Winter Seasonal Beer Holly (Christmas Ale)

I couldn't find the original recipe and completely forgot that it called for 1lb of honey at flameout. I also added the hop addition for the full 60 min boil and did a 1oz horizon 4% AA in my whirlpool. I had the horizon in the back of the freezer for like 3 years in a food saver vacuum pac. I mashed a little high at 160-158* and fly sparged up to 6.5 gallons but my OG was off. I was somewhere between 1.060-62. My runings at 6.5 gals. were clear. That surly would have come up with the honey addition though. It's kicking ass in the fermenter as of now. I found the original recipe in my brewing journal and that's how I found my way back to this thread.

BTW I'm using a keggle gas fired HERMs system similar to the burtus 10 build.

Im going to keg this beer this year for the first time, has anyone ever experimented with adding the spices directly to the keg? I was envisioning something like keg hopping and adding the spices in a bag, and pulling them out when you get the desired flavor.

Mueltrain54 said:

Im going to keg this beer this year for the first time, has anyone ever experimented with adding the spices directly to the keg? I was envisioning something like keg hopping and adding the spices in a bag, and pulling them out when you get the desired flavor.

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My only fear with this would be the introduction of some kind of infection. I am doing an experiment this year. I have always followed the original recipe guidelines for adding spice. This year I made 11 gallons, which I will split between two kegs. In one keg I will add spices in a tea. In the other keg, I will add a tincture of all the spices I have been steeping in vodka for a few weeks. Like a spice extract. I am interested to see if there is any difference.

Mueltrain54 said:

Im going to keg this beer this year for the first time, has anyone ever experimented with adding the spices directly to the keg? I was envisioning something like keg hopping and adding the spices in a bag, and pulling them out when you get the desired flavor.

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There is a post in this thread that mentioned just adding the spices directly to the secondary for a period of time before bottling and they pretty much picked up no flavoring once bottle conditioned. Not sure how long it would take to get the same effects as the tea when you just add the raw spice to a keg. Could take a long time and you would more than likely get a more prominent ginger flavor over any other, just because the nature of the raw spices I would either make a tincture or tea. the Tea has always come out on top. Vodka like, @BrewCityBaller is doing, shouldn't impart any flavor and will create a strong tincture. But then you have to do more calculations to get the ratio correct for your addition especially if you are bottling. Not so much for kegging, bottling you would add a few drops to each bottle then add your beer on top.

Cheers,

archy said:

There is a post in this thread that mentioned just adding the spices directly to the secondary for a period of time before bottling and they pretty much picked up no flavoring once bottle conditioned. Not sure how long it would take to get the same effects as the tea when you just add the raw spice to a keg. Could take a long time and you would more than likely get a more prominent ginger flavor over any other, just because the nature of the raw spices I would either make a tincture or tea. the Tea has always come out on top. Vodka like, @BrewCityBaller is doing, shouldn't impart any flavor and will create a strong tincture. But then you have to do more calculations to get the ratio correct for your addition especially if you are bottling. Not so much for kegging, bottling you would add a few drops to each bottle then add your beer on top.

Cheers,

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Excellent point! I should have mentioned that I was kegging both of my batches for this experiment. Though if one was bottling they could just add the vodka tincture to the bottling bucket with priming sugar, rather than adding spice to each bottle.

For those that are using a fresh orange peel to grind, have you notice any hint oil from the peel and/or grind in the bottling bucket or bottles?

Has anyone compared fresh orange peel grind to dried orange peel?

CodeSection said:

For those that are using a fresh orange peel to grind, have you notice any hint oil from the peel and/or grind in the bottling bucket or bottles?

Has anyone compared fresh orange peel grind to dried orange peel?

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Good question. I assumed most have used fresh orange peel in the tea. I have seen dried orange peel at LHBS.

CodeSection said:

For those that are using a fresh orange peel to grind, have you notice any hint oil from the peel and/or grind in the bottling bucket or bottles?

Has anyone compared fresh orange peel grind to dried orange peel?

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I believe the original recipe called for dried orange peel, but admittedly I have always used fresh. However, in a contest last year both judges indicated a tartness in my batch that they individually said could be attributed to the orange rind. So this year I am going to dry dried sweet orange peel instead. We'll see!

