Sour Brews

Hello, I wanted to try brewing herb brews instead of using hops, but they were coming out sour, I thought the herbs were making my brews sour.

So I just did an experiment 3 gallons of wort divided into 3 one gallon batches then each was boiled for 60 min, 1st batch had herbs in it, 2nd batch had hops in it, 3rd batch had nothing in it, just straight wort.

I sanitized everything then after the boil I transferred to 3 separate fermenters, I aerated each and added 1/3 of a single pack of yeast using different spoons in each batch, then controlled fermenting temps for 3 weeks.

Today I bottled them and sampled each, all 3 are sour, same taste in all 3, their is no sign of infection what so ever in any of these brews, but Im pretty sure all my brewing equipment is infected.

I think my wife and I (through a lengthy discussion) have figured out what caused this sourness in every brew, the first herb brew I attempted I also used a liquid saison yeast # 3724, it was shipped in a freezer pack, after traveling for 3 days it sat in a UPS truck for 2 1/2 more days at 110 deg, who knows how hot it was in this truck during that time.

A word of warning to all, if your cold pack is hot when it gets to your door, I would think twice about using that yeast.

BTW the Sour Saison makes a good shandy with tonic water.

I hope this post saves others the time and frustration I have been through.

Any comments or questions are welcome.

Cheers

A yeast pack shipped hot will have reduced viability, but it most likely won't mutate into a lacto or other acid producing creature. And if that were possible, there's no way 2 packs would do the same thing. There's must be another factor involved.

high temps should not cause "mutations" in yeast cells
people on here can vouch that they rehydrate with 100-110 water so i dont think thats your problem

i think your unfamiler with this strain of yeast. this is from wyeasts website...

This strain is the classic farmhouse ale yeast. A traditional yeast that is spicy with complex aromatics, including bubble gum. It is very tart and dry on the palate with a mild fruitiness. Expect a crisp, mildly acidic finish that will benefit from elevated fermentation temperatures

make sure you know what strain your brewing with before you use it and know what to expect i would think what your tasting is normal for this strain of yeast

Just my .02

Johnnyhitch1 said:

high temps should not cause "mutations" in yeast cells
people on here can vouch that they rehydrate with 100-110 water so i dont think thats your problem

i think your unfamiler with this strain of yeast. this is from wyeasts website...

This strain is the classic farmhouse ale yeast. A traditional yeast that is spicy with complex aromatics, including bubble gum. It is very tart and dry on the palate with a mild fruitiness. Expect a crisp, mildly acidic finish that will benefit from elevated fermentation temperatures

make sure you know what strain your brewing with before you use it and know what to expect i would think what your tasting is normal for this strain of yeast

Just my .02

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I would agree with you, but and theres always a but, lol I have 2 batches of brew using 05 yeast that have that same sour flavor that the saison have, both brewed after the saison one with hops and one with herbs, thats why I did the test.

it all comes back to that same batch of brew, It is very common for it to get to 150+ in a car here in Arizona, that temp for 2 + days ? kinda extreme for any yeast I would think.

Or I just got an infection some how, and I have tried saison brews before I brewed this one, there one of those brews that the more I have them the more I seem to like them.

I should have given more information on my OP

Cheers

All these brews taste like fresh squeezed very sour lemon-aid.

Anyone have this flavor outcome on any of your brews?

Thanks

You have an infection somewhere amongst your gear. I guarantee it was not due to high temps of the yeast. The introduction just coincided with that batch apparently. Need to go back through your sanitation process and see what you're missing.

Quaker said:

You have an infection somewhere amongst your gear. I guarantee it was not due to high temps of the yeast. The introduction just coincided with that batch apparently. Need to go back through your sanitation process and see what you're missing.

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Hello, I agree that I have an infection, will nuking everything with bleach kill this off? or should I just order all new equipment?

I guess I could just order another groupon kit from midwest since thats how the majority of my equipment was acquired to begin with?

Thanks

I imagine there is something else going on. Beers usually do not sour that fast, whether they are intentionally soured or infected.

What's your water source? Are you brewing from kits? If so, what kits? If not, what are your recipes? What are you cleaning with? What are you sanitizing with? What is your brew process? How do you cool wort?

