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chocotaco

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I have a 50-amp (presumably 240-volt but I will check when I get home) breaker in my box that was previously used for an above-ground hot tub. We had the hot tub removed when we bought the place because it was kind of a maintenance nightmare. When they removed the tub they left the electrical wires just kind of hanging out of the exterior wall wrapped in electrical tape (obviously they turned off the breaker as well).

I was thinking it would be cool to repurpose that run for outside electric brewing. Is that something that could be done? Which one of these would be easier:

1) Installing one (or two?) 220V outlets in a weatherproof gang box. Preferably I would use NEMA 6-20P outlet which is what the induction burner that I'm looking at using. I say "two?" because based on my rudimentary understanding of household electrical, it seems like I should be able to have two 20-amp outlets on a 50-amp breaker and as long as I'm at it I don't want to short-change myself.

2) Installing a box with four standard 120V GFI outlets (not sure how you would do that from a 240V circuit, but I'm up for it if it's DIY-able) for using a few smaller 120V heating elements - I would actually kind of prefer this as the elements would be cheaper than the induction burner (although less versatile)

3) I also have a natural gas pipe that goes outside. It's capped and I would have to remove the cap and install whatever valve I would need and buy a natural gas burner to work with it (I would probably go with the Blichmann burner with natural gas kit in this case). But the burner would probably be the same price as the induction burner I was looking at... safety and efficiency being the differentiators.

My question is this: are any of these things that I could do myself? Hiring someone to either install outlets or install a valve on the gas outlet would be expensive. If the electrical is as simple as wiring something up with wire nuts and screwing it into the wall then I could do that; to work with the gas outlet would probably take a visit from the gas company which I'm betting wouldn't be cheap (I don't have direct access to my gas meter as it's on my neighbor's property.)

Any thoughts would be appreciated; if I can safely work with the existing electrical than I would think that's the better option.

Thanks!
 
Note: I have taken a few EE courses as part of my comp sci degree - I don't have any illusion that this translates to expertise in high voltage electrical safety, but I can probably understand any terminology you throw at me, so don't hold back.
 
Can't imagine why someone would leave wire dangling with tape on them. Don't care if the breaker is off. How many wires are there? You'll need 4 if you want 240v and 120v circuits. That being said what you want to do is easy. My feeling is that if you have to ask these types of questions, get a professional to do it!
 
Poobah58 said:
Can't imagine why someone would leave wire dangling with tape on them. Don't care if the breaker is off. How many wires are there? You'll need 4 if you want 240v and 120v circuits. That being said what you want to do is easy. My feeling is that if you have to ask these types of questions, get a professional to do it!

Unfortunately, I agree. However, folks can always learn (I did).

It sounds like you'd easily be able leverage the existing wiring to do some brewing outdoors. 50 amp should be big enough to do just about anything you'd want to with up to two 5500watt elements running simultaneously.

I'm going to assume that your hot tub had the spa panel with it when they removed it and all you have now is a 50A breaker (not GFCI protected). What you may want to do is run a spa panel outside using the existing wiring and then go from there to your required receptacles in an outdoor gang box or two via some conduit. Then some sort of portable control panel for your brewery.

And yes, you can run 120v off a 240V circuit using just one of the hot legs and the neutral and ground (you need 4 wires as mentioned above).
 
Unfortunately, I agree. However, folks can always learn (I did).

It sounds like you'd easily be able leverage the existing wiring to do some brewing outdoors. 50 amp should be big enough to do just about anything you'd want to with up to two 5500watt elements running simultaneously.

I'm going to assume that your hot tub had the spa panel with it when they removed it and all you have now is a 50A breaker (not GFCI protected). What you may want to do is run a spa panel outside using the existing wiring and then go from there to your required receptacles in an outdoor gang box or two via some conduit. Then some sort of portable control panel for your brewery.

And yes, you can run 120v off a 240V circuit using just one of the hot legs and the neutral and ground (you need 4 wires as mentioned above).

Yes, the hot tub had the panel in it from what I can remember. I will snap a picture of the "rat tail" with the e-tape removed and the breaker tomorrow morning when there's light. The people who left the wire out were "spa removers" and not electricians so they probably didn't feel like it was part of their job description to remove the whole thing - there was never an electrical box; it was just strung through conduit attached to the outside of the building and wired directly into the panel in the hot tub so they would have had to remove the whole conduit if they were going to close up the wiring. I don't really blame them for leaving it as-is. Besides, this way I might actually benefit if I can install an outlet.
 
