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nyer

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I'm finally ready to start switching over to an electric brutus type system using 3 keggles. I'm thinking a hot water tank with a 5500 220 element, a boil kettle with a 5500 watt 220 element and a rims system with a 110 element (not sure what size yet). Then 1 want 2 pumps and the controls. I want to be able to heat water for a second batch while the first is boiling so I could be running both 5500 watt elements at the same time. I think I need to do a 60 amp 220 GFI spa panel in my garage to run both 220 elements. Can I plan to use a regular 110 outlet in my garage to power the 110 rims and 2 pumps? (changed to a GFI outlet or GFI breaker for the 110 in the garage?) Or, would the spa panel be able to power everything? I have friends and relatives who are electricians at my disposal but they want to know what I'm planning before they start looking at what needs to be done.
 
60 amps will handle 2 5500w elements on at the same time. I don't think you will need 2 of them in the HLT tank, I have one and it heats up plenty fast.
 
Walker said:
5500W is a LOT of power for the HLT.

Are you making back-to-back 10 gallon batches?
Click to expand...

Be sweet for heating cleaning water. A keggle HLT full of hot oxy water makes cleaning up a LOT easier.

I'm limited to 4000 watts in mine.
 
I would like the ability to do back to back 10 gallon batches if possible but more than likely it would be a 10 and a 5 or 5 and 5. I would rather not discover later that I needed more power. I'm still trying to figure out exactly what I need. What size elements are recommended for the HLT, RIMS tube and boil kettle for doing up to 10 gallon batches?
 
I have a one kettle system in the winter with my HLT becoming my kettle after sparging from my cooler. 12 gallon batchs, 5500w is nice for heating water and coming to a boil! 55% duty cycle keeps it boiling nicely once it reaches the boil.
 
Cpt_Kirks said:
Be sweet for heating cleaning water. A keggle HLT full of hot oxy water makes cleaning up a LOT easier.

I'm limited to 4000 watts in mine.
Click to expand...

Even if you had only 2000W in the HLT, you'd be able to heat up 8 gallons of water in about an hour. Since that heating could be going on during the 60 minute boil of the wort, there's plenty of power with just a small element.

but, I guess it might be nice to have a LOT of power in the HLT so that you could have your second batch's mash actually done around the time you were finished chilling the 1st batch.
 
I would like the ability to heat water fast for 2 reasons, my well water is between 40-55 degrees year round and I have no patience. I'm working on the patience problem.
 
The part I like with 5500w in the HLT is that I can put in 8 gallons of room temp water and be at mash in temp about the time I have my grain ground and ready for the MT.
 
I'm nowhere near a final design yet but I don't think you can have too much power. The key is making sure you can energize the vessel/elements that are most important to moving the brew day along but without overloading. Some thoughts I've had were running two 4500w elements in the HLT where they didn't necessarily have to be energized together at the same time. It's just that the controls are the most expensive part of the solution.

Faster Strike Heating - Run 2 x 4500w and heat about 5 gallons of strike water in 8 minutes.

or...

Run 1 x 5500w in the HLT but also recirc. that water through a 1500w RIMS to heat 5 gallons of strike in about 11 minutes. The benefit is that the RIMS will already be under control so no extra control needed. This would also be the state during mashing and sparge heating.

During a long fly sparge, you have to maintain sparge water temp and then also speed things along by energizing the BK once the element is wet. However, that doesn't necessarily mean the HLT/BK elements have to do the work. If you're running a 1500w RIMS tube, you can probably use that to bump the sparge temp up a couple degrees if the temp slipped a bit.

4500 is more than enough in a BK because you're going from 170 to 212 and once you're there, it takes much less to keep it going.

In any case, ended up installing a 50amp spa panel.
 
Bobby_M said:
I'm nowhere near a final design yet but I don't think you can have too much power. The key is making sure you can energize the vessel/elements that are most important to moving the brew day along but without overloading. Some thoughts I've had were running two 4500w elements in the HLT where they didn't necessarily have to be energized together at the same time. It's just that the controls are the most expensive part of the solution.

Faster Strike Heating - Run 2 x 4500w and heat about 5 gallons of strike water in 8 minutes.

or...

Run 1 x 5500w in the HLT but also recirc. that water through a 1500w RIMS to heat 5 gallons of strike in about 11 minutes. The benefit is that the RIMS will already be under control so no extra control needed. This would also be the state during mashing and sparge heating.

During a long fly sparge, you have to maintain sparge water temp and then also speed things along by energizing the BK once the element is wet. However, that doesn't necessarily mean the HLT/BK elements have to do the work. If you're running a 1500w RIMS tube, you can probably use that to bump the sparge temp up a couple degrees if the temp slipped a bit.

