Hermit
fuddle
I guess I'm at a loss as to what a wiring primer would include. I guess you have to lay out the areas that you don't understand and need elaborated on. Once you know the electrical part then wiring is just the physical aspect.
Electrical Primer for Brewers
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Then all you need to do is list the relevant paragraphs and direct the readers to them with the advice that they be sure to adhere to them. Voila! The manual for dummies. If anything goes awry you can't be sued because you advised that they follow the relevant code sections!
ingchr1
Well-Known Member
Here's a post I had in reference to codes for control panels:
muhteeus
Well-Known Member
Not bad ideas!
muhteeus
Well-Known Member
Typical Post: Hay guys, I bought $500 of parts today. Can anyone send me a diagram of how to wire.
Something that literally just teaches someone how to quickly wire a general circuit, since the wiring seems to be the biggest issue. I'm thinking we just need a RTFM primer.
Hermit
fuddle
There is no one diagram though. You place your components and figure out where the wires need to go from there. If you understand the schematic then that should all fall into place. There is a certain level of stuff you need to understand before you buy $500 worth of parts. Helping someone that can't draw out their schematic is not something I personally would attempt.Typical Post: Hay guys, I bought $500 of parts today. Can anyone send me a diagram of how to wire.
Something that literally just teaches someone how to quickly wire a general circuit, since the wiring seems to be the biggest issue. I'm thinking we just need a RTFM primer.
Again, no one is going to buy all the same equipment and want all the same layout. I don't see a primer. Understanding the circuit IS the primer. If they skipped that, well, their bad.
Agree, and even if you were to write a general wiring primer along the lines of what wire gauge, etc. you would need to over spec 95% of the design to cover the one when someone tries to power 5x 5.5kW elements and wonders why their panel ends up on fire.
muhteeus
Well-Known Member
I see. The idea sounded better in my head than in practical application. The existing electrical primer, along with some common sense should cover the basics.
Aceandover
Active Member
So this says that 10awg should handle 30amps but all the 10 awg at my local stores say 20 amps, do I need to find 10 rated for 30 amp or will the 20 amp be ok
Btw I'll be just running the camco 5500w element and a pid, no pump
Btw I'll be just running the camco 5500w element and a pid, no pump
What a given wire size can safely handle depends on the ambient temperature, the insulation type, whether the wires are bundled in a cable or are in a conduit whether the conductors are copper or aluminum and probably the flood stage of the Nile.
10AWG copper should be able to handle it, but I've always liked the added capacity of 8AWG so all of my 30A circuits get it.
As to your specific question about the packaging saying 20A, I would believe them. Assume that if their stuff causes a fire at 20.001A, they will blame you and so might your insurance company.
Aceandover
Active Member
Thanks guys why not just over build it, better safe then sorry.
augiedoggy
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Do you drive a Volvo?
Seriously though, cost and availability would be the main reasons... You dont see many commercial appliances built this way for the same reasons..
lets not forget that a 5500w element only draws about 23 amps in the real world. I use 12/3 SO wire from my panel to my 4500w elements because its rated for 20a and the most my amp meter ever shows is 18.6..(I use 10/3 wiring to my panel from the main breaker box because of the length and because I run a 1000w rims element simultaneously as one of my 4500w elements) .. Its only on at 100% for 30 minutes at the most while brewing...
Not need to be wasteful either since when rating electrical wire and components they always underrate for that "Better safe than sorry scenerio" If that 10 awg really states 20a only than its some sort of garbage wire or not truly 10 gauge... I used to see that in car audio, crazy marked up 4 awg wire that was really only 8awg once you got the crazy thick insulation off the wire... I dont know how they get away with it honestly. so I would assume that wire does not meet code period... then of cousre you have different ratings in different countries... in canada I'm pretty sure thier SO wire is only rated to 300v instead of 600V like ours... so the insulation might be different? Or just the politics behind it the rating system.
I also believe thats also one of the reasons SO wire which is not meant for permanent (in wall) wiring seems to often be rated for more amps than its single strand "permanent" counterparts unless I'm mistaken... its the whole continuous duty vs less than 3 hours argument... which everyone interprets differently here but from what I get out of it as long as your appliance does not draw the max current for more than 3 hours it is considered a non "continuous Duty" application.
As soon as the pid reached temp the amp load drops considerably and you would have to be heating a hell of a lot of liquid with a 5500w element for this to take more than 1 hour let alone 3.
It's not so much politics as economics. Remember that the NEC was originally promulgated by the insurance industry and they are still in it big time. If the overall reliability of a NEC compliant electrical installation is 99.9% then the expected payout is $1,000 per million insured. If the insurers can arrange things so that people use practices that get them another 9 then the payout is only $100 and they can make appreciably more money for the same premium. In deciding what to do one computes his own expected values. As the pain of having the house burn down is to me much more than its insured value I'll go for a couple extra 9's if it is at all feasible to do so.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I do think there are also politics involved... A steel hinged control panel box cost about $5 to make but a nema certified steel hinged panel box costs $200 to buy... I'm all for additional safety measures as long is there is actual merit... Going with 8 gauge wire for a 30a circuit isnt any safer that 10 gauge of the same brand if its rated for 30a.. Why because extensive and expensive testing and certifications tell us that the 10gauge is perfectly safe and capable of passing that amount of current and the properly sized breakers help enforce that... If you don't believe that then you don't believe in those certifations or testing to begin with right?
