To Mash or not to Mash, That is the Question

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Optimus_Pwn

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Hey guys, so I'm starting my second batch of beer. My first batch was a brown ale, and now I am preparing to brew a dry Irish Stout. I'm going to brew it tomorrow morning, and I have a question concerning it. The recipe requires a bunch of normal malted grains, but then I also have 8oz of flaked barley. My question is, should I do a partial mash of the flaked barley? From what I've heard, flaked barley won't contribute much if I just put it in with the rest of the grains as is. If anything, it will just contribute starches that cannot be digested by the yeast, or so I've heard. So, should I do a partial mash? If so, how exactly does one do a mash, what is a mash...Sorry, I'm a noob at brewing, and would very much appreciate some input.

THANKS!!!
 
if you are not mashing the other malted grains , what are you doing with them? And mashing is basically soaking the grains in hot water for a period of time to extract the sugars from them.
 
if you are not mashing the other malted grains , what are you doing with them? And mashing is basically soaking the grains in hot water for a period of time to extract the sugars from them.

I'm sorry, maybe I should have clarified. I'm not sure what the exact name is of what I do to my grains. I soak them in water at 155 F for half an hour. Then I add the liquid malt extract, then the hops, etc. Is this mashing?
 
I'm a first timer too, but that sounds like a PM or a specialty grain recipe. So just do the partial like the recipe ask. Your not doing a "full" mash due to the fact your adding the fermentable sugars when you add the LME.
 
I'm a first timer too, but that sounds like a PM or a specialty grain recipe. So just do the partial like the recipe ask. Your not doing a "full" mash due to the fact your adding the fermentable sugars when you add the LME.

Oh wow, so I guess with my first batch I actually did a partial mash. I soak my grains in the water at 155 for half an hour or so, and then I add the LME. After that I add hops, gypsum powder, and irish moss. I then boil for an hour, and in he last 5 minutes I add .5 oz of hops. Then I strain everything. So mashing is just soaking the grains in hot water? I thought it was something else I guess. Tomorrow I will just add the flaked barely with the rest of the grains unless anybody says differently. Thanks guys, as I said, very new to brewing, and loving it.
 
I just completed a Dry Stout recipe that had flaked barley in it. It was only my third brew and I wasn't sure if I should go for the extract with steeping specialty grains or the partial mash.

From listening to the episode about dry stouts on the old Jamil Shows he said you can get some benefits of the flaked barley with just a steep but in the end I ended up going with a partial mash. I did the stovetop version and I actually hit my OG right on.

If possible I'd say go for the partial mash, it was sort of exciting.

The main difference is that the steeping is 155 degrees for a half hour but the partial mash is something like 155 degrees for an hour then another 10 minutes in your sparge water.
 
There is mashing and there is steeping. The difference between the two is enzymes. If you aren't using a base malt to provide enzymes, then you are steeping. If you have enough base malt to convert the starches in your grains, then you are mashing. Assuming you are using proper volumes, temps and times of course. If you go though all the motions of mashing, but don't have base malt, then it's just steeping, even if you're hitting temps and sparging and everything. Gotta have the enzymes to mash.
 
There is mashing and there is steeping. The difference between the two is enzymes. If you aren't using a base malt to provide enzymes, then you are steeping. If you have enough base malt to convert the starches in your grains, then you are mashing. Assuming you are using proper volumes, temps and times of course. If you go though all the motions of mashing, but don't have base malt, then it's just steeping, even if you're hitting temps and sparging and everything. Gotta have the enzymes to mash.

Does this mean if we are steeping but have some base malt in there that we are basically mashing? Your explanation is the simplest and best I've seen, there was a difference that I couldn't wrap my head around until now.
 
Does this mean if we are steeping but have some base malt in there that we are basically mashing?

Not necessarily. He said volume is a part of it too, and temps are extremely important.

1) To have the enzymes from the base malts be able to convert the starches to sugars effectively in the other grains that need to be mashed but don't have the diastatic power to convert themselves, the mash must not be too thick nor too thin. A proper mash consistency is between 1 to 2 quarts of water per pound of grain.

2) You also must have enough base malt.

3) The temp must be right for enzyme activity, and depending on whether you want more fermentable vs. non-fermentable sugars the typical single infusion mash temp is 150 to 158F, held until the starches have been converted (which can be tested with iodine).
 
Not necessarily. He said volume is a part of it too, and temps are extremely important.

1) To have the enzymes from the base malts be able to convert the starches to sugars effectively in the other grains that need to be mashed but don't have the diastatic power to convert themselves, the mash must not be too thick nor too thin. A proper mash consistency is between 1 to 2 quarts of water per pound of grain.

2) You also must have enough base malt.

3) The temp must be right for enzyme activity, and depending on whether you want more fermentable vs. non-fermentable sugars the typical single infusion mash temp is 150 to 158F, held until the starches have been converted (which can be tested with iodine).
Does this mean if we are steeping but have some base malt in there that we are basically mashing?
Basically yes. The process is pretty forgiving. It is pretty easy to be within the above range.