4500 is more than enough in a BK because you're going from 170 to 212 and once you're there, it takes much less to keep it going.

In any case, ended up installing a 50amp spa panel.
Click to expand...

I was looking at the 50 amp panel but I may go with the 60 just in case. Trying to keep track everything that needs to be done is hard, I am in the process of making a list of what I need for each part of this build. Theres so much it makes me think it's not worth the conversion from propane.

I know I will need another sight glass from you at some point, I don't know how I got by without one. Do you know of a thermocouple that will thread into the tee on yours?
 
Walker said:
but, I guess it might be nice to have a LOT of power in the HLT so that you could have your second batch's mash actually done around the time you were finished chilling the 1st batch.
Click to expand...

Yes. You need to have a beastly element in the HLT because that is where most of the energy gets transferred. It's a bottleneck any way you look at it. Starting your first brew, doing a concurrent batch, etc. The wort coming out of the MLT is already 150F....so you need a less powerful element in the BK....you just need to maintain a boil. 5500W is overkill unless you're doing huge batches....mine is only energized 35-40% of the time in manual mode. Insulation is also important....your times decrease and so do your power requirements.
 
nyer said:
I would like the ability to heat water fast for 2 reasons, my well water is between 40-55 degrees year round and I have no patience. I'm working on the patience problem.
Click to expand...

working on the same "issue" ... so I have the hlt (a rubbermaid cooler) on a timer, so when I come down in the AM, I can start the mash right away (I try to grind grains night before .. so much waiting...try to split up the chores ...want the process to be fun and reasonably free of tedium..
 
I started reading up on a herms system and I'm still a little confused on how one works. It looks to me like I could get rid of the rims element and electronics and basically have just two tanks each with a 220 element. If I understand this correctly you would use your boil kettle to heat the strike water while heating your sparge water in the hlt. You transfer the strike water to the mash tun and mash in. Then you would recirculate your mash through the herms coil in the hlt while keeping your sparge water in the hlt at your target mash temp, lets say 152. Now after one hour you would turn up the hlt to your mash out temp to around 170. Once your mash hits your temp you start fly sparging with the hlt and drain into your boil kettle. Is this correct?
 
nyer said:
I started reading up on a herms system and I'm still a little confused on how one works. It looks to me like I could get rid of the rims element and electronics and basically have just two tanks each with a 220 element. If I understand this correctly you would use your boil kettle to heat the strike water while heating your sparge water in the hlt. You transfer the strike water to the mash tun and mash in. Then you would recirculate your mash through the herms coil in the hlt while keeping your sparge water in the hlt at your target mash temp, lets say 152. Now after one hour you would turn up the hlt to your mash out temp to around 170. Once your mash hits your temp you start fly sparging with the hlt and drain into your boil kettle. Is this correct?
Click to expand...

There's a ton of ways to get things done, but that's one perfectly good way of doing it right there.

I use just a single electric kettle for mine, but you wouldn't want to do that since you have a desire for back to back batches. I can't do that on mine unless I completely serialize the two batches.

You mentioned earlier that back-to-back batches would probably be a 10 followed by a 5, you could still pull this off easily. Your second batch becomes like my system; one available e-kettle and a MLT.

You put all of the water for the second batch into the MLT and start heating it up, targetting about 8*F over the mash temp. When it's hot, drop the PID setting down to mash temp and immediately pump the over-heated mash water into the MLT with the grain and start circulating through the coil. The grain will absorb heat from both the stike water as well as the remaining water in the HLT and will stabilize at the target mash temp.

In fact, now that I think about it, you could do the second batch as a 10 gallon, too. The only issue is that all of the water for a 10 gallon batch might not fit in the kettle at the same time. In that case, just put the excess water in the mash tun and overheat the HLT water a couple extra degrees (+10*F over instead of +8*F like I said above). When you mash, then you add the hot water to the cold in the MLT and do the whole recirculation thing and let it even out.
 
I went with a 60A spa panel from HD for $69, only $10 more than the 50A. 60A gives a little more head room for running (2) 5500W elements plus 2 pumps and various controls, plus a little extra for future improvements.

From the spa panel, running 6/3 romex to the brew rig panel and using some DIN rail mounted finger safe power distribution blocks from automation direct to split off (2) 220V 30A circuits for the heaters and a 110V 10A for everything else.

One 5500W element can take 13 gallons of my 60 deg ground water to boil in about 55 minutes in a 20 gallon pot. That an ave temp rise of about 2.5-3 degrees/minute. Thats pretty fast.