And most of your professionally wired homes and building which are wired with the minimum sized wire code allows also back that point up..(contractors do not like to waste money). If you want to go overboard that's cool, nothing wrong with that but to imply that someone is taking the chance of burning their house down by just meeting code and not using wire rated for higher amperage than they will pass through it is silly IMHO.
As politics seem to pervade everything these days I suppose that's true.
Bob, is that you?
This reminds me so much of a guy that used to work for me (Bob, if you haven't guessed). He'd argue loud and long for mild steel NEMA boxes instead of stainless because they were so much cheaper (and they were). Problem was that we put these on islands in the Gulf and the Indian ocean and after about 18 months the humidity, rain and salt spray would have eaten them up. I'd have to send someone over to swap them out which cost a good deal more than the $300 bucks for a stainless steel box which, AFAIK, are still out there. In this case it came down to pure economics.
Yes, actually it is. The 8 gauge has lower resistance per unit length, will thus, for any current, dissipate less heat and will, thus, in any cable, cable tray or conduit, experience less temperature rise. The probability of a fire will thus become lower and the expected costs may be lower. Now obviously you reach a point where the expected value of the loss is decreased for $0.01 to $ 0.001 and at that point you have over engineered (that would be my colleague Bill).
No, I don't believe that because it isn't true. Testing tells us that is is safe to 4 nines or 5 nines or something like that - I don't really know what the number is. This is far from perfectly safe. Despite the code electrical fires still happen. They represent very improbable events but very improbable events occur every day.
Electricians like to maximize profits just as the rest of us do. If an electrician thought he could convince the general contractor and the customer that he could decrease the expectational life cycle cost on a building by going to #8 instead of #10 he'd do it.
The point is that each should estimate his acceptable level of expected cost. If going to larger wire increases his expectational cost (wire and installation costs more than the expected savings from an extra 9 or two) then his path is clear. He would elect not to go to the larger wire size. If, OTOH, the enhanced safety reduces expectation costs by more than the cost of the larger wire then he would choose to use it. You should see how my colleague Bill (mentioned above) wired his house.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I would use the search option here and you will find threads with the answers you are looking for.
odorf
Guru of Nothing
10 gauge 2 wire with ground or/and 10 gauge 3 with ground
is perfectly safe to use for a 30 amp 220 service to a 5500 element.
if looking for some decent wire for your cooker..
http://www.amazon.com/Certified-Appliance-90-2028-4-wire-Dryer/dp/B0014KO11O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1447519211&sr=8-1&keywords=4+prong+30+amp+appliance+cord++10%27+long
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SW Ohio Keith
Spanker City Brewery
"To prevent a wire from getting too hot circuit breakers and fuses are used. These guys sense how much current is passing through a wire and if the current is greater than the fuse/breakers rating it will open up, essentially disconnecting the over drawn circuit from power. The size of the circuit breaker or fuse is determined by the size of wire attached to it. So if 14 AWG is used, nothing larger than a 15 Amps breaker/fuse can be used. If 10 AWG were used then anything up to and including a 30 Amp breaker/fuse may be used.
Breakers and fuses are meant to save property NOT LIFE! 1 Amp is more than enough to kill you."
This^^!!!!
If this doesn't make 100% sense to you, I suggest you buy and not build your controller. And as an edit, breakers and fuses are meant to save property from catching on fire, not to save your electronics!
Your equipment rating determines your wire size, and your wire size determines your fuse/breaker size.
Breakers and fuses are meant to save property NOT LIFE! 1 Amp is more than enough to kill you."
This^^!!!!
If this doesn't make 100% sense to you, I suggest you buy and not build your controller. And as an edit, breakers and fuses are meant to save property from catching on fire, not to save your electronics!
Your equipment rating determines your wire size, and your wire size determines your fuse/breaker size.
Another factor which may apply here is duty cycle. If the load is expected to persist for two hours or more it is considered a 'continuous load' and the circuit must be de-rated to 80% e.g. a circuit with a 50 A breaker and wire sized properly for 50 A connected to a 14-50R receptacle can only be used to supply 40 A of load.
jrdn
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Code doesn’t require GFCI on main feeding a sub panel, but is there a benefit to having a feeder 50a GFCI?
Also, I paid a “licensed electrician” and opened a junction box and saw he ripped a lot of the feeder wire sheathing. I didn’t see any inner wires in bad shape though. I asked him to look and he said it’s fine. I’ve been too scared to trust the sub panel installation so I’ve had the main breaker off.
Also, I paid a “licensed electrician” and opened a junction box and saw he ripped a lot of the feeder wire sheathing. I didn’t see any inner wires in bad shape though. I asked him to look and he said it’s fine. I’ve been too scared to trust the sub panel installation so I’ve had the main breaker off.
carnageasada
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Extremely late to this game, but a great write up and I'm honing in on this statement in considering my new setup:
"Example: An element rated for 5500 Watts at 240 Volts used at 120 Volts has an actual Wattage rating of 1375 Watts. To determine the current draw, divide 1375 Watts/ 120 Volts = 11.46 Amps."
