internal component spacing

Hi all,

I just received a UniBrau mini 11-gallon dual 1500w element BIAB setup but am building my own controller. I am getting close to pulling the trigger on an order to build a controller similar to the diagram here but with a few small changes. The biggest difference is that I want the option to have power input and control output from the DSPR1 to switch between the option shown here where it alternates with the primary PID and an external box consisting only of a separate power connection and SSR. This would be used to control a second element. So during times when both elements are in use, the PID is controlling one and the DSPR1 is controlling the other through the aux SSR, but when just one element is in use I have the option of PID or manual through the same SSR with a quick toggle. Yes, I'm aware this is a bit overkill but since when is that a bad thing?

I've attached a diagram of the front faceplate for this setup planning on the deluxe 1/16 enclosure (Pbox-16D) from Auber. Dimensions of this plate are 150mm x 80mm. Does this look too crowded? How much heat do the PID units give off? Will cutting out that much of the panel make it too flimsy? Just so it's clear, the center toggle only needs the cutout hole in the center. The square is the switch body that will be behind the panel, crowding the control units a bit.

Thanks in advance for any tips. And thanks to all the electric brewers for being a great resource for a whole new reason to geek out on this hobby!

View attachment panel-front-labels.bmp

Okay, I'm not going to get offended at 143 views and no replies. In an effort to provide better information or beat this into the ground, I modified a PJ Diagram to illustrate what I am trying to do. My lack of MS paint skill certainly shows here, especially around the 4P2T switch, so I hope it's clear. Would appreciate a check on my plan. Or just more views with no replies, that works too

Just came here to have a quick look at your thread, but now I feel obliged to answer even though I don't really have much substantial to offer.
It looks fine to me and I'd be surprised if the panel would turn out to be too flimsy.
Just make sure everything fits inside before cutting. I've personally been too optimistic sometimes about how close to the side of an enclosure you can fit stuff. I don't think the PID's will put out much heat. The SSR's can get varm though, depening on quality and how much power they need to handle.

Edit: Haven't looked at the wiring diagram, because that seems like homework and I'm lazy, but I believe in you, so I'm sure it's fine

I only took a brief glance so take it FWIW. What is the purpose of the last 2 poles of the 4P2T switch? It appears to just be taking the power regulator and moving it from Power 1 to Power 2? *Edit* Oh i think i understand now after reading again? Your going to use both of them together for 1 element, but if your using two elements your wanting it on another line? Not sure it really pulls that much power it matters?

Im going through wiring my own project now, so forgive me if im wrong i very well could be... but my only concern would be wiring both Hot and neutral into a switch. In theory there are scenarios where the switch could get energized? and having no connection to ground as soon as you touched it..zap. You should try to only switch your neutral line, and hard wire in your hot to your DSPR1. So it turns on when you switch in the neutral wire,

Just to confirm, your diagram is a "one or both" setup, not a "one or the other" setup, correct? Because line 1 is always live, and the switches basically only control whether line 2 is ALSO running in parallel.

Edit: Wait, no. I'm still deciphering the diagram. Stand by...

Okay, I also don't like the last two poles that power the DSPR1. You're cutting one power supply line and switching it to another. That's going to be hard on the controller.

That aside, am I correct in seeing that you want to have either just the SYL controlling one element, or both elements controlled by the DSPR1, and that's what you're switching between?

And I'm not familiar with the pin diagram of the DSPR1, but should the purple (-) line be on pin 8 instead of 6?

What I would do is power the PIDs on the same circuit so they're on when the panel is on, none of that only switching the DSPR1 on when you want it on. The switching between the SYL and the DSPR1+SYL DC voltage lines is okay, just ditch the other two positions. The DSPR1 will always be firing, so maybe better yet would be to have a 3-way switch that switches the DC signals from the SYL to the DSPR1 circuits. You'd have to put the switch between the DSPR1 and the node that branches to the two SSRs so one isn't always on.

When would you not be using both elements?

Bobby_M said:

When would you not be using both elements?

Click to expand...

Good question. Why not just control them both from your favorite controller of the two? You might still want the 2nd element powered from a separate circuit for current draw reasons, but everything else can pull from the 1st circuit.