You shouldn't have 20a outlets on a 50a breaker - you should have 20a outlets on a 20a breaker because you will have the ability to draw more than 20a through a 20a outlet protected by a 50a breaker (Your homeowners insurance wouldn't like that much..). You could put in a sub-panel fed from the 50a breaker and split it out to two 20a circuits.
 
If the 4 wires dangling from the wall are fed from a GFCI breaker inside, you can use one of these:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D...nd-Neutral-QO24L60NRNM/100174454#.Up11uOKzjmg

OR even this to keep your 240V options open:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Connecti...ct-2-_-100567181-_-100669936-_-N#.Up13TOKzjmg

Again, you must have that GFCI breaker in the main panel


If not, you need a GFCI equiped panel like this:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-60-Amp-GFI-Spa-Panel-UG412RMW260P/100567181#.Up12S-Kzjmg

It appears to have space for additional breakers, but I cannot find that info on their site.

'da Kid
 
1) Installing one (or two?) 220V outlets in a weatherproof gang box. Preferably I would use NEMA 6-20P outlet which is what the induction burner that I'm looking at using. I say "two?" because based on my rudimentary understanding of household electrical, it seems like I should be able to have two 20-amp outlets on a 50-amp breaker and as long as I'm at it I don't want to short-change myself.

2) Installing a box with four standard 120V GFI outlets (not sure how you would do that from a 240V circuit, but I'm up for it if it's DIY-able) for using a few smaller 120V heating elements - I would actually kind of prefer this as the elements would be cheaper than the induction burner (although less versatile)

In both of these cases you would need a sub-panel with additional circuit breakers. The easiest thing to do is to wire a single 240V 50 amp outlet and use a 5500 watt heater element - no additional panel or breakers required.

Also, you may want to look into your area's electrical codes. Where I live a permit is required for any electrical work and it has to be performed by a licensed contractor. Not that it's ever stopped me from doing minor work...
 
I had an identical situation in our home where the hot tub had been removed and the 50 amp circuit left in place.

I chose to pull the 6-3 w/ground cable back inside to my utility room brew area and run it into my existing RIMS panel.

I then replaced the original standard breaker in my panel with a 50 amp GFCI breaker

With the additional capacity I am all-electric now and brew year-around indoors.

2013-10-28 16.56.18 (Small).jpg
 
Note: I have taken a few EE courses as part of my comp sci degree - I don't have any illusion that this translates to expertise in high voltage electrical safety, but I can probably understand any terminology you throw at me, so don't hold back.

Having survived 40 + years of finger pointing between hardware engineers and software engineers I am chuckling softly but that aside I would suggest that you get a copy of the NEC from Amazon (or elsewhere) and start going through it. It's not great bed time reading (unless you suffer from insomnia) but it will tell you everything you need to know about wire sizes, conduits, receptacles, disconnects, breaker sizing, GFCI, grounding, neutral earth bonding.... Follow it and ignore any advice you may get here that conflicts with it. Also ignore statements that you don't need to follow it (it is to be hoped that there will be none). Your insurance company probably feels otherwise.
 
Thanks for all the advice, guys.

I didn't have time to get the e-tape off the (cold) wire, but just by looking at the printing on the jacketing it's clear that it's a 4-lead copper wire. It's #8 AWG so it's good for 50A. The breaker seems to just be a standard 50-amp 2-pole breaker, not GFCI.

My current plan is to install a 50-amp spa panel with a GFCI main breaker pre-installed. Then I'll install one 20A/220V breaker for a NEMA 6-20 outlet and two 15A/120V breakers for two standard outlets. The 15A breakers will be AFCI because that seems to be required by code now for 120V/15A circuits. That will bring me up to a total of 50A of circuits on the 50A spa breaker; is that OK or is it cutting it too close? I don't plan on using all the circuits at once, but I don't want to do something that's wrong either. I'll check to make sure the spa panel has a 100%-rated main breaker.

I checked my local code (Orange County, CA) and it does not mention anything about requiring a contractor. But it does say I am supposed to get a permit for something of this magnitude. I think I can wiggle that, though, because there is a permitting exemption for bringing something "unsafe" up to code - and I think a loose wire hanging out of a conduit qualifies as "unsafe". So I'm thinking I'm gonna just go ahead and do it. Thoughts?

