First recipe attempt: Vanilla Sweet Stout (extract)

Hey guys, Ive got a few brews under my belt now, been using kits from NB so far. Im not quite ready to start partial mashes yet (still need a few pieces of equipment, will probably wait til me and the fiance move out of our current residence), but Id like to try altering a NB recipe kit to come up with something Ive been itching for lately.

Heres my best shot, I'd like some comments and critiques:

Specialty Grains:
-.5lb Simpsons Black
-.5lb Simpsons Chocolate
-.5lb Dingermans Debittered Black
^steep at ~155* for 30mins

6lb Amber Malt Syrup (60 mins)
3.15lb Dark Malt Syrup (15 mins)
1lb Lactose (60 mins)

Hops:
1oz Williamette (60 mins)
1oz East Kent Golding (15 mins)

Other:
1tsp Irish Moss (15 mins)
2.5tbs Vanilla Extract (in secondary ferm)
5oz Corn Sugar (priming)

Yeast:
Wyeast 1945 NB Neobritannia as starter



Does this look alright? Im hoping for a thick, creamy stout with a vanilla base flavor, would like to add some hints of coffee in there too. Id like a high OG so I can get a good ABV out of her. Will the grains be enough, or could I throw a few beans in near the end of the boil? Also, will lactose alone be enough to smooth this out, or would something like Muntons KreamyX be needed to prime?

I think you're using too much 'black' grains in the recipe... Try using some roasted barley and a dark crystal malt... I would go with .5# chocolate, .25# roasted barley, and .25# dark crystal (120-150L)... I would also substitute a UK hop for Willamette, either Northdown or Target... You can keep the EKG hops for flavor/aroma, and move those to anywhere in the 5-15 minute boil time window.

I would also go with actual split and scraped vanilla beans instead of using extracts. With extracts, they typically use the cheapest of the cheap beans. When you get the beans yourself (easy to find high quality beans, online, for about $1/bean) you control what is used. Start with one bean, let it age for a week and then sample. If it needs more, give it another few days and sample again. If it goes two weeks and still needs more, add another bean, but be sure to sample every couple of days after that.

I wouldn't use the lactose at all in a stout (of any kind)... I had a honey porter come out really good after adding a pound of honey into secondary.

For priming, use an actual calculator to figure out how much sugar to use. Don't just go with the generic "5oz corn sugar for 5 gallons of brew"... Stouts should be carbonated lower than ales, so carb according to the brew being made. I carbed the honey porter on the low end of the scale (Beer Smith is great for this too) and it's been really good. Still plenty of head, even carbed around 1.75...

I don't see the yeast you're referencing anywhere on Wyeast's site... Are you sure about that one? Are you using a starter with it, or will it be the starter for something else?

Running this through Beer Smith, you're way over-shooting the SRM range... Changing the specialty grain bill as I outlined gets you solidly into the style range. Going with .5ounce of either Target or Northdown hops (60 minute boil) keeps you in the style IBU range. Going lower on the IBU's will enhance the perceived sweetness of the stout, and could also make lactose completely unnecessary.

I stay clear of using lactose in my brews mostly because I'm intolerant of it. For another thing, I fully believe you can get a great brew without using it. I was able to get some additional sweetness in my honey porter by priming with honey (1.25x the corn sugar weight to get the same CO2 volume number). Since I boiled the honey (all except 1 pound added to secondary) most of the sweetness from the honey was lost. Adding to secondary, and then priming with it, brought it back...

I do have a honey vanilla porter fermenting now. It's been sitting on a split, scraped, and bourbon soaked vanilla bean for just over a week now... I'll be sampling it within the next day or so... I let it ferment in primary for just over 3 weeks before racking to the bean...

Thanks for the thorough reply and input my friend.

Most of this recipe is what is included in the NB "Sweet Stout" kit. The only items Ive added were:

-.5# Simpsons black for a darker flavor
-3.15# Dark LME, for higher OG and ABV
-1oz EKG hops, influenced by a vanilla stout recipe I found
-2.5tbs Vanilla extract, for flavor


So basically, the NB kit is whats left.

I added the Black malt for its less-bitter flavor. NB writes " Ideal for sweet stout and robust porter". What would make you choose roasted barley instead? Would the bitterness be needed to balance the high amount of LME?