You could even keep both controllers but switch between the PID and the DSPR1 (which is not a PID, to be correct). They'd both be sending signals all the time, but you'd switch between which one actually reaches the SSRs. I almost did that on my panel because I like having a knob for boil control, but I ditched the idea for simplicity and space issues. The PID has manual control, right?

Leave it to Bobby to ask the smart questions.

FuzzeWuzze said:

Im going through wiring my own project now, so forgive me if im wrong i very well could be... but my only concern would be wiring both Hot and neutral into a switch. In theory there are scenarios where the switch could get energized? and having no connection to ground as soon as you touched it..zap. You should try to only switch your neutral line, and hard wire in your hot to your DSPR1. So it turns on when you switch in the neutral wire,

Click to expand...

In the USA, the National Electrical Code (NEC) forbids switching the neutral line alone. If you want to control power with a single pole switch, the NEC requires that you switch the hot line, not the neutral line. It is allowable to switch both hot and neutral with a double pole switch, but not two single pole switches.

Brew on

doug293cz said:

In the USA, the National Electrical Code (NEC) forbids switching the neutral line alone. If you want to control power with a single pole switch, the NEC requires that you switch the hot line, not the neutral line. It is allowable to switch both hot and neutral with a double pole switch, but not two single pole switches.

Brew on

Click to expand...

Yea the more i thought about it in theory if the hot and neutral somehow contacted the casing it would short out? Not energize the casing/switch.

All good questions, I'll try to explain my intent. My understanding is that for a typical 5-gallon batch I will only need one 1500w element to maintain mash and boil temps, but will need the second to quickly ramp temps. So my brew day would look like this:

Heat strike water - PID to set temp controlling element #1, supplemental heat provided by DSPR1 controlling 2nd element.
Maintain mash temp - PID controlling element #1, no power to DSPR1 or element #2
Ramp to boil temp - PID to set temp controlling element #1, supplemental heat provided by DSPR1 controlling 2nd element
Boil - Manual control over element #1 with DSPR1

But now you've got me thinking that I should allow control of both elements via the PID to allow the temp to be hit automatically, and just use the DSPR1 for boil, whether it be one or both elements. Is there advantage to spreading load of maintaining temps across two burners rather than one? For my setup, this will likely require running an extension cord to a 2nd circuit, so my initial thinking was to limit the amount of time I would be in that condition. But I suppose if I have to do that for any amount of time, it would be ok to keep it that way for the entire brew session if there is an advantage.

And that brings up the safety items missing from my diagram that, politely, no one mentioned, other than the concern of a shorting switch. The controller will be grounded, appropriately fused, and the correct gauge of wire used for the service amperage. My elements are actually 1500w, as I'm limited to 15amp circuits.

Oh and the rationale for switching power supplies to the DSPR1 is a visual cue. If the DSPR1 is on, it is supplying power to the rig from one element or the other. I'm trying to take care of all of the thinking beforehand, so that I can focus on other tasks during the brew day. Is it really a problem to switch power to the unit? As I've outlined, it will be 2-4 times per brew that it is switched.

Doug, thanks for chiming in with the NEC backup. I knew that instinct was coming from somewhere...

2bluewagons said:

My understanding is that for a typical 5-gallon batch I will only need one 1500w element to maintain mash and boil temps, but will need the second to quickly ramp temps.

Click to expand...

I've also got a Brau Supply system with 2x1500. You'll need both elements to get a good boil for a 5 gallon batch. My boils typically start with about 7.25-7.5 gallons, 6 gallons to the fermenter. One 1500 watt element just won't cut it. I've tried.

However, you don't need to run both full tilt.

I boil 7 gallons with a 5500 watt element set at 62% so you definitely want to use both elements all the time. Besides, with the use of the DPSR, you have the ability to turn the duel elements into whatever wattage you want.

Here's what I suggest. Run a single PID and a DPSR and use four SSRs or two dual channel SSRs. SSRs 1A and 1B are wired in series to element 1 and SSRs 2A and 2B are wired in series and connected to element 2. The PID drives SSRs 1A and 2A and the DPSR drives SSRs 1B and 2B.


Why? You can dial in the element wattage at any moment whether you want it running in PID or manual mode. To run in manual mode, just set the PID to a setpoint well above boiling like 250F. Now you can dial in the boil intensity with the DPSR. If you want to run 1500 watts max for mashing, just set the DPSR to 50% and let the PID run to your setpoint. Maybe you'll find you can keep the temp fine set to 30% or less. In a perfect world you'd set the DPSR to the lowest output that will still hold your mash temp, perhaps where the PID is cycling on like 90% of the time.