If you have an infection, I'd throw out all soft plastics and nuke the rest of your equipment with a PBW/Bleach/Iodophor/StarSan combo in series (not at the same time unless you have a death wish). It doesn't necessarily sound like an infection though - the only candidate I can think of is lactobacillus, and most strains absolutely can't stand hops.
Beers don't turn sour very quickly unless you do a sour mash, and that's a very deliberate process - boiled wort can sit in a sealed and sanitized container for days without yeast activity and still be fine. And all souring infections have telltale visible signs. I suspect that it is a process error. Start by answering ReverseApacheMaster's question, and elaborate on each step as necessary.

WileECoyote said:

I
it all comes back to that same batch of brew, It is very common for it to get to 150+ in a car here in Arizona, that temp for 2 + days ? kinda extreme for any yeast I would think.

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As it has been said before, heat does not MUTATE yeast cells into different species of yeast cells. Does it kill yeast? (aka reduce viability) Yes. Does it turn Sacc into Lacto or Pedio?? Absolutely not.

You problem is in you process/equipment, not your mostly dead yeast.

ReverseApacheMaster said:

Beers usually do not sour that fast, whether they are intentionally soured or infected.

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Good point. To already be sour at bottling time would be a truly aggressive bug. Does the wort taste fine before pitching yeast?

Quaker said:

Good point. To already be sour at bottling time would be a truly aggressive bug. Does the wort taste fine before pitching yeast?

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+1, are these well aged brews? How long in from fermentation to bottling typically, are you milling your grain in a seperate area than you are cooling/fermenting/bottling in?

Quaker said:

Good point. To already be sour at bottling time would be a truly aggressive bug. Does the wort taste fine before pitching yeast?

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Yes wort taste great before pitching yeast

COLObrewer said:

+1, are these well aged brews? How long in from fermentation to bottling typically, are you milling your grain in a seperate area than you are cooling/fermenting/bottling in?

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Im milling my own grain with a beer bottle rolling it on a cooke sheet pan in the kitchen, the brews are fermenting in a bed room.
Each 1 gal test brew was at 3 weeks primary only, all 3 very sour after 3 weeks.

WileECoyote said:

Im milling my own grain with a beer bottle rolling it on a cooke sheet pan in the kitchen, the brews are fermenting in a bed room.
Each 1 gal test brew was at 3 weeks primary only, all 3 very sour after 3 weeks.

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Are these all grain batches? Extract? What is your water source? Fermentation temperature? Taking gravity readings?

ReverseApacheMaster said:

I imagine there is something else going on. Beers usually do not sour that fast, whether they are intentionally soured or infected.

What's your water source? Are you brewing from kits? If so, what kits? If not, what are your recipes? What are you cleaning with? What are you sanitizing with? What is your brew process? How do you cool wort?

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Water is from a water dispensing machine at the store, it filters, charcoal filters, UV rays it, twice each step, this is the same water I have used every batch that I have made to date, the first 3 batches taste just fine.

Some brews were kits IRA, cream stout both from midwest both were not sour, some were recipes from this forum, NTOLERANCE amber/wheat recipe 1 time this was not sour the second time it was sour, Honey wheat recipe (I used the saison yeast on this) cant remember who's recipe and 3 times this was sour, and some were just a simple wheat extract brew and 2 times this was sour, in-fact so sour I dumped one out.

Im cleaning with hot, semi soapy water and a wash cloth so as not to scratch any plastic parts, I do not have any carboys, I only have buckets to ferment in.

Im using a product called Sani-t-10 that I can get locally at a restaurant supply store, I sanitize everything first, even if its going into the boil, and I rinse then sanitize everything during use.

brew process is I crush grains with a bottle and a cooke sheet, steep grains at 155 for 30 min, add DME to the boil for 60 min, even tried 1/2 DME additions 1 @ 60 and 1 @ 15 min, add hops at 60, 30, 10. or steep herbs for 3 min then add herbs to cooled wort @ 80 deg, or no additions at all, (3 batch experiment).

I aerate wort after cooling, by poring wort into fermenting bucket, then with a big spoon pushing it under and letting bubbles come up through the wort, I pitch yeast then aerate some more with spoon.

