity of 1.008?

Probably not but I would check it. If it goes a bit over that's nothing to worry about. A little extra conditioning time will drop any polyphenol haze and you will know to add a pinch of acid the next time you brew this beer.

BTW the pH of 6.2 for your DI water is caused by dissolved atmospheric CO2. As soon as the water is heated that CO2 will be driven off and the pH will start to rise towards 7.

Alright guys I did my first batch after starting this thread and here are some results. I ended up brewing the East IPA for big brew. I had 12# of Maris Otter, .24# of Acidulated Malt, 1 and 1/8 TSP Calcium Chloride, and around 5.5 gallons of strike water. The mash pH was 5.47. I then did a double batch sparge of 2 gallons(untreated) for each and the final runnings had a pH of 5.72.

All in all it was a successful brew IMO and the pH readings were all within acceptable ranges. Thanks for all the help guys over the past couple of weeks.

On a side note a fellow club member brewed the porter from the top of this thread and we measured his pH at 5.22 and calcium chloride was the only addition following AJ's sticky. Thanks again guys.

bootney said:

On a side note a fellow club member brewed the porter from the top of this thread and we measured his pH at 5.22 and calcium chloride was the only addition following AJ's sticky. Thanks again guys.

Click to expand...

A mash pH of 5.22 measured at room temperature with a calibrated meter is too low for good beer taste characteristics in my opinion. Bringing that mash pH to 5.3 at the minimimum is a better goal and 5.4 to 5.5 is optimum. This one sounded like a minor alkalinity addition was prudent.

I'd like to see it a little higher to though 5.2 will probably be OK. Next time add a bit of calcium carbonate (better yet, do this to a test mash as CaCO3 is a bit unpredictable) trying to push up to 5.4. Then compare this one to the one at 5.22. If you like it better, go on up to 5.5 the time after that. It's all about being able to control pH, seeing what pH level gives you the result you like best and then controlling to that level in the future. A pH meter will take you where those who aren't willing to make the small investment just cannot go. IMO it is as valuable as a thermometer.

In all honesty I was surprised that the porter pH was as high as it was. We were pleased that it at least hit 5.2 without boosting the alkalinity of the distilled water. Going forward we will be able to make the needed adjustments thanks to the pH meter and your suggestions.

Brun,

Do you prefer to have the pH of all your mashes between 5.4 and 5.5?