425 bbls per year ?

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pokerfreak2

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A friend owns a very well established resturant/tourist trap and wants to offer about 5 home made beers. He is a home brewer as well. After much discussion he still wants to set this up in the cheapest fashion possible :(
Anyway, Here is what we have come up with to get this off the ground.
His resturant serves 3000 people per day during the peak tourist season. (4 mounths)
Approx 1/3 of them drink beer. So 1000 beer drinkers per day. Assuming 1/2 will only drink BMC. We would get 500 homebrew drinkers. Some would order the pint and some will order the qt. and a few will take a 1/2 gal growler to go as a souvenier. That works out to about 100-125 gal per day.(during a 4 month peak season) open 7 days a week. 700+ gals per week or 2800 gal per month x 4 months = 11,200 gals. Then the other 8 months we estimate selling about 4 kegs per week of homebrew = 248 gals x 8 months = 1984 so a total of 13,184 gallons per year = 425 bbls a year.
Like I said he wants to start off cheaply so we came up with a plan to do a mini mash/extract brewing in a 75 gal brew kettle a plate chiller then transfering to 5 of these 110 gal plastic conical fermentors and topping off with water to 80 gal.http://www.plastic-mart.com/class.php?item=3152 Let that ferment for approx 10 days and then transfering to kegs to condition for another 3 weeks to a month. Is this insane ? I was going to post this on pro brewer but I am afraid they would laugh me out of there.
 
To get a better idea he ought to put a commercial craft beer on tap and see how well it sells compared to the BMC.

Instead of guessing or estimating how many people drink beer, or how much he can sell, why isn't he using his actual receipts? He can literally see how much beer he sells now to get a much better estimate, and if he wants an even better one, he can put a craft beer or two on tap instead of just BMC and look at the receipts for that.
 
I'd say you're probably over-estimating the percentage of homebrew drinkers. I suspect you'll get a higher percentage of BMC, but it depends on the bar and the crowd you draw. As weirdboy says, you should check out the receipts to figure that out more accurately.

Also, I wasn't really clear if this was an establishment with permits to make and sell beer, or just a bar/restaurant. Having said that, I doubt the guys at pro brewer will laugh you out. A lot of them started small, some even as nano brewers. They can provide a lot better suggestions (I think) at this scale.
 
Thanks for the quick reply. He does have some craft brews on tap as well as BMC. He has 1554, SA white ale, Shock Top, Ziegenbock, XX and used to have arragant basturd but that one was a poor seller as people who tried it usually wanted to send it back.
As far as reciepts he sells 35-40 kegs per week (during peak season) with 65% of the sales going to BMC. He thinks with his name on the home brews along with the addition of growler/souvenier sales that we can get close to 50% of the beer drinkers to go with one of these beers. Also samplers
1-honey blonde ale 2- creamy smoked amber ale 3- raspberry wheat 4- pecan porter 5- IIPA.
I have been trying to convice him to go with this 3 bbl psycho brewing system.
http://probrewer.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=18677
Oh and yes he is working on getting a brewing licence asap
 
That works out to about 100-125 gal per day.(during a 4 month peak season) open 7 days a week.

Using these numbers I get 27-28 kegs per week.

As far as reciepts he sells 35-40 kegs per week (during peak season)

That is more like 155-178 gallons per day. If you are selling 50% from the house brand that means you need to brew every single day just to barely keep up with demand on a 3 bbl system. I would think a 7 bbl system would be more appropriate.
 
Wierdboy, If we sell 50% of 40 kegs per week = 20 kegs = 310 gal per week. If I were to brew 80 gal per day for 5 days. Then our 5 fermentors would be full for approx 10 days untill the transfer. Then start over. It would produce 400 gal every 10 days = 1200 gal per month. I realize that during peak season that's barely enough, but if you were to get stocked up before the peak season it might hold out through the 4 months, then it's back to small amounts.
 
Using these numbers I get 27-28 kegs per week.



That is more like 155-178 gallons per day. If you are selling 50% from the house brand that means you need to brew every single day just to barely keep up with demand on a 3 bbl system. I would think a 7 bbl system would be more appropriate.

Yeah but if you're doing extract like they're thinking you can make more barrels on a smaller system. Of course the downside to that is increased ingredient cost. But the good news is that the profit selling your beer from your own tap is pretty darn high.
 
Wierdboy, If we sell 50% of 40 kegs per week = 20 kegs = 310 gal per week. If I were to brew 80 gal per day for 5 days. Then our 5 fermentors would be full for approx 10 days untill the transfer. Then start over. It would produce 400 gal every 10 days = 1200 gal per month. I realize that during peak season that's barely enough, but if you were to get stocked up before the peak season it might hold out through the 4 months, then it's back to small amounts.