I cool my wort with ice cold water from same machine and ice made with water from same machine, added to the wort, I got this technique from my first kits from midwest, instructions said if doing a partial boil you can add ice and ice cold water to cool the word down and bring volume up to 5 gal.

first 3 brews were not sour at all, and now every brew is very sour in 3 weeks in primary, or I have tried doing 2 weeks primary and 2 weeks secondary too,

I taste all my hydrometer samples and the brews I transferred to secondary at 2 weeks were already sour at 2 weeks old.

I think it has to be some kind of infection, different recipes with different yeast strains all being brewed the same way, and all tasting very sour in two to three weeks, all except the first 3 batches that I made.

I like the sour saison mixed with tonic water, so all is not a total loss,

Im thinking about bleach nuking everything, then brewing another saison, that way if the sourness is still there I can still drink it with tonic and have no wasted brew

hope I gave enough information
Cheers

ReverseApacheMaster said:

Are these all grain batches? Extract? What is your water source? Fermentation temperature? Taking gravity readings?

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Extract batches only so far.
Water is from a machine outside of market, it dose the UV thing and carbon filters, same water for every batch including the first 3 that didn't sour. Fermentation temps are kept well within yeast manufactures specs.
Yes Im taking gravity readings on my brews, along with temp at gravity readings, and they have been close to hitting the recommended OG and FGs per brew style, and I am taking notes on every brew marking down every gravity/temp I take too.
I could go through my log book and type for hrs every recipe with every gravity/temp reading, but I type like a snail runs, so this would take me for ever.
I did NTOLERANCES amber/wheat recipe twice followed his cooking instructions to the letter on both batches, 1st time was great beer (a bit to much coriander for me), 2nd time was sour as hell (only alteration was 1/2 less coriander)
2 weeks primary, 2 weeks secondary on both batches, hydrometer readings at 2 weeks on both, almost the same readings for both batches, tasted both samples, 2nd batch was sour after two weeks.

Im going to nuke everything and then try another saison, this way if it is sour I can still drink it with tonic water, if its not sour I will end up with a great brew and get to keep my brewing equipment, its kinda a win win.

Cheers

I am not familiar with the restaurant sanitizer, but I would definitely go with StarSan or Saniclean for sanitizing and a oxygen-based cleaner like B-Brite, oxiclean versatile free or PBW - tried and proven products for brewing. I would throw away your buckets and tubing and replace everything made out of soft plastic if the problem keeps reoccurring. I would also boil the water coming out of the RO machine before use on the cold side. They may sterile filter the water inside of the machine, but who know what it growing on the dispensing nozzle...
If it is indeed an infection, it's probably a very agressive lactobacillus strain, like lactobacillus brevis. There are few other organisms that produce a very clean acidic character so quickly.

Are you rinsing off the sanitizer? Are you diluting it before use?

My bet is your sanitizer is giving you an off flavor that you perceive as sour. If you are that diligent about sanitizing and using a quat-based sanitizer like that, you should have no infections, certainly not a reoccurring infection. However quat sanitizers are ammonia-based and are not good for consumption in general and are not good for your beer. It's supposed to be rinsed after drying so if you're not rinsing and/or using too strong of a solution then you're getting some byproduct from the sanitizer. Alternatively, I guess if you are rinsing you are adding non-sterile water back in and reintroducing bacteria. Personally I would start by switching to iodophor or starsan as a sanitizer before spraying chlorine all over your equipment.

ArcaneXor said:

I am not familiar with the restaurant sanitizer, but I would definitely go with StarSan or Saniclean for sanitizing and a oxygen-based cleaner like B-Brite, oxiclean versatile free or PBW - tried and proven products for brewing. I would throw away your buckets and tubing and replace everything made out of soft plastic if the problem keeps reoccurring. I would also boil the water coming out of the RO machine before use on the cold side. They may sterile filter the water inside of the machine, but who know what it growing on the dispensing nozzle...
If it is indeed an infection, it's probably a very agressive lactobacillus strain, like lactobacillus brevis. There are few other organisms that produce a very clean acidic character so quickly.