As long as I have a 4-lead wire and it's on the same building as the main breaker (even though it's on the other side of the building) then I don't need a new grounding rod, right? Because that's something I'm not prepared to do.

I downloaded NFPA-70 2011 edition and am currently (no pun intended) reading it as per ajdelange's advice. If anyone else wants the PDF, let me know - the gubmint makes it really hard to access because they want you to pay them a hundred bucks for it even though it ought to be public domain.
 
I had a similar setup w/ spa panel and this was my solution:
* Remove wiring from GFCI 220v outlet to old spa.
* Install a 220v 4-wire dryer plug inside panel.
* Connect e-brewing control panel to power via 4-wire dryer cord when in use.

This setup is not to code but it is safe and the outlet is covered (by subpanel cover) and 220v breaker is turned off when not in use and it was a $10 mod. If you are not familiar w/ electrical than higher a pro.

FYI, not sure how you could have a spa hooked up w/out a GFCI. Check if your main panels breaker going to spa sub panel has a GFCI.
 
Be advised that with the popular Midwest spa panel that Home Depot carries, the GFCI does not protect the extra breaker spaces. Out of curiosity, if you have 50a available, why not go with a 5500w element?
 
As long as I have a 4-lead wire and it's on the same building as the main breaker (even though it's on the other side of the building) then I don't need a new grounding rod, right? Because that's something I'm not prepared to do.
I'll say no but also advise that you don't takemy word for it because the subject of grounding secondary panels is one thing that has confused many here with the part that gives most trouble being that the neutral and earth are not to be bonded anywhere but at the service entrance. This is why the neutral terminal on panels is insulated from the enclosure.
 
Be advised that with the popular Midwest spa panel that Home Depot carries, the GFCI does not protect the extra breaker spaces. Out of curiosity, if you have 50a available, why not go with a 5500w element?

I must be confused about what the spa panel does. I was thinking that the 50-amp breaker pre-installed functions as like a "main breaker" for the panel and the other breakers feed from that one. Do they all feed directly from the upstream leads? If that's the case I'll have to get a 20A/220V GFCI breaker and for my 15A circuits I'll use AFCI breakers and GFCI receptacles.

I am not going to use a brewing control panel or heating elements; my plan is to use a 3500W induction burner (hence the need for NEMA 6-20 outlet). I am installing the two 15A circuits in case I decide to go with a couple of heatsticks instead of the induction burner (I am not going to be drilling my kettle so I won't be doing any kind of automatic e-brew setup like you guys do). I make small batches, usually 2.5 gal and sometimes 5 gal so I don't think I would ever need a 5500w heating element.
 
Taco,
The two set screw terminals under the GFCI SPA breaker are for the feed wires. That four slot buss is NOT GFCI protected.

The 20A single pole GFCI breakers shouldn't be too bad $$.

OR

You should be permitted to use 20A GFCI receptacles which run less then $20 for a good one. An additional $10 for each standard 20A breaker.

:D No additional ground rod needed as you already have one back to the Service Panel.

:D You are fine installing a 50A(or 60A) GFCI and a couple 20A GFCI circuits on the 50A breaker in the Service Panel.

'da Kid
 
I think I'm with you now.

Yes, pull that SPA breaker and install a 20A double-pole GFCI in its place.

Where did you see the requirement for Arc Flash breakers outside?

'da Kid
 
Everyone that dreams of having a 240v/50amp circuit for Ebrewing is going to curse you for squandering the opportunity. How much is the induction plate?

$180: http://www.webstaurantstore.com/ava...r-208-240v-3500-watt/177IC3500 208*240.html

It's probably not any cheaper than building an e-brew setup, but here's the reasons I'm doing it this way:

1) I am loath to drill up my kettle because they're expensive and I would probably screw it up
2) The induction burner is more versatile - can also use it to cook stinky food outdoors without having to grill it
3) The induction burner has a temperature controller on it which I'm hoping I can use for BIAB mashing (with a little experimentation & some insulation) without getting an e-brew control box, PID, pump, plumbing, etc.

Anyone who dreams of a 50A circuit for building a fancy e-brew system is more than welcome to come by and have at it - you can leave the equipment when you're done; I'll take good care of it for ya :D
 
I think I'm with you now.

Yes, pull that SPA breaker and install a 20A double-pole GFCI in its place.