Bobby, thanks for the idea. At first I thought you were pulling my leg, trying to further complicate what should be a relatively simple setup. I do see the ability to control everything tightly in such a setup, but don't think I'll go that route. Thanks for all the advice, I'll just stick to switching control of both elements between the PID and DSPR1 in a single enclosure.

If you really want simple, why not just use a single PID that has a manual mode and do away with DSPR1 altogether? You'd still need two SSRs.

Bobby_M said:

If you really want simple, why not just use a single PID that has a manual mode and do away with DSPR1 altogether? You'd still need two SSRs.

Click to expand...

How about one PID (w/manual as Bobby M suggests), one SSR and a selector switch (DPST?) that allows element 2 to be selectively turned on and off with element one on all the time?

With a manual mode there really is no reason to run one element vs both. In fact running both elements at 50% is hands down better than 1 element at 100% as the watt density should be as low as you can get it. Sure one 1500 element is enough for RIMS maintain temp but 3000 is not a problem either because it will just be on for a shorter pulse controlled by the PID. During boil you will need more than 1500 at all times.

Thanks for all the suggestions folks, it really helped steer my build in the direction of what I want, or at least what I think I want having never brewed electric before! Here's my final schematic and I'm halfway done placing all the components in the enclosure and expect to wire it up soon. I'll post back with pics of the final build once I'm done to close this out.

Cheers

2bluewagons said:

Thanks for all the suggestions folks, it really helped steer my build in the direction of what I want, or at least what I think I want having never brewed electric before! Here's my final schematic and I'm halfway done placing all the components in the enclosure and expect to wire it up soon. I'll post back with pics of the final build once I'm done to close this out.

Cheers

Click to expand...

Do you really have two pumps? If so, fusing one of them with a 1A fast blow probably isn't going to work.

Brew on

doug293cz said:

Do you really have two pumps? If so, fusing one of them with a 1A fast blow probably isn't going to work.

Brew on

Click to expand...

You don't think so? Thanks for the catch. Just one pump, I've fixed the diagram. 1A should be fine to protect both control units though correct?

2bluewagons said:

You don't think so? Thanks for the catch. Just one pump, I've fixed the diagram. 1A should be fine to protect both control units though correct?

Click to expand...

Yes, the control units are less than 5W each, so total draw will be less than 100 mA.

Brew on

As promised and just to toot my own horn a bit, here are some pictures of the completed build in action during my first brew with it yesterday. No pictures of the internal wiring because A) it looks like a rat's nest and B) with the connections I soldered and way the enclosure goes together it has to be half closed to finalize all wiring, preventing useful pictures.

I stuck to the most recent wiring diagram I posted and it was very useful to have that on hand so I didn't have to think too hard while connecting everything.

Here are some seemingly obvious items that didn't occur to me prior to getting into this:

-Don't use solid wire. Seriously, what was I thinking? I mean other than trying to use the gobs of 14awg 3-1 romex I had on-hand? So stiff and really hard to solder. The heat migrates very well up that wire and my soldering iron couldn't keep up. Luckily this was just for the main inputs and element power line connections.

-Check switch polarity/connections before wiring them in. They might be opposite what seems logical, to me at least.

-The NEMA 15A male and female receptacles are nice and clean, allowing me to disconnect all trailing wires from the controller for simple cleanup and storage, but the enclosure plate is a little too thick for them to seat firmly. I have to hold them in when disconnecting plugs, but they hold while in use just fine.

-My crappy hole-cutting job didn't help the fit of components either. I spent my time on the front but was rushed when doing the back. It shows.

As far as level of satisfaction at switching to electric, even after a rocky brew day, this is a great change and will be difficult to justify going back to propane even after my living situation changes. Very easy to change operations or just set it the temp SP with or without timer/alarm and walk away knowing that all will be fine until I get back. Most of my problems yesterday had more to do with the other new (to me) items including no-sparge BIAB and the Brau Supply system in general. But I digress, that's a separate topic.

Thanks to everyone for all the help in this thread and numerous others I read in preparing to take this on.

Cheers!