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Thank You ArcaneXor, your post is very informative, I will definitely be ordering up some new sanitizer, as I started using this sanitizer on my 4th batch (the 1st sour batch) I also have oxiclean but I have only been using it to remove labels from the store bought brew bottles.

I take it that I should use the oxiclean to wash everything after each time brewing, and sanitize everything as usual, how long should i leave everything in the oxiclean?

I will also be researching on lactobacillus brevis

Thanks Again
Cheers

ReverseApacheMaster said:

Are you rinsing off the sanitizer? Are you diluting it before use?

My bet is your sanitizer is giving you an off flavor that you perceive as sour. If you are that diligent about sanitizing and using a quat-based sanitizer like that, you should have no infections, certainly not a reoccurring infection. However quat sanitizers are ammonia-based and are not good for consumption in general and are not good for your beer. It's supposed to be rinsed after drying so if you're not rinsing and/or using too strong of a solution then you're getting some byproduct from the sanitizer. Alternatively, I guess if you are rinsing you are adding non-sterile water back in and reintroducing bacteria. Personally I would start by switching to iodophor or starsan as a sanitizer before spraying chlorine all over your equipment.

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Thanks R.A.M., Its a no rinse sanitizer, but I have been rinsing it off anyway, I agree that any residue left behind isn't good for my brews

I don't think that this is an off flavor, its a full blown very sour lemon flavor, taste exactly like very sour lemon-aid in beer.

Im going to take your recommendation and get some starsan and try it.

Thanks Again
Cheers

Starsan is great and very easy to use. Also get some spray bottles to keep sanitizer in so you can spot sanitize anything and everything.

danielc409 said:

Starsan is great and very easy to use. Also get some spray bottles to keep sanitizer in so you can spot sanitize anything and everything.

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Hello, I keep a 5 gal bucket of sanitizer handy when Im brewing, I rinse then toss item into the bucket, but I like the idea of a spray bottle, Im going to try it.

Thanks
Cheers

CHECK YOUR:

tubing and faucets... I have found caked on yeast inside my faucets and I Oxyclean them, hot rinse and then Starsan them.


When using Oxyclean use cool water for the cleaning and hot water to rinse.
(You don't have to but) when I use StarSan I also use hot water to make sure no Oxyclean residue is on my equipment.

I clean all my keg and fermentors using the water from the wort chiller of another batch (I hate to waste all that water.)

I have some of the "old" scoops that Oxyclean came woth and I add one scoop for a 5 gallon bucket and let it soak sometime over night.

Then I rinse it and put it away... it is clean,,, I do a minor cleaning when I pull it back out and then sanitize with Starsan.

DPB

WileECoyote said:

Thanks R.A.M., Its a no rinse sanitizer, but I have been rinsing it off anyway, I agree that any residue left behind isn't good for my brews

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Rinsing a no rinse sanitizer? With what? Unsanitized water?

Get a proper no-rinse sanitizer (StarSan) and you'll be fine.

DPBISME said:

CHECK YOUR:

tubing and faucets... I have found caked on yeast inside my faucets and I Oxyclean them, hot rinse and then Starsan them.


When using Oxyclean use cool water for the cleaning and hot water to rinse.
(You don't have to but) when I use StarSan I also use hot water to make sure no Oxyclean residue is on my equipment.

I clean all my keg and fermentors using the water from the wort chiller of another batch (I hate to waste all that water.)

I have some of the "old" scoops that Oxyclean came woth and I add one scoop for a 5 gallon bucket and let it soak sometime over night.

Then I rinse it and put it away... it is clean,,, I do a minor cleaning when I pull it back out and then sanitize with Starsan.

DPB

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Thanks for the advice, much appreciated.
Oxyclean / Starsan combo sounds like a much better way to go than a bleach nuking.

Cheers

AmandaK said:

Rinsing a no rinse sanitizer? With what? Unsanitized water?

Get a proper no-rinse sanitizer (StarSan) and you'll be fine.

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Ordering some today.

Cheers

WileECoyote said:

Thanks for the advice, much appreciated.
Oxyclean / Starsan combo sounds like a much better way to go than a bleach nuking.

Cheers

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You will screw up...

I have at least 3 peices of clothing "burned" by bleach.

You will not have those problems with StarSan.