I have the same spec'ed (Dernord) element as above and will be using it to boil and a pinch hit "gentle" heating element during fermentation as necessary, since it will be in the vessel anyway.
I have a request for a sanity check here - by gentle I mean I do NOT need it to pull at 1375W while plugged into 120V, but since a heating element is a simple resistor in theory (in this case R = constant), if I'm not planning on any additional electronics other than a servo-type controller (i.e. InkBird 308 or similar) for fermentation, the fact that the mentioned controller can only drive 1100W, means that it's a no-go, correct? I'd need something rated for > 1375W right out of the gate less I trip the GFCI at the outlet due to the element trying to pull too much out of the 120V outlet...?
Thanks in advance for any informed advise!
"Example: An element rated for 5500 Watts at 240 Volts used at 120 Volts has an actual Wattage rating of 1375 Watts. To determine the current draw, divide 1375 Watts/ 120 Volts = 11.46 Amps."
I have the same spec'ed (Dernord) element as above and will be using it to boil and a pinch hit "gentle" heating element during fermentation as necessary, since it will be in the vessel anyway.
I have a request for a sanity check here - by gentle I mean I do NOT need it to pull at 1375W while plugged into 120V, but since a heating element is a simple resistor in theory (in this case R = constant), if I'm not planning on any additional electronics other than a servo-type controller (i.e. InkBird 308 or similar) for fermentation, the fact that the mentioned controller can only drive 1100W, means that it's a no-go, correct? I'd need something rated for > 1375W right out of the gate less I trip the GFCI at the outlet due to the element trying to pull too much out of the 120V outlet...?
Thanks in advance for any informed advise!
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The InkBird ITC-308 is not a "servo" controller, but rather a simple on-off controller, using mechanical relays for controlling power. The combination of a 1375W element with this controller is totally unsuitable for fermentation temperature control. Also, when it is calling for power, the element will draw the full 1375W (if the line voltage is actually 120), and this is more than the rating of the output relays. This combination will almost certainly result in excessive temp overshoots in the fermenter, since you will overheat before the controller can detect the overheat (due to time delays, and temp gradients within the fermenting beer.)
I use a 308 to control my chest freezer fermentation chamber, and it only has about 30W of heating capacity (from heat mats.)
Brew on
carnageasada
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Thanks you Doug, this is exactly what I concluded and even though the Inkbird would more than handle the pump for cold-control, it's insufficient for heating in this config, which is ok, Inkbird actually has a 1800W option:
https://inkbird.com/products/temperature-and-humidity-controller-itc-608t
That will work and also thanks for the correction, it's only a switching unit much like the 308. I also would give up wifi, but I'm cool with that, but will nab a dinky 40-80W heater and stick with the 308 maybe... I honestly wonder if I'll need heating, but I may need to move stuff to the garage and seasons shall stop no brewer!
Brew on as well...
https://inkbird.com/products/temperature-and-humidity-controller-itc-608t
That will work and also thanks for the correction, it's only a switching unit much like the 308. I also would give up wifi, but I'm cool with that, but will nab a dinky 40-80W heater and stick with the 308 maybe... I honestly wonder if I'll need heating, but I may need to move stuff to the garage and seasons shall stop no brewer!
Brew on as well...
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I wouldn't consider 1375w gentle heating for fermentation. When you use a controller like either of the inkbirds you're talking about, the minimum hysteresis is 1F. By the time your temp probe is satisfied, much more heat will have been put into the system so you'll see at least a few degrees of oscillation.
A couple ideas.... You could add an SSVR type control inline that will limit the element's power even more. Another option would be to just use something like the Blichmann Brew Commander which would allow you to dial in a max power of something like 3%, which even if you left it on 240V would only be 165 watts.
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Seconding Doug here, use the ITC-308 with something like a 30W reptile heating pad for the fermenter temperature control. The Inkbird has contacts rated for 10A only and you will arc the contacts, wear the relays out and probably weld the contacts together at some point.
Using a boil element for fermentation control is almost a guarantee to kill your yeasties off. The heat density will raise the wort to near-boiling within an inch of the element surface rapidly and depending where your probe is, likely raise the core temperature of the wort to at least 70°C before the probe registers it needs to shut off. The 30W to 40W heater pads are much gentler.
Using a boil element for fermentation control is almost a guarantee to kill your yeasties off. The heat density will raise the wort to near-boiling within an inch of the element surface rapidly and depending where your probe is, likely raise the core temperature of the wort to at least 70°C before the probe registers it needs to shut off. The 30W to 40W heater pads are much gentler.
carnageasada
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Thanks all, verified all paths I was following, really appreciate it!
I guess a "gentle" heat with such friendly organisms is required - 40W is probably better than say, the 80W option of a wrap due to the InkBird's reaction time...?
I guess a "gentle" heat with such friendly organisms is required - 40W is probably better than say, the 80W option of a wrap due to the InkBird's reaction time...?
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