BrewCityBaller said:

I believe the original recipe called for dried orange peel, but admittedly I have always used fresh. However, in a contest last year both judges indicated a tartness in my batch that they individually said could be attributed to the orange rind. So this year I am going to dry dried sweet orange peel instead. We'll see!

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Thanks @BrewCityBaller , I appreciate you responding. To expand a little, I wonder if the dried bitter or sweet orange peel would give much flavor in a 15 minute tea?

I was planning on brewing this tonight, however I am still at work so either Friday night or Saturday. I'm hoping for 11.25g batch going into the fermenter.

CodeSection said:

Thanks @BrewCityBaller , I appreciate you responding. To expand a little, I wonder if the dried bitter or sweet orange peel would give much flavor in a 15 minute tea?

I was planning on brewing this tonight, however I am still at work so either Friday night or Saturday. I'm hoping for 11.25g batch going into the fermenter.

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As far as I understand it, bitter orange isn't necessarily more bitter than sweet orange, but rather they each refer to separate species of oranges. I am honestly not sure which orange peel is said to impart which flavors, but I used sweet orange peel because that's what I had laying around!

@BrewCityBaller , do you think the dried sweet orange peel will give the same or more flavor than freshly grated sweet orange peel?

When I was at my lhbs last night, their dried orange peel was in chunks. Roughly in strip size of 1/4"x3/8".

Do you or anyone else use a French press? If so, what brand would you recommend?

CodeSection said:

@BrewCityBaller , do you think the dried sweet orange peel will give the same or more flavor than freshly grated sweet orange peel?

When I was at my lhbs last night, their dried orange peel was in chunks. Roughly in strip size of 1/4"x3/8".

Do you or anyone else use a French press? If so, what brand would you recommend?

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I can only speculate, but I don't think the dried orange peel will be the same as the fresh. I imagine it will be much more subtle, but after aging the effect may be similar. This is my first time using dried orange peel in this recipe, so I really won't know until Christmas how it went!

As for the french press, I don't think any particular brand excels over another. I have always used an inexpensive one I got off Amazon a few years ago. Really any should be fine.

Has anyone used ground cinnamon rather than crushed/broken cinnamon sticks or whole cinnamon sticks?

I made a Christmas ale using ground cinnamon at flameout and it worked very well. It was Vietnamese cinnamon from Costco. I wasn’t completely happy with my Christmas ale because I used vanilla and cinnamon as my spices. They came through very nicely, but all that I could think of horchata.

I think the real key with cinnamon is getting real cinnamon bark. Easier to control the impact on flavor.
Also powdered/ground cinnamon will be a mess when racking/bottling/kegging.

I missed brewing this earlier this week. It seemed like every day caused a delay of some kind. I was planning on brewing it tomorrow, then I realized three weeks from now I will be out of town.

To those that have brewed this recipe, has anyone had fermentation last only 2 1/2 weeks or went longer, say 3 1/2 weeks? I have always tried to avoid fermenting longer than three weeks.

Any side affects with too early or later fermentation as compared to the three week actual fermentation to what the recipe calls for?

I brewed this in 12 days last year .. turned out great ... 6 days at 64 then ramp it up to 70-72 for 4 days then cold crash for 2 days ... make the tea with about a pint of the finished beer and keg on day 12

I brewed this two weekends ago on September 15th and Last Saturday on the 29th I racked to my secondary so I could use my primary ferm bucket again and I was sitting at 1.014 so I would say you should be fine fermenting for two or less weeks if needed. This beer takes a minute to mature anyways so you could leave it for a while without worries.

Kegged this last night. The tea smelled so good, and the beer tasted great. Planning on bottling from the carbed keg around Dec 15th. whoop whoop.

BrewCityBaller said:

My only fear with this would be the introduction of some kind of infection. I am doing an experiment this year. I have always followed the original recipe guidelines for adding spice. This year I made 11 gallons, which I will split between two kegs. In one keg I will add spices in a tea. In the other keg, I will add a tincture of all the spices I have been steeping in vodka for a few weeks. Like a spice extract. I am interested to see if there is any difference.

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I do this! After the first year's tea turned the beer too bitter for my liking. Tincture all the way! Everyone liked year 2 over year 1 at Christmas Eve! I used roughly 4oz of my extract.

me08053 said:

I do this! After the first year's tea turned the beer too bitter for my liking. Tincture all the way! Everyone liked year 2 over year 1 at Christmas Eve! I used roughly 4oz of my extract.