Buy at least a 16 oz... (I can do about 24 batches with that much and it is much more cost effective)

You might when first start using it alway whip up a 5 gallon batch but if you stuff is clean a 2.5 gallion batch is fine...

With 2.5 gallons you can sanitize until your heart is content.

BUT REMEMBER::::::

Only cleaned and rinsed items ever touch your Star-San... when you are all done for the day it will still be good if you want to brew the next day also...

OR

Sanitize the stuff you cleaned, dry it and put it away... (you can never be to clean...

Update, I really want to see if I can kill this infection off so I bleach soaked everything for at least 3 hrs, with 1 cup of bleach per 10 gal of water and also added 1 big scoop of oxiclean to the mix, then several very hot water rinse's, then dried with a towel that was washed in bleach, then bagged up, next Im going to soak in Star San, Im thinking maybe 12 hrs or longer, is 12 hrs overkill in Star San ?

Tomorrow I will be brewing a saison test batch and fermenting it in one of my buckets to see if the bleach/Star San combo worked to kill this infection, if not I can still use this brew as a shandy with tonic water and order all new plastic's, so there really isn't any wasted beer, and if it dose work the pipeline will start up again, Brewing makes me feel like a cross between a kid again and a crazy scientist, cant wait till tomorrow Im so excited. Muhahahaha

Ill let you all know if it worked in 2 or 3 weeks.

Cheers

12 hours is pretty overkill. Yeah. Per this post, any StarSan mixture with a pH under 3 is suitable for sanitization. StarSan tech sheets suggest a 3 minute exposure. I've read that it should be able to take care of most microflora in a matter of seconds.

I mix up 5 gallons on brewday with 1 oz of StarSan. Everything (absolutely everything) that touches beer post-boil is first cleaned of all debris, and then soaked in StarSan for at least a minute. Nothing is ever rinsed after StarSan exposure. Do not rinse your no-rinse sanitizer. I brew clean beers and also use Brett in my home brewery, with no infections to speak of, to date.

Be clean, be clean again, santize everything, and don't fear the foam.

I usually put the StarSan in a Home Depot bucket with a cap and keep it for several weeks. I usually discard the StarSan mixture after I have bottled a batch if there is significant debris in the mix. I've tested my StarSan's pH and it has retained pH at 2.10 after 4 weeks following this procedure.

Make sure that bleach mix is really well rinsed. Even a small amount of bleach left behind will create chlorophenols in your beer, which tastes like nasty medicine.

WileECoyote said:

I bleach soaked everything for at least 3 hrs, with 1 cup of bleach per 10 gal of water and also added 1 big scoop of oxiclean to the mix

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I think I would use these one at a time - maybe the oxyclean first to remove any crud and then a good bleach soak to sanitize. I'm sure someone who knows more about chemistry than me can speak to whether mixing the two products is a good idea or not, but I tend to err on the side of caution with these things!

berebrando said:

12 hours is pretty overkill. Yeah. Per this post, any StarSan mixture with a pH under 3 is suitable for sanitization. StarSan tech sheets suggest a 3 minute exposure. I've read that it should be able to take care of most microflora in a matter of seconds.

I mix up 5 gallons on brewday with 1 oz of StarSan. Everything (absolutely everything) that touches beer post-boil is first cleaned of all debris, and then soaked in StarSan for at least a minute. Nothing is ever rinsed after StarSan exposure. Do not rinse your no-rinse sanitizer. I brew clean beers and also use Brett in my home brewery, with no infections to speak of, to date.

Be clean, be clean again, santize everything, and don't fear the foam.

I usually put the StarSan in a Home Depot bucket with a cap and keep it for several weeks. I usually discard the StarSan mixture after I have bottled a batch if there is significant debris in the mix. I've tested my StarSan's pH and it has retained pH at 2.10 after 4 weeks following this procedure.

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I will not be rinsing the StarSan and thanks for the info, Ill just do a 1 hr soak tonight and a 5 min tomorrow when brewing.

Cheers

Update, well sad news for me, I don't think the bleach bomb, star san combo got the infection, last weekend I brewed a new batch, at 4 days in primary it tasted a bit green but good, today day 8 its pretty sour, the same infected sour as before, looks like all new plastics now, I was so bummed I was really hoping that I could save about $150.00 worth of plastic items and get my pipeline going again.