Where did you see the requirement for Arc Flash breakers outside?

'da Kid

You're right, AFCI is not required outdoors. I misinterpreted 210.12 to mean they were requiring ALL 120/15 receptacles be arc-fault protected, but they are only talking about rooms which means indoors.
 
Feed the power into the GFCI breaker and the other breaker slots are GFCI protected, ie the GFCI is the main for the sub panel.
 
No, you can't. It isn't the GFCI part. Modern 'GFCI' breakers now launch a 120 Hz signal onto the line to detect grounded neutral faults and back feeding would louse that scheme up. There is a sticker on GFCI breakers that says 'do not back feed'.
 
Hey guys, another couple questions (thanks for all the advice so far!)

1. Since I am going to use all GFCI breakers in the panel, do I really need a "spa panel" since I am not going to use that 50-amp breaker that's included? Can I just get one of these: http://www.lowes.com/pd_31378-76863-TL412R1_0__?productId=1082923 (125-amp 4-space main lug load center panel) even though it will be fed off a 50-amp breaker, it should be fine, right?

2. The current dangly wire is run through a conduit on the outside of the house. The conduit reaches right down nearly to the patio, pretty much where I would want to put the gang boxes. Can I just drill a hole in the conduit, pull out the cable from the main panel at around eye level, mount the new panel there, and run cables from the circuit down through the same conduit and attach the boxes there? Is it acceptable to run multiple cables through the same conduit? Or will I have to cut the conduit at the level of the new panel and run separate conduits down from the panel?
 
I have a 50-amp (presumably 240-volt but I will check when I get home) breaker in my box that was previously used for an above-ground hot tub. We had the hot tub removed when we bought the place because it was kind of a maintenance nightmare. When they removed the tub they left the electrical wires just kind of hanging out of the exterior wall wrapped in electrical tape (obviously they turned off the breaker as well).

I was thinking it would be cool to repurpose that run for outside electric brewing. Is that something that could be done? Which one of these would be easier:

1) Installing one (or two?) 220V outlets in a weatherproof gang box. Preferably I would use NEMA 6-20P outlet which is what the induction burner that I'm looking at using. I say "two?" because based on my rudimentary understanding of household electrical, it seems like I should be able to have two 20-amp outlets on a 50-amp breaker and as long as I'm at it I don't want to short-change myself.

2) Installing a box with four standard 120V GFI outlets (not sure how you would do that from a 240V circuit, but I'm up for it if it's DIY-able) for using a few smaller 120V heating elements - I would actually kind of prefer this as the elements would be cheaper than the induction burner (although less versatile)

3) I also have a natural gas pipe that goes outside. It's capped and I would have to remove the cap and install whatever valve I would need and buy a natural gas burner to work with it (I would probably go with the Blichmann burner with natural gas kit in this case). But the burner would probably be the same price as the induction burner I was looking at... safety and efficiency being the differentiators.

My question is this: are any of these things that I could do myself? Hiring someone to either install outlets or install a valve on the gas outlet would be expensive. If the electrical is as simple as wiring something up with wire nuts and screwing it into the wall then I could do that; to work with the gas outlet would probably take a visit from the gas company which I'm betting wouldn't be cheap (I don't have direct access to my gas meter as it's on my neighbor's property.)

Any thoughts would be appreciated; if I can safely work with the existing electrical than I would think that's the better option.

Thanks!
Dude, do your self a favor and hire an electrician. I've been an electrician for over 20 year, it's not a hobby. Safety should be your first concern, for your family, if you have one and also your dwelling. If you have 50a 240v at the location needed, then possibly setting a 60a panel might be a smarter option. then you could add 20a breakers to the panel and add 20a rec off of that panel. panel and rec are cheap compared to fire damage or more seriously someone getting hurt. play it safe!
 
Hey guys, another couple questions (thanks for all the advice so far!)

1. Since I am going to use all GFCI breakers in the panel, do I really need a "spa panel" since I am not going to use that 50-amp breaker that's included? Can I just get one of these: http://www.lowes.com/pd_31378-76863-TL412R1_0__?productId=1082923 (125-amp 4-space main lug load center panel) even though it will be fed off a 50-amp breaker, it should be fine, right?

Works for me. Make sure to purchase the 'Ground Bar' accessory kit.

