bovineblitz
Well-Known Member
Wouldn't it get sanitized when you sanitize your bottles then hang them to drip dry on the bottling tree?
Is bottle conditioning necessary?
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Wouldn't it get sanitized when you sanitize your bottles then hang them to drip dry on the bottling tree?
dzlater
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That makes sense
from How To Brew:
"When you add the priming sugar and bottle your beer, the yeast go through the same three stages of fermentation as the main batch, including the production of byproducts. If the beer is bottled early, i.e. 1 week old, then that small amount of yeast in the bottle has to do the double task of conditioning the priming byproducts as well as those from the main ferment. You could very well end up with an off-flavored batch."
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter8-5.html
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brewzombie
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Could a campden tablet be added to the bottling bucket to prevent oxidation? I haven't done it, but if you use a low enough dose, it shouldn't hurt the yeast. Will the beer still carbonate with 1 tablet per 5 gallons?
XXguy
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You're all overthinking this. Oxidation during bottling is a near non-existent issue.
Frodo
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How do you know that? It seems to me that it's an ideal situation for beer to become oxidized, during bottling, so if you have some sort of study you're referring to or whatnot I'd really be interested to read it.
MyNameIsPaul
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For Reals. Just drink the damn beer already and get brewing on another batch. Keep the lid on your bottling bucket and slowly leak some CO2 into it as you bottle if you want a protective layer from the oxygen and use oxygen-absorbing bottlecaps. More importantly, just drink the beer, admire your work, get drunk, lather, rinse, repeat.
XXguy
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Emprical data aside ( I've tasted literally a thousand bottles of homebrewed beer bottled from buckets that did not have oxidation issues) - you could read here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/severe-effects-oxidation-196663/#post2287566
Or listen here:
http://s125483039.onlinehome.us/archive/bs_hsa1-26-09.mp3
The title is Hot Side Aeration, but they talk about oxidation in many different forms. The biggest impact of any exposure to oxidation would seem to be in long-term stability of flavors.
It could, but that may well prevent bottle carbonation and conditioning, too. Plus you'd want to wait for the sulfur aromas and tastes to break down, which takes a week or two.
Frodo
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I am not disputing your personal experience. However the Brewstrong episode you cited talks almost exclusively about hot side aeration and only mentions that you still want to minimize aeration of beer during packaging (several times), but they don't specifically talk about the effects of aeration during packaging (i.e. bottling).
Their take home message after hearing the chat with Charlie Bamforth was that hot side aeration, and oxidation reactions, occur "upstream" during mashing, boiling, etc., but the effects of the oxidation is cleaned up by pitching healthy yeast and proper amount of yeast during the fermentation. It was an interesting discussion really. Charlie did not dispell hot side aeration as a myth as I've often heard people on HBT say; he said it exists but the yeast transform the effects of the oxidation during fermentation. He also stated that when brewing it is wise to try to minimize the amount of hot side aeration, so the yeast don't have too much to deal with. But they specifically note that it's not something to worry too much about.
They also specifically say that all beer will eventually stale from oxidation, but you can do things to slow down the staling such as being careful not to aerate the beer during packaging, and storing the beer cold as chemical reactions occur magnitudes quicker in hotter temperatures. Charlie stated for every 10C rise in temp any particular reaction will occur 2 to 3 times faster. Furthermore, they also spoke about Sierra Nevada's switch from twist off caps back to pry off caps because they were convinced that it made the product more stable; that it was more resistent to leakage of air into the bottles. Charlie also specifically stated that canned beer is more stable than bottled beer, because it is better sealed.
Frodo
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It's funny Charlie even mentioned in the discussion that when he was in Australia (I think?) he was served a beer in a can and even though he knew it was technically a better package the psychology of it made him think it was an inferior beer. Something along those lines anyway... and actually I prefer stuff out of glass bottles myself, soda included. Maybe it's just psychological? Who knows.
XXguy
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I think that's a fair summary of that Brewstrong episode. I'd try to point out that they made the claim that until handling & storage of the product was addressed/controlled, improved bottling processes would have very little impact.
Anyone who is worried about oxidation in their homebrew should listen to the episode for themselves. There's plenty of snippets we could cut & paste, but the overall theme was that while you should do what you can to minimize the introduction of oxygen into your beer, most beer is being consumed long before it has a chance to turn stale, and all the efforts you do take mean little compared to storage temperature and packaging.
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brewzombie
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From this discussion, my current thinking is that potential off-flavors caused by bottling (oxidation, infection, fermentation by-products, etc.) should NOT be particularly strong and should NOT last much longer than a month. It's a small amount of yeast activity (small amount of sugar), and a small risk of oxidation or infection. The yeast should be able to clean up any fermentation by-products to minimal levels by a month, if not sooner.
I'm now convinced that I have more dominant contributors to my off-flavor. In particular, I suspect chlorinated brew water (1-3 ppm) and potentially oxidized LME. I have switched to DME and will be brewing with campden tablets in the future to correct these issues. I'm hopeful that my off-flavor will be substantially reduced or even eliminated. Wish me luck!
I'm now convinced that I have more dominant contributors to my off-flavor. In particular, I suspect chlorinated brew water (1-3 ppm) and potentially oxidized LME. I have switched to DME and will be brewing with campden tablets in the future to correct these issues. I'm hopeful that my off-flavor will be substantially reduced or even eliminated. Wish me luck!
agroff383
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I noticed these same flavors with extract brews with steeping grains. A few of them I used LME and then switched to distilled water and dry malt extract and it was a massive improvement. Depeding on your water you have you may be adding excessive quantities of certain minerals contributing to your off flavors, and it is possible to oxidize beer when bottling by stirring the priming sugar too hard perhaps? i boil my priming solution and cool it and add to the bucket first and then when i rack it blends the priming solution well enough, i never have any carbonation problems. just a few thoughts.
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