Time to start over I guess

Cheers

I-Train said:

I think I would use these one at a time - maybe the oxyclean first to remove any crud and then a good bleach soak to sanitize. I'm sure someone who knows more about chemistry than me can speak to whether mixing the two products is a good idea or not, but I tend to err on the side of caution with these things!

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Very good call. I never mix cleaners. A few years ago, a cleaning crew went with the "if one is good, two is better" theory and mixed bleach and ammonia. The result is a poison gas (cyanide, I believe) and at least some of them died. Please don't mix cleaning agents.

freisste said:

Very good call. I never mix cleaners. A few years ago, a cleaning crew went with the "if one is good, two is better" theory and mixed bleach and ammonia. The result is a poison gas (cyanide, I believe) and at least some of them died. Please don't mix cleaning agents.

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Combo, meaning one after the other.

So much BS in this thread. You have a lacto infection. Most strains of lacto are gram-positive, meaning that they cannot take hold as long as your beer is above 10-25 IBU. Because you aren't using hops, you have no barrier against a bacteria that is all over the place. Lacto makes lactic acid. If you say your beer tastes like lemonade, it's lacto.

Can lacto work in such a short time span? Hell yes. I use lacto regularly to make quick sour beers. Some strains are very, very aggressive, rivaling sacc. They produce alcohol and CO2, and look exactly like sacc when working, but they aren't sacc.

People have this idea that there is a generic thing called an infection, and that it makes your beer bad. The truth is that if your beer is infected, it is a specific organism or organisms. While brett can be hard to dislodge from your equipment and can pop up in any beer once primary is done, lacto is easy to prevent. Use hops. Not much more to it than that. If you don't want to use hops, work harder on your sanitation. Maybe use glass, too.

rexbanner said:

So much BS in this thread. You have a lacto infection. Most strains of lacto are gram-positive, meaning that they cannot take hold as long as your beer is above 10-25 IBU. Because you aren't using hops, you have no barrier against a bacteria that is all over the place. Lacto makes lactic acid. If you say your beer tastes like lemonade, it's lacto.

Can lacto work in such a short time span? Hell yes. I use lacto regularly to make quick sour beers. Some strains are very, very aggressive, rivaling sacc. They produce alcohol and CO2, and look exactly like sacc when working, but they aren't sacc.

People have this idea that there is a generic thing called an infection, and that it makes your beer bad. The truth is that if your beer is infected, it is a specific organism or organisms. While brett can be hard to dislodge from your equipment and can pop up in any beer once primary is done, lacto is easy to prevent. Use hops. Not much more to it than that. If you don't want to use hops, work harder on your sanitation. Maybe use glass, too.

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Thank You rexbanner, Im not sure if you read where I did a 3 batch test, but one of them did have hops in it and it was sour too, I also did a very intense 3hr bleach bomb soak/1hr starsan soak on everything, is there any way to kill this strain of lacto off?

My plastic's that are infected are fairly new, very clean/no scratches/no stains, just incase if that makes any difference, I wash them as soon as I remove a brew/no sitting around with crap in them.

Im getting ready to do another 1 gal test batch, this time I will be using hops, and the brew will be going into a glass growler (growler has not come in contact with my brews) with a new air-lock, none of my infected plastic will be getting anywhere near this brew, the brew pot and spoon are the only 2 items that will be re-used.

Weeding through the BS is a pain in the arrs, Im a new brewer, trying to learn and could really use some knowledgeable help, Do you have anymore advise for me, straight answers seem to be hard to come by, I have been reading every infection thread I can find, very little info on removing it from equipment other than throw away and start over or posts stating I sour brews all the time and have no cross contamination.

So Im asking?

1=Can I kill this bug off ?

2=If so how, exactly how?

3=Do I have to throw all my plastics away ?

4=Are any of the plastics ok to keep ? or junk them all?

5=Is there a way to brew herb brews without lacto attacking it ?

Thanks for the help

Cheers

WileECoyote said:

Thank You rexbanner, Im not sure if you read where I did a 3 batch test, but one of them did have hops in it and it was sour too, I also did a very intense 3hr bleach bomb soak/1hr starsan soak on everything, is there any way to kill this strain of lacto off?