BTW, Groo, where in Torrance are you? :rockin:
 
The temp must be right for enzyme activity, and depending on whether you want more fermentable vs. non-fermentable sugars the typical single infusion mash temp is 150 to 158F, held until the starches have been converted (which can be tested with iodine).

AHH! Crap this is actually sounding more difficult as I am reading this. I am going to stick to the box beers this winter probably, then when the weather breaks I'd like to do some of the mash, partial mash, AG, space travel and magic stuff. But damn, what is a good book to read that covers this stuff from front to back? This site is great, but I think I also need a numbered 'how to' also.
 
There is mashing and there is steeping. The difference between the two is enzymes. If you aren't using a base malt to provide enzymes, then you are steeping. If you have enough base malt to convert the starches in your grains, then you are mashing. Assuming you are using proper volumes, temps and times of course. If you go though all the motions of mashing, but don't have base malt, then it's just steeping, even if you're hitting temps and sparging and everything. Gotta have the enzymes to mash.

Let me list all the grains:
7lbs Light LME
4oz Chocolate Malt
1lb Roasted Barley
4oz Black Malt
4oz Wheat Malt
8oz Flaked Barley

So, I guess I haven't done a partial mash because I have never even used anything called sparge water. If I just steep all the grains at 155 will I get a large amount of unfermentables?
 
Let me list all the grains:
7lbs Light LME
4oz Chocolate Malt
1lb Roasted Barley
4oz Black Malt
4oz Wheat Malt
8oz Flaked Barley

So, I guess I haven't done a partial mash because I have never even used anything called sparge water. If I just steep all the grains at 155 will I get a large amount of unfermentables?

No, you won't have a "large amount of unfermentables". You don't have any base grain in there, except for 4 ounces of wheat malt. Don't worry about it- just follow the recipe directions and it'll be fine.

You don't have to use sparge water to mash- you must use base grains to mash. You must have conversion for it to be a mash. You don't have to sparge to make it a mash- that's just "rinsing" of the grain.

A mash is when you have base malts that need to be converted from starches to fermentable sugars. A precise amount of water, heat, and time is given to a precise amount of grain, so that the enzymes can convert the starches to sugars. In grains like chocolate malt, crystal malt, etc, the grain was treated at the factory to already have the sugars available without having to mash them. They can be steeped, and conversion is NOT an issue.
 
It's not as hard as it sounds. As for volume, just add up your grains and multiply how many lbs you have by 1.25 and that's how many quarts of water to use.

Temperature is a little trickier, but with practice it gets easier. You want to heat up the water a bit warmer than your planned mash temp since adding the grain will cool it down. Have some extra water on the stove for adjusting if your temp ends up too low and some in the fridge if it's too high.

Sparge water? That's just a fancy name for "rinse". After you drain off your wort at the end of your mash, you just add some more hot water (a good use for that extra water you had waiting to adjust your mash temp) and then drain it off again. That just gets added to your first runnings in the boil pot.

If you're doing a big all grain batch, there's tons of techniques to sparging but if you're just doing a small partial mash of a few lbs you can just dump in your sparge water, stir for a bit and drain it off. I just poured my mash and sparge out trough a big kitchen strainer into my boil pot.

Temperature control: This is really easy. DeathBrewer likes to do it on the stove top and has a great tutorial on his method if you search for it. I like to use the oven. As you're getting your mash ready just turn the oven on it's lowest setting. When you get your temp set in the mash, turn the oven off, put a lid on your mash pot and stick it in the oven. The residual heat will keep the pot warm for a long time.
 
Thanks guys. I'm brewing it right now. I just added all the grains together, and I'm glad that it'll work out. Anyways, what is the advantage of grain brewing as opposed to extract? Is it just a more authentic way, or does it allow you more control over the final flavor?

Thanks guys
 
As you move to partial mash and into all grain brewing, it really opens up your options. There's only so much you can do with extract. I do partial mash brews with lots of grains and just enough extract to make up for the top up water (I partial boil too). If you have trouble getting really fresh extract it can also lend to off flavors in your beer. Using less extract and getting more of your fermentables from grain helps with that a lot.
 
As you move to partial mash and into all grain brewing, it really opens up your options. There's only so much you can do with extract. I do partial mash brews with lots of grains and just enough extract to make up for the top up water (I partial boil too). If you have trouble getting really fresh extract it can also lend to off flavors in your beer. Using less extract and getting more of your fermentables from grain helps with that a lot.

Yes, I agree. I like Vienna malt, for example- and as far as I know, it doesn't come in an extract. Corn, rice, oats, etc, are easy to use in a mash also.

The other big advantage for AG is that it's cheaper. By a lot.
 
Oh wow, so I guess with my first batch I actually did a partial mash. I soak my grains in the water at 155 for half an hour or so, and then I add the LME. After that I add hops, gypsum powder, and irish moss. I then boil for an hour, and in he last 5 minutes I add .5 oz of hops. Then I strain everything. So mashing is just soaking the grains in hot water? I thought it was something else I guess. Tomorrow I will just add the flaked barely with the rest of the grains unless anybody says differently. Thanks guys, as I said, very new to brewing, and loving it.