Also, I figured that electricity cost me about $0.55 vs about $10 in propane!
 
dtfeld said:
I went with a 60A spa panel from HD for $69, only $10 more than the 50A. 60A gives a little more head room for running (2) 5500W elements plus 2 pumps and various controls, plus a little extra for future improvements.

From the spa panel, running 6/3 romex to the brew rig panel and using some DIN rail mounted finger safe power distribution blocks from automation direct to split off (2) 220V 30A circuits for the heaters and a 110V 10A for everything else.
Click to expand...

So... your brewery panel is hard-wired to the spa panel? No plugs/receptacles?
 
Walker said:
There's a ton of ways to get things done, but that's one perfectly good way of doing it right there.

I use just a single electric kettle for mine, but you wouldn't want to do that since you have a desire for back to back batches. I can't do that on mine unless I completely serialize the two batches.

You mentioned earlier that back-to-back batches would probably be a 10 followed by a 5, you could still pull this off easily. Your second batch becomes like my system; one available e-kettle and a MLT.

You put all of the water for the second batch into the MLT and start heating it up, targetting about 8*F over the mash temp. When it's hot, drop the PID setting down to mash temp and immediately pump the over-heated mash water into the MLT with the grain and start circulating through the coil. The grain will absorb heat from both the stike water as well as the remaining water in the HLT and will stabilize at the target mash temp.

In fact, now that I think about it, you could do the second batch as a 10 gallon, too. The only issue is that all of the water for a 10 gallon batch might not fit in the kettle at the same time. In that case, just put the excess water in the mash tun and overheat the HLT water a couple extra degrees (+10*F over instead of +8*F like I said above). When you mash, then you add the hot water to the cold in the MLT and do the whole recirculation thing and let it even out.
Click to expand...

I'm leaning hard towards the herms now, if I can eliminate the cost of the rims and use less amps it seems like a no brainer. The rims and electronics to run it seem like a large part of the cost of going electric. A 60 amp spa panel should run 2 5500 watt (or 5500 and 4500) elements and 2 pumps and electronics shouldn't it?
 
nyer said:
I'm leaning hard towards the herms now, if I can eliminate the cost of the rims and use less amps it seems like a no brainer. The rims and electronics to run it seem like a large part of the cost of going electric. A 60 amp spa panel should run 2 5500 watt (or 5500 and 4500) elements and 2 pumps and electronics shouldn't it?
Click to expand...

The amp needs of the electronics are almost negligible, so you really just need to be concerned about the elements and pumps. Just count the electronics as 1 amp all combined.

I think pumps are (roughly) 1.5A, so if you have 2 running at the same time, there's 3 amps gone.

A 5500W needs (5500 divided by 240) = 22.9 amps. Call it 23.

So, if you had two of those and two pumps and the electronics, you'd be at 50A.

You are under the load limit, but it's often suggested to not continuously run things at 80% or more of your load limit, so the 60A breaker (following that 80% rule) gives you 48A of continuous draw.

Honestly, I think you would be just fine with the 60A continuously pulling 50A. If you're worried about it, you could back off from 5500W in the HLT and still not cause yourself any issues. Dropping to 4500W in the HLT gives you a total load of about 46 amps.
 
Walker:

Yes, the brew panel will be hardwired for incoming power. The reason is that 60A plugs/recepticles/power cord is limited or non existant. The power distribution blocks are rated to 175A allow me to split of the power into up to 4 more managable amounts and protect them with circuit breakers.

Once I'm down to 30A circuits, I can use NEMA 30A plugs/recepticles and 10 guage power cord to run the power to individual heating elements.

Obviously, mobility was not a design consideration.
 
Walker said:
The amp needs of the electronics are almost negligible, so you really just need to be concerned about the elements and pumps. Just count the electronics as 1 amp all combined.

I think pumps are (roughly) 1.5A, so if you have 2 running at the same time, there's 3 amps gone.

A 5500W needs (5500 divided by 240) = 22.9 amps. Call it 23.

So, if you had two of those and two pumps and the electronics, you'd be at 50A.

You are under the load limit, but it's often suggested to not continuously run things at 80% or more of your load limit, so the 60A breaker (following that 80% rule) gives you 48A of continuous draw.

Honestly, I think you would be just fine with the 60A continuously pulling 50A. If you're worried about it, you could back off from 5500W in the HLT and still not cause yourself any issues. Dropping to 4500W in the HLT gives you a total load of about 46 amps.
Click to expand...

I could easily drop to a 4500 in the BK.