My plastic's that are infected are fairly new, very clean/no scratches/no stains, just incase if that makes any difference, I wash them as soon as I remove a brew/no sitting around with crap in them.

Im getting ready to do another 1 gal test batch, this time I will be using hops, and the brew will be going into a glass growler (growler has not come in contact with my brews) with a new air-lock, none of my infected plastic will be getting anywhere near this brew, the brew pot and spoon are the only 2 items that will be re-used.

Weeding through the BS is a pain in the arrs, Im a new brewer, trying to learn and could really use some knowledgeable help, Do you have anymore advise for me, straight answers seem to be hard to come by, I have been reading every infection thread I can find, very little info on removing it from equipment other than throw away and start over or posts stating I sour brews all the time and have no cross contamination.

So Im asking?

1=Can I kill this bug off ?

2=If so how, exactly how?

3=Do I have to throw all my plastics away ?

4=Are any of the plastics ok to keep ? or junk them all?

5=Is there a way to brew herb brews without lacto attacking it ?

Thanks for the help

Cheers

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The real key to keeping lacto out of beer is a short lag phase and vigorous fermentation. If your sacc ferments everything out of the beer, there will be nothing for the lacto to eat. Lacto is not superattenuative so it can't work if there are no fermentables left. Make sure you are pitching enough healthy yeast and aerating properly before pitching. Some lacto hiding in plastic cracks are not going to be able to out-compete sacc. There is a longer lag phase for lacto, especially when it is not operating in its preferred temp of 90-120 degrees. Your liquid yeast was probably dead, and with nothing to compete against it, lacto took hold.

Your equipment isn't infected. You have to understand that lacto and acetobacter are EVERYWHERE. Ever wonder why milk spoils? Why old beer smells like vinegar? These bacteria would naturally live in your beer if not for a few properties of wort, hops, and sacc. Lacto is naturally present on the surface of grain and a lot of vegetables, and probably a lot more things, too. It probably ends up in peoples' beer all the time, but never takes hold. When you pitch sacc, you are pitching an billion-man army of thoroughbred beer-making organisms against maybe a couple million cells of lacto. It doesn't stand a chance, normally.

rexbanner said:

So much BS in this thread. You have a lacto infection. Most strains of lacto are gram-positive, meaning that they cannot take hold as long as your beer is above 10-25 IBU. Because you aren't using hops, you have no barrier against a bacteria that is all over the place. Lacto makes lactic acid. If you say your beer tastes like lemonade, it's lacto.

Can lacto work in such a short time span? Hell yes. I use lacto regularly to make quick sour beers. Some strains are very, very aggressive, rivaling sacc. They produce alcohol and CO2, and look exactly like sacc when working, but they aren't sacc.

People have this idea that there is a generic thing called an infection, and that it makes your beer bad. The truth is that if your beer is infected, it is a specific organism or organisms. While brett can be hard to dislodge from your equipment and can pop up in any beer once primary is done, lacto is easy to prevent. Use hops. Not much more to it than that. If you don't want to use hops, work harder on your sanitation. Maybe use glass, too.

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This is not all necessarily accurate information. As OP pointed out, he used hops and still had the same problem. It can't just be discounted as lacto any more than a generic infection. There are many, many other species of bacteria and yeast that can and do infect beer. Homebrewers tend to be limited in believing that lacto, pedio, brett and wild yeast are the only possible options. They are not.

Presuming he did as he said and bleached, rinsed and sanitized with star-san, he should not have chronic infection following that unless he did something afterwards he didn't tell us. It is statistically implausible that he has a strain of some bacteria so powerful it can survive bleach and star-san but take eight days to start souring a beer, after sacc fermentation ended. And if he does have that immortal bacteria in his house, replacing all the plastic in his house will do nothing to stop it.

While we don't know all the facts here, from what we have been told, an infection at this point just seems implausible. There are several other things that can make a beer taste sour or seem sour. Particularly chemical reactions.

The best thing for OP would be to find another local homebrewer to walk through the brew day and look for the problems. It's a cheaper option than ditching $150 of plastic for something that may or may not fix the problem.