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This is my 5th year brewing this, and each year I tinker a little to make incremental improvements. This will be the first year of a big experiment!

A side note: does anyone have an opinion, or can anyone point me in the direction of literature, about aging warm vs. cold. Due to a lack of space I'd like to let this batch age in my kegerator, but not at the expense of proper aging.

BrewCityBaller said:

This is my 5th year brewing this, and each year I tinker a little to make incremental improvements. This will be the first year of a big experiment!

A side note: does anyone have an opinion, or can anyone point me in the direction of literature, about aging warm vs. cold. Due to a lack of space I'd like to let this batch age in my kegerator, but not at the expense of proper aging.

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I do not know for sure but basic chemistry points to a slower thermal decomposition at lower temps. I have kegged this beer and let it carb for two weeks now and I am going to transfer to bottles this weekend. I tasted a half pint of this last night and it tastes the same to me as it did when I kegged it. It's been sitting at around 39*

Well crap!! First time brewing this and all went plenty well until I forgot to add the honey at flame out!!! Is there anything you can do now that it’s fermenting? I have plenty of ingredients and might just redo tomorrow.

neon0107 said:

Well crap!! First time brewing this and all went plenty well until I forgot to add the honey at flame out!!! Is there anything you can do now that it’s fermenting? I have plenty of ingredients and might just redo tomorrow.

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You can definitely still add honey to your beer after fermentation has begun. Just read up on it to be sure you do so in a sanitary manner.

neon0107 said:

Well crap!! First time brewing this and all went plenty well until I forgot to add the honey at flame out!!! Is there anything you can do now that it’s fermenting? I have plenty of ingredients and might just redo tomorrow.

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You can still add your honey. Honey naturally is anti bacterial so you don't need to boil it for 10 mins. In fact, I used three different types of honey in my cupboard to get to the one pound needed for the beer and one of those containers was completely crystalized. I had to heat it up for like an hour to get it back to normal looking honey.
I would heat it up the container in a hot water bath to get the viscosity lower than room temp and once you are ready spray the outside with sanitizer and open your fermenter and dump it in. you should be good. Just MAKE SURE you sanitize your hands and everything you touch between the honey and your fermenter. You can't over do it when it comes to this but you can under do it and ruin your beer.
On a positive note, theoretically, this will allow your yeast to consume the more complex sugars from the converted starches rather than what the simple sugars the honey will add. There are theories about adding simple sugars after fermentation has began and the presumed benefits. Even if you don't add the honey the beer will be as it was intended. the honey just gives the gravity a boost to get a higher ABV. I don't think it has the ability to add and additional flavors to this type of beer especially with the tea that is added.

anyways cheers,

Agreed with the statement above.

You may get more aroma/flavor from the honey adding it towards the end of the initial fermentation. Typically you'd lose a lot of it because of it blowing off during fermentation, this may allow some of the volatiles to stay in the beer better.

I have brewed this for the last couple years and have gotten great feedback, but ive always felt like the spice notes are just a little too muted for my tastes, so this year I decided to up the spices roughly 25% except for the ginger. In the past I have bottled this beer and usually try my first bottle after 4-5 weeks. Well this year in addition to increasing the spices, I am kegging it for the first time, and so i tried a sample almost immediately and lets just say the spice notes were far from being in the background lol. For those of you who keg this, how does the spice character usually develop over time?

Mueltrain54 said:

I have brewed this for the last couple years and have gotten great feedback, but ive always felt like the spice notes are just a little too muted for my tastes, so this year I decided to up the spices roughly 25% except for the ginger. In the past I have bottled this beer and usually try my first bottle after 4-5 weeks. Well this year in addition to increasing the spices, I am kegging it for the first time, and so i tried a sample almost immediately and lets just say the spice notes were far from being in the background lol. For those of you who keg this, how does the spice character usually develop over time?

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I kegged mine on Oct 15th and as of Nov 15th the spice characters are mellowing out quit a bit. I didn't use as much ginger (fresh grated about 1tbs) and used sweet orange peel. So far the orange peel and vanilla is the most prominent flavors. I ran out of Co2, so until I get more, this is still sitting in the keg. I plan on transferring to bottles this weekend so I can give some out for Christmas and to age.