I think I'm still missing something. I will need a pid, ssr and thermocouple to control the boil kettle and 1 set for the HLT. Won't I still need a thermocouple in the "out" side of the herms coil to read the mash temp? Is this as simple as just having a thermocouple mounted in the herms "out" coil and one in the HLT (mounted in the side somewhere). I would start with the HLT thermo hooked up to heat the sparge water to temp. and then after filling the mashtun I would unplug the thermo from the HLT and plug it into the out side of the herms to read mash temp and to read mashout temp? Does that make sense??
 
nyer said:
I could easily drop to a 4500 in the BK.
Click to expand...
I'd personally leave the BK at 5500 so that you can boil those 10 gallon batches, and drop the HLT down to 4500.

nyer said:
I think I'm still missing something. I will need a pid, ssr and thermocouple to control the boil kettle and 1 set for the HLT. Won't I still need a thermocouple in the "out" side of the herms coil to read the mash temp? Is this as simple as just having a thermocouple mounted in the herms "out" coil and one in the HLT (mounted in the side somewhere). I would start with the HLT thermo hooked up to heat the sparge water to temp. and then after filling the mashtun I would unplug the thermo from the HLT and plug it into the out side of the herms to read mash temp and to read mashout temp? Does that make sense??
Click to expand...

HERMS brewers are in two camps on probe placement. Some put the probe in the HLT. Some put the probe at the output of the coil.

Those that put the probe in the HLT learn to offset any temp difference between mash temp and HLT water temp. So, for example, they program the PID for 154 if they want to actually mash at 152. This differential varies from system to system.

With the probe at the coil output, you just put in the mash temp you want.

Either way you chose to go, you will only need one of the two.

I prefer putting in on the coil output, and here's how I handle heating water to a set temp:

When heating up the water at the start, I pump the water from the HLT through the coil (which is sitting in the HLT) and then output it right back into the HLT. When I hit the temp, I then jigger some valves and start pumping the mash tun contents through coil (which is still sitting in the HLT) and back into mash tun.
 
Walker said:
I'd personally leave the BK at 5500 so that you can boil those 10 gallon batches, and drop the HLT down to 4500.



HERMS brewers are in two camps on probe placement. Some put the probe in the HLT. Some put the probe at the output of the coil.

Those that put the probe in the HLT learn to offset any temp difference between mash temp and HLT water temp. So, for example, they program the PID for 154 if they want to actually mash at 152. This differential varies from system to system.

With the probe at the coil output, you just put in the mash temp you want.

Either way you chose to go, you will only need one of the two.

I prefer putting in on the coil output, and here's how I handle heating water to a set temp:

When heating up the water at the start, I pump the water from the HLT through the coil (which is sitting in the HLT) and then output it right back into the HLT. When I hit the temp, I then jigger some valves and start pumping the mash tun contents through coil (which is still sitting in the HLT) and back into mash tun.
Click to expand...

That makes sense. I'm going to be using hoses and disconnects and for me it seems like it would be easier to have a thermocouple in the output of the coil and one in the HLT. Is there any reason why I couldn't do it this way and then just plug in whatever thermocouple I'm using at the time? HLT for heating sparge water and then output to herms coil when I'm holding mash temp? It should only add the cost of a thermocouple if I use the connectors.
 
Oh yeah, thanks for all the help, I finally feel like I might actually get this thing built.
 
Sure, you could use two probes if you want to and either swap which one is plugged in or get a 3-pole double throw switch that you could flip to select which probe was actually feeding into the PID. (The switch idea is probably only do-able with RTD probes and not with thermocouples).

The only potential issue would be the error of the probes. They usually have some small static error on them, which you can easily correct for in the PID programming. My probe is off by about 1.5 degrees, so I put that into the PID and then things are peachy.

If your two probes have different error values, then when you switch from one to the other, you would either have to adjust the error offset in the PID programming, or just deal with one being off a little and manually account for the error when using that probe.
 
This is a mock up of how I plan to bring 60A @220VAV into and distribute in my brew panel (right to left in picture). Power comes in from the 60A spa panel on hardwired 6/3 romex to the distribution blocks. The I branch (2) 30A 220VAC circuits to the 30A breakers, that will in turn supply the SSRs, then heaters. There is a third circuit going to a 10A breaker to feed the PLC, Pumps and various other control/switches.

Nuetrals and Grounds will be distributed to other terminal blocks.

DSC_4392.800x600.JPG
 
nyer said:
Will 6-4 wire work with a 60 amp if I need to run about 45 feet? I found 50 feet for $20 on CL.
Click to expand...

It depends on the cord, really. There's a lot more that factors into the amp rating than just the gauge of the wire.