I read about using vanilla beans in secondary. Most people soak them in bourbon before putting them in the fermenter? I could do this, but I dont really like bourboned beers, and Im not sure how much of the bourbon flavor will come through. Do you ever rack onto unsoaked vanilla beans?

The yeast is what is listed to come with the kit on NBs website, other than that, I cant say much for it. I will make a small batch of water and DME in flask and add the yeast to make a starter a few days prior to brewing.

I'd really like to keep the lactose in this recipe. I really like the mouthfeel and overall texture it gives, and Im honestly just really excited to work with it. I really want to make a good batch, so I'd like keep working on this.

So do you think I should replace the grains that come in the kit? If I were to keep the chocolate and debittered black that came with it, what would you suggest adding to it instead of the black?

I'd like to make just one order and get everything from NB for this run. It doesnt look like they stock Target or Northdown. The Williamette comes with the kit. Again, worth keeping, or should I replace? Whats a similar hop for the style that NB stocks?

If you're just looking to use the LME to boost OG, use some extra light DME instead.

Once you start looking to tinker with recipe's, either someone else's or make your own, you really should start using some brewing software. I go with Beer Smith for my recipe's, so that I know what the product will come out like.

Going with, essentially, a full pound of black malt, for a 5 gallon batch, really is a lot. I wouldn't go with more than 8 ounces, total, in a recipe with 4 ounces being more preferred. Especially if you're not looking for a pucker.

Roasted barley:
"Imparts a red to deep brown color to beer, and very strong roasted flavor.
Use 2-4% in Brown ales to add a nutty flavor, or 3-10% in Porters and Stouts for coffee flavor." With an SRM of around 300, it will darken the brew, but will also give more flavor depth. Right now, with just black and chocolate malts in your grain profile, it seems more of a one note brew. I go for things with more rounded flavor profiles.

I have a stout recipe (an imperial stout, but the grain bill can be adapted to a sweet stout) that calls for:
4 ounces Dark Crystal
4 ounces Roasted Barley
4 ounces Chocolate Malt
4 ounces Black

I pulled the Black from the recipe (don't care for it too much) and just increased the Chocolate Malt to 8 ounces, to have the same amount of grain. I could have split it between the other grains too, if I wanted to.

Looking up a sweet stout in the Joy of Home Brewing book, it lists the specialty grains as:
1# Crystal Malt
.25# Black Roasted Malt
.25# Roasted Barley
Yeast type: Ale

I would also really get confirmation on the yeast number they list, since Wyeast doesn't list it (at all) online... It could be a typo, or it could be a different brand yeast all together.

For a starter, unless this is over 1.060 (like around 1.070+) it's not as needed. Just let the smack pack swell up fully before you start brewing and you'll be fine. If the brew does have an OG of over 1.060-1.070 (or higher) then make a starter (about .25/1.5oz cup extra light DME to ~1 quart water, boiled briefly).

BTW, Dark Crystal malt (120L) would be a better choice, in my opinion...

On John Palmer's site it lists black as:
Black Patent Malt 580L This is the blackest of the black. It must be used sparingly, generally less than a half pound per 5 gallons. It contributes a roasted charcoal flavor that can actually be quite unpleasant if used in excess. It is useful for contributing color and/or setting a "limit" on the sweetness of other beer styles using a lot of caramel malt; one or two ounces is useful for this purpose.

Read up on the different specialty malts so that you know what they will do to your brew before you start tossing them in (in random amounts)... http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-1.html

For the vanilla soaking, you can use vodka too. I used about 2 ounces for the soak. I'll know shortly if that has impacted the flavor at all. I kind of doubt that 2 ounces (or even 4 ounces) would impact a dark brew enough to be noticed. The soak was to sanitize the bean before adding it, that's all. I'm not planning on soaking the bean when I add it to the batch of mead I'm making, since it's around 14% ABV already, and should be able to kill anything hitching a ride on the bean...

For hops, it really has more to do with what you're looking to get in the brew. I wouldn't lock myself into just one source for any ingredient. Look at Farmhouse Brewing Supply (http://farmhousebrewingsupply.com/) for really good prices on hop pellets. Getting them in 4 ounce packets means you can measure out how much you want/need to use and then save the rest... I vacuum sealed mine back up after using them on the first brewing day (keep them in the fridge)... I'm using more today (1/2 ounce Target for bittering, 1 ounce Fuggles for flavor/aroma), and will simply reseal the bag once I've extracted what I need (I have a FoodSaver vacuum packer)...