'da kid
 
2. The current dangly wire is run through a conduit on the outside of the house. The conduit reaches right down nearly to the patio, pretty much where I would want to put the gang boxes. Can I just drill a hole in the conduit, pull out the cable from the main panel at around eye level, mount the new panel there, and run cables from the circuit down through the same conduit and attach the boxes there? Is it acceptable to run multiple cables through the same conduit? Or will I have to cut the conduit at the level of the new panel and run separate conduits down from the panel?

OK, you have me confused again. :)
We have your interpretation of the physical items, but a pic would really help.

1) If you can pull the wires back into the main panel far enough to cut the conduit, then do that. I would tape a small wire to the ends on the bundle dangling. Pull the wires back far enough, and then carefully cut the conduit, trying NOT to cut your small 'pulling' wire.

2) Yes, multiple cables, multiple sizes . . . . . with only one ground wire are permitted in conduit. There are tables/formulas for the capacity of the conduit.

'da Kid
 
Dude, do your self a favor and hire an electrician. I've been an electrician for over 20 year, it's not a hobby. Safety should be your first concern, for your family, if you have one and also your dwelling. If you have 50a 240v at the location needed, then possibly setting a 60a panel might be a smarter option. then you could add 20a breakers to the panel and add 20a rec off of that panel. panel and rec are cheap compared to fire damage or more seriously someone getting hurt. play it safe!

I know that hiring a professional is always the better option for most things, especially where safety is concerned.

However, I don't have several hundred spare dollars for this. So it's either A) more debt, B) leave a wire dangling out of a conduit outside my house, or C) do it myself and try to do the best dang job a non-electrician can do. I am reasonably confident I can do it in safe manner, but if that opinion changes at any point during the project you have my word I will just give up and leave it as-is (with that 50A breaker turned off) until such a time as I can afford an electrician.
 
OK, since I don't seem to be able to explain the situation very well, I recorded a short video of the whole thing so you guys can see. Remember, I was not involved in installing the spa so if this thing is totally cukoo bananas it's not my fault! Also, if this video makes the whole thing look like a disaster, let me know so I can leave it be.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Y'know, I just realized something that I should have thought of earlier.

I can just pop out the 50A breaker in the main panel and replace it with a double pole 20A breaker. Then it's just a matter of putting a gang box at the end of the existing conduit and connecting up a 20A/220V outlet. Much easier, right? I don't really NEED the extra 15A outlets.

It also just clicked to me that the conduit runs right next to my gas furnace. Is that bad? It seems bad. Maybe I need an AFCI breaker and a GFCI receptacle?
 
I would just install a weatherproof loadcenter outside at the end of the run and then you could do whatever you wanted. Leave the 50A 2Pole breaker inside and roll with it, take the conduit loose at the last fitting, pull the conduit off the wire, cut to desired length, put back on wire, get a compression connector and myers hub or whatever weatherproof hub you can get for the loadcenter and roll with it. Then you have flexibility to do whatever you want.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-12...er-NEMA-3R-BR816L125RP/100160121#.Uqjc7uLFoYs
hubs for that panel: http://www.homedepot.com/s/eaton%20hub?NCNI-5

Edit: I'd also use some offset nipples to go to your bell boxes and just mount those directly under the panel with weatherproof covers. http://www.homedepot.com/s/offset%20nipple?NCNI-5 http://www.homedepot.com/s/bell%20box?NCNI-5 http://www.homedepot.com/s/in%20use%20cover?NCNI-5
 
Cool, a video . . . . .it really helps a lot.

OK,
Yes, You can swap out that 50A C.B for a 20A
Yes, you can use that same #8 wire.

BUT

You are gonna have a hard time getting that wire under the set screw on the 20A breaker AND likewise under the set screw on the 20A outlet. Even the manufacturer would frown on it.

SO

You will need to pigtail splice a 20A(12ga) piece of wire on each end of the #8 run.
The larger Blue wire nuts will need to be used.

Don't forget the GFCI protection!!!!!!!

I don't have audio at my dumb server terminal, but I think I know where you want the outlet box mounted.

I would seperate the conduit at that union about 8' high. Pull the conduit off the wall and slide it off the #8 cable. Cut your conduit, deburr the sharp edges and slide it back onto the cable.

I would recommend a larger 4" square outdoor box just for the pigtail connections and mount your outlet with it's box below/next to that.

Don't sweat the NG line.

'da Kid
 
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