The day is finally here! Christmas Ale 2018 is on tap and ready to go.

Mueltrain54 said:

For those of you who keg this, how does the spice character usually develop over time?

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To answer my own question the spices definitely mellowed out some with a few weeks in the keg, and it seems like the carbonation helps meld all those flavors together. This was my best version to date. I think upping the spices by about 25% helped suit it more to my tastes, but kegging and then bottling from the keg certainly made for a brighter, crisper beer.

Mine came out delicous with a ton of vanilla up front. I used fresh ginger and I can't pick up any of it. I only used about 1/2 a tablespoon. I was afraid it was going to be too much. This one fermented well but came out a little wet in the mouth. Not much feel with little head retention. Still came out delicious though. Cheers mates!

BrewCityBaller said:

This year I made 11 gallons, which I will split between two kegs. In one keg I will add spices in a tea. In the other keg, I will add a tincture of all the spices I have been steeping in vodka for a few weeks. Like a spice extract. I am interested to see if there is any difference.

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Which did you prefer? I have done both but not in the same year, hard to judge fairly that way, but I think I preferred the tea method.

Last year I used fresh "baby ginger" for the first time, and I would highly recommend it. It seems to add a much smoother ginger flavor without dominating the other spices. It is what hardywood uses for their ginger bread stout.

Mueltrain54 said:

Which did you prefer? I have done both but not in the same year, hard to judge fairly that way, but I think I preferred the tea method.

Last year I used fresh "baby ginger" for the first time, and I would highly recommend it. It seems to add a much smoother ginger flavor without dominating the other spices. It is what hardywood uses for their ginger bread stout.

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I ended up preferring the spice tea version. The vodka tincture version had a tartness that the spiced tea did not. Perhaps it was from the orange peel, hard to say.

Is "baby ginger" just ginger root that hasn't grown very big yet?

BrewCityBaller said:

I ended up preferring the spice tea version. The vodka tincture version had a tartness that the spiced tea did not. Perhaps it was from the orange peel, hard to say.

Is "baby ginger" just ginger root that hasn't grown very big yet?

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Have you considered using Sweet Orange Peels instead?

BrewCityBaller said:

Is "baby ginger" just ginger root that hasn't grown very big yet?

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I don’t think the size is necessarily part of it, but it is just immature ginger plants. They’re pink/white and don’t have that tough outer layer. Would be something you would most likely have to source at a local farmers market.

Here’s the article that inspired me to try it.

https://www.foodandwine.com/beer/hardywood-gingerbread-stout-story

CodeSection said:

Have you considered using Sweet Orange Peels instead?

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I use fresh orange peel. Take an orange, use a grater to take off the orange part of the peel. doing my best to leave the pith behind.

BrewCityBaller said:

I use fresh orange peel. Take an orange, use a grater to take off the orange part of the peel. doing my best to leave the pith behind.

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I was using freshly grated ginger, freshly scraped vanilla beans, and cinnamon sticks. When it came to the orange, my LHBS suggested against using freshly grated orange peels due to the oils that could give an off flavor. I don't know if that true. However, since I wanted sweet orange, I used the sweet orange dried peels in the tea I made.

So, I take it no off flavors with the freshly grated orange peel?

CodeSection said:

I was using freshly grated ginger, freshly scraped vanilla beans, and cinnamon sticks. When it came to the orange, my LHBS suggested against using freshly grated orange peels due to the oils that could give an off flavor. I don't know if that true. However, since I wanted sweet orange, I used the sweet orange dried peels in the tea I made.

So, I take it no off flavors with the freshly grated orange peel?

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I wonder if the off-flavors they were referring to are related to the orange pith. That's what I always heard. I have never detected off-flavors in mine, but that doesn't mean they aren't there. Maybe this year I will split batch, half with fresh and half with dried orange peel.

I used orange zest last year and had no off flavors, but I avoided the pith entirely. This year I'm giving the dried / bitter orange peel a go.

Thoughts on adding 4oz honey malt to get more honey flavor to come through (5gal batch size)? Not sure it needs it, but as long as I'm making 2 batches I'm considering giving it a shot. Increase / decrease the amount?