You do remove the grains before you boil? It's not clear.
 
AHH! Crap this is actually sounding more difficult as I am reading this. I am going to stick to the box beers this winter probably, then when the weather breaks I'd like to do some of the mash, partial mash, AG, space travel and magic stuff. But damn, what is a good book to read that covers this stuff from front to back? This site is great, but I think I also need a numbered 'how to' also.


Well after a few definitions and reading the ins and outs this doesn't seem as bad. I'm picking up a Turkey fryer Monday (CL, almost new, $25) so all I have left to do is modify the base to comfortably and safely hold a keggle. Tuesday's progect. Hell, I might be mashing by the end of the week :)
 
You do remove the grains before you boil? It's not clear.

Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, I remove the grains before I boil, or else you get tannins or something. I actually brewed my dry irish stout today. I added all the grains, including the flaked barley, into the wort, for half an hour at 155. My OG was 1.061, when the recipe said that it should be 1.050-1.052. Did I mess something up?
 
My OG was 1.061, when the recipe said that it should be 1.050-1.052. Did I mess something up?

Did you shake the heck out of the fermenter to mix up all the wort really well after topping off to your finished volume? If not, incomplete mixing might cause the reading to be off. Another thing is the temp of the sample, did you cool it to 60F? Your hydrometer is likely calibrated to 60F. You can take reading at a higher temp, but then you have to correct it (for instance if you take the sample at 70F, add 0.001 to your OG, if at 80F add 0.003ish). The correction tables can be found in "How to Brew", by Palmer. Be aware though that many people don't trust the correction table for temps above 80 to 90F. It's best if you cool to 60F. The other really important thing to the OG is your volume. For example, if you think you have 5 gallons, but really there is only 4.5 gallons, then your OG measurement will be off be quite a bit (0.005 if you're talking about a 1.050 beer with that example).

Basically though with a recipe that's made up primarily of LME or DME (without a large proportion of grains in a partial mash or steeped), as long as you make sure your finished volume is what it should be, you can trust the OG that's stated in the recipe.
 
You remove the grains after the period of time you decided you need to either steep (no enzymes) or mash (enzymes). You rinse them (sparge). Then, you either throw them away, save them for making soup or quickbread or doggie treats, or compost them.

They are edible and have a lot of nutrition in them still -- just a bunch of their starch was turned into sugars. They are actually a low-carb alternative to whole grain, if you are the health conscious type. ;)
 
AHH! Crap this is actually sounding more difficult as I am reading this. I am going to stick to the box beers this winter probably, then when the weather breaks I'd like to do some of the mash, partial mash, AG, space travel and magic stuff. But damn, what is a good book to read that covers this stuff from front to back? This site is great, but I think I also need a numbered 'how to' also.

[BIAB evangilist warning]
It really is easy to go all grain and mash yourself, you can use the Death Brewer method. It is just as easy as steeping grains. Just be sure you have the grains milled 1st of course:
DB All-Grain method

You can even make it slightly easier and do a thin mash like the Aussie's do it and not even worry with the sparge, etc:
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4650&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0/fa

There are a few downsides, but they are minor.



  1. The Aussie method results in slightly different amounts of the sugar types created b/c of the thin mash, I don't know the details but this can limit your recipes if you are using 30% wheat or so. Maybe someone else here knows them and will elaborate.
  2. High gravity 5 gallon batches require lots of grain, which can be really difficult to lift when soaked. I usually do a half batch when I do high gravity so its not a big deal for me.
  3. There is a bit more trub in the fermenter than normal AG brewing, but I don't see how this is a big deal. I am still able to wash my yeast for reuse just fine

If you can steep, you can mash. It really is easy and I don't see why BIAB is not more popular.

I tell people I meet that I do all-grain and they are like, "well I would do all grain but I can't afford the equipment" or "I don't have the time to modify a cooler to....". When I tell them the only extra equipment I have is a bag they say, "wow, I've never heard of that" or "I didn't know you could do that" and "does that really work?".

Even the guys at the LHBS stores that I a have met haven't tried it and know very little about it.
 
I think I have the gist of it between here and howtobrew.com. Does anyone know if the AG kits from Austin or Brewmasters Warehouse need any other ingredients? Do they come complete?
 
I think I have the gist of it between here and howtobrew.com. Does anyone know if the AG kits from Austin or Brewmasters Warehouse need any other ingredients? Do they come complete?

Yes, they are complete. They have all the grain and hops you need. They will even crush the grains for you, just make sure you have it checked "yes" to crush the grain on the order form. AHS' site has that option when you're looking at the kits, Brewmaster's Warehouse has that has an option in the end, when you're checking over your order. The "Crush Grains" is left of the place where you put in your zip code.

The kits come with hops and grain, and you select the yeast you want.
 
If you forget to get them crushed, you can crush them yourself with a rolling pin. It takes a while, though... and remember, "crushed" is not "pulverized into dust". ;)
 
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