Before you mess around with any store's recipe, I would suggest talking with them about the changes you're looking to make. I did that at the LHBS for the first couple of brews I was basing on their kits. We would add/replace items more to my tastes than what was in the kit. Kits are usually for the people who either don't want to mess around with recipe's, or are just starting out and need a few solid brews under their belt to be confident in their own ability to make good beer. Once you've gone past that point, you'll need someone with good knowledge to bounce your changes against, or to help pull you back to reality with your recipe.

Thanks again for another great response. I broke down and purchased beersmith. Glad I finally did so. So heres my new recipe, let me know what you guys think:

Specialty Grains:
-.5# Chocolate
-.5# Roasted barely
-.5# Crystal 120L
^Steep @ 155* for 30 mins

-6# Dark LME (60 mins)
-1# Dark DME (15 mins)
-1# Lactose (15 mins)

-1tsp Irish Moss (15 mins)

-1oz Northdown hops (60 mins)
-1oz EKG hops (15 mins)

-1 pack Wyeast Irish Ale

-2 split Madagascar vanilla beans in secondary (will adjust to taste)


Is this starting to look better? I dont want to throw in too much, but I'd like to get a little more of a pronounced coffee flavor to calm down the possibly too sweet vanilla/lactose combo. Could I soak some coffee beans in bourbon with my vanilla and toss them in secondary?

I plan on brewing the above revised recipe in the next day or two, depending on how my starter looks. Any final considerations or the new recipe?

I would do one bean at a time in secondary. One was more than enough for the Honey Vanilla Porter I have going (already pulled it off of the bean have 3/4 ounce of oak chips in it now).

You could go with lite DME instead of the dark, and add it at the same time as the LME...

For the temp of the grain steep, be a little flexible there... It's not going to be the end of the world if you go over/under by a little... I would try to be in the 152-156F range... You could also leave them in while you start bringing it up to the boil, pulling them out after you clear the 170F mark (or right around there, I wouldn't let them go over that).

When did you make your starter? Be prepared for that yeast to take off like a rocket. I had to use a blow-off tube the first time I used it. I pitched it into the brew after about 24 hours in the starter, and it was post-lag in under 2 hours. It was blowing foam through the airlock in about 6 hours (under 7)... It was rocking the carboy (literally) for almost two days before settling down.

If you want to minimize the trub you'll have, use a hop bag (for the hops obviously)... It will seriously cut down on the trub in the fermenter/primary. The bags are reusable, so it's more of a one time purchase deal (or maybe once every few dozen batches)...

I already purchased the the dark DME. I could replace it with light DME if I use the dark DME to make my starter. Think that would be ok?

Ive previously left the grains in til 170*. I thought this time I'd try to be a little more exact or proficient. Id like to bring it up to about 155*, and put in in the preheated oven to try to maintain the temp.

I'll make my starter tonight. Im available to brew any evening this week, so I'll let the starter determine when I brew.

You can use any DME you want for the starter, just make sure you make it with a lower gravity than the target brew...

The LHBS I visit has 3# bags of LME for less (per pound) than if you buy 3 1# bags... Next time I need to get LME, I plan on getting the 3# bag, and then split it up into smaller bags (vacuum sealed/packed for freshness)... That way, I'll be able to use it for starters, or whatever I need to. I'll probably make some as 2 ounce bags, some 4 ounce and at least one or two full pound bags. Vacuum sealed, they should last a long time... Love using the FoodSaver I have...

If you've been getting good results from leaving the grain in until close to 170F, then I would continue to do so... If not, then pull it out when you think you should. I would just write down the temp that you pulled them out at, so that you have it recorded. Recording details like that can help you adjust the recipe, and your methods to get better, and more reliable, results.

Maybe I'll do that then, use the dark for my starter and the light in the wort.

The closest LHBS to me is about an hour away, so its hardly local. I'll shop there when its convenient, but otherwise I order my ingredients online. I dont have a vacuum sealer, but would like to get one this year. Until then, I dont want to order too many extra ingredients, but Im with you, any way to save a few bucks is worth it.