The type of metal used, the insulation, the number of conductors, etc... these are all important.

As an extreme example, the cord I use to feed from my 240V outlet to my brewery panel is only 8 gauge, but because of the type of insulation used, it has a rating of 3000V and 65A at 90*C. It's seriously over-designed for my needs, but I found it on clearance for $2.20/ft so I bought it.
 
dtfeld said:
This is a mock up of how I plan to bring 60A @220VAV into and distribute in my brew panel (right to left in picture). Power comes in from the 60A spa panel on hardwired 6/3 romex to the distribution blocks. The I branch (2) 30A 220VAC circuits to the 30A breakers, that will in turn supply the SSRs, then heaters. There is a third circuit going to a 10A breaker to feed the PLC, Pumps and various other control/switches.

Nuetrals and Grounds will be distributed to other terminal blocks.
Click to expand...

Looks like you are dropping the gauge of the wire between the distr block and the breakers. Those really should be sized based on the main (60A) breaker.

Ed
 
Ohio-Ed said:
Looks like you are dropping the gauge of the wire between the distr block and the breakers. Those really should be sized based on the main (60A) breaker.

Ed
Click to expand...

Actually... it's legit to do this. Bernie Brewer pointed me to a section of the NEC that describes "feeder taps" when I was asking him about whether I could or could not do this sort of thing.

As long as the smaller gauge wire immediately connects to an over current protection device that is properly sized for the smaller wire, it's A-OK to do. There are other rules related to whether the feeder wire is or is not running a long distance or whether it needs to travel through conduit and other stuff, but for short jumps within a single enclosure, most of the rules don't even apply.

I was very thankful for that, too, because I had 50A coming in and wanted to drop down to 25A for my element and 15A for my controls, and the thought of running a big thick-ass wire from the distro block to the panel where my 15A breaker is installed did not thrill me.
 
This isn't the exact page that Bernie pointed me to, but it has the info on it:

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/NEC-HTML/HTML/FeederSecondaryTapRules~20020326.htm

Feeder Tap Rules
10-Foot Feeder Tap Rule [240.21(B)(1)]
Feeder tap conductors can be run not over 10 ft without overcurrent protection at the point they receive their supply, but they must be installed in accordance with the following requirements: Figure 1
(1) The ampacity of the tap conductor is:
1 Not less than the computed load in accordance with Article 220, and
2 Not less than the rating of the device supplied by the tap conductors or the overcurrent protective device at the termination of the tap conductors.
(2) The tap conductors do not extend beyond the equipment they supply.
(3) The tap conductors are installed in a raceway if they leave the enclosure.
(4) The tap conductors have an ampacity of no less than 10 percent of the ampacity of the overcurrent protection device from which the conductors are tapped.
Click to expand...
 
Walker said:
Actually... it's legit to do this. Bernie Brewer pointed me to a section of the NEC that describes "feeder taps" when I was asking him about whether I could or could not do this sort of thing.

As long as the smaller gauge wire immediately connects to an over current protection device that is properly sized for the smaller wire, it's A-OK to do. There are other rules related to whether the feeder wire is or is not running a long distance or whether it needs to travel through conduit and other stuff, but for short jumps within a single enclosure, most of the rules don't even apply.

I was very thankful for that, too, because I had 50A coming in and wanted to drop down to 25A for my element and 15A for my controls, and the thought of running a big thick-ass wire from the distro block to the panel where my 15A breaker is installed did not thrill me.
Click to expand...

Crap... wish I'd known that:

IMG_3354.jpg
 
Walker said:
This isn't the exact page that Bernie pointed me to, but it has the info on it:

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/NEC-HTML/HTML/FeederSecondaryTapRules~20020326.htm
Click to expand...

Feeder Tap Rules
10-Foot Feeder Tap Rule [240.21(B)(1)]
Feeder tap conductors can be run not over 10 ft without overcurrent protection at the point they receive their supply, but they must be installed in accordance with the following requirements: Figure 1
(1) The ampacity of the tap conductor is:
1 Not less than the computed load in accordance with Article 220, and
2 Not less than the rating of the device supplied by the tap conductors or the overcurrent protective device at the termination of the tap conductors.
(2) The tap conductors do not extend beyond the equipment they supply.
(3) The tap conductors are installed in a raceway if they leave the enclosure.
(4) The tap conductors have an ampacity of no less than 10 percent of the ampacity of the overcurrent protection device from which the conductors are tapped.
Click to expand...

That is very helpful information, Walker. Thanks!

By the way, yer so pretty in that green hat. :cross:
 

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