If you are planning a brewery now, you are much better off starting with some room to grow rather than already being behind the expected demand. Otherwise when business picks up you will be in there brewing double and triple batches and shuffling fermenters and bright tanks 24x7. Not to mention the ridiculous amount of cleaning.


At the very least, you'd probably want to get one or two bigger fermenters for more popular beers so that you can increase your throughput.
 
Also buying extract syrup is much more expensive than buying grains. If he is looking for economy, that would be the way to go.


Why would he even put BMC on tap??? It's his bar, he can make a kick ass pale ale instead and triple your sales. If you REALLY want a BMC beer (lighter than what most homebrewers would consider a pale ale or american light ale) those recipes exist too using corn or rice. I see no reason to ALLOW BMC to compete if it's his bar!!!
 
If you are planning a brewery now, you are much better off starting with some room to grow rather than already being behind the expected demand. Otherwise when business picks up you will be in there brewing double and triple batches and shuffling fermenters and bright tanks 24x7. Not to mention the ridiculous amount of cleaning.


At the very least, you'd probably want to get one or two bigger fermenters for more popular beers so that you can increase your throughput.

This will be a brewpub not a brewery. There probably won't be much of an increase in business as this place has run at this capacity for many years. I don't see it being able to grow much in sales from adding a homebrewed beer. However it could get bigger due to the amount of updated billboards along a major Interstate across the USA. 100's of billboards will soon be updated to read "New Homemade Beer" along with there free 72 oz. steak.
 
Also buying extract syrup is much more expensive than buying grains. If he is looking for economy, that would be the way to go.


Why would he even put BMC on tap??? It's his bar, he can make a kick ass pale ale instead and triple your sales. If you REALLY want a BMC beer (lighter than what most homebrewers would consider a pale ale or american light ale) those recipes exist too using corn or rice. I see no reason to ALLOW BMC to compete if it's his bar!!!

How much more expensive is the combo of steeping grains vs all grain? It looks like 80 gal of mini mash/ extract will cost 411.84 thats $5.15 per gal. Is all grain gonna save a ton vs less equipment?
I would love it if he would get rid of BMC, but some people will only drink thier brainwashed favorite. We will be the only craft brews available though. All others would be gone.
 
But the good news is that the profit selling your beer from your own tap is pretty darn high.

Is it? After talking with some pro's around here I was under the impression that in-house draft sales don't do much for you. Keg distribution and especially bottling are where you make your money!?
 
I brew 10 gallon batches and for most mid-gravity beers they run about $25-35 per batch for barley & hops. That's buying 50 pound sacks of 2 row and specialty grains as I go. You would get much better prices by buying in bulk, I would guess under $2 a gallon. Does he have experience with all grain brewing? If not, I'd say he needs to get his feet wet with that before moving forward.
 
Is it? After talking with some pro's around here I was under the impression that in-house draft sales don't do much for you. Keg distribution and especially bottling are where you make your money!?

Well, there are a lot of variables at work, but you've got to figure that selling beer at $4 a pint direct to the consumer is going to give you the biggest gross margins. The math may work differently depending on what you have for staffing and other costs, but selling their own beer in-house is the bread and butter of most brewpubs.
 
Thanks for the quick reply. He does have some craft brews on tap as well as BMC. He has 1554, SA white ale, Shock Top, Ziegenbock, XX and used to have arragant basturd but that one was a poor seller as people who tried it usually wanted to send it back.

I HATE to be "that person", but I'm sure you know that NONE of those beers you listed, except for Arrogant Bastard would be considered craft beers.

He has to put Sierra Nevada Pale Ale on tap, and maybe a Moose Drool type beer, to gauge interest in "real" craft beers. A Shock Top or Ziegenbock or XX beer drinker only thinks they are drinking craft beers, and will probably not like any thing you make.
 
I brew 10 gallon batches and for most mid-gravity beers they run about $25-35 per batch for barley & hops. That's buying 50 pound sacks of 2 row and specialty grains as I go. You would get much better prices by buying in bulk, I would guess under $2 a gallon. Does he have experience with all grain brewing? If not, I'd say he needs to get his feet wet with that before moving forward.

Neither on of us have done all grain. We have both been brewing mini-mash for years though.

I HATE to be "that person", but I'm sure you know that NONE of those beers you listed, except for Arrogant Bastard would be considered craft beers.

He has to put Sierra Nevada Pale Ale on tap, and maybe a Moose Drool type beer, to gauge interest in "real" craft beers. A Shock Top or Ziegenbock or XX beer drinker only thinks they are drinking craft beers, and will probably not like any thing you make.

You may be right, but I have always had good feedback on my honey blonde, creamy smoked ale and pecan porters and women seem to gravitate toward the raspberry wheat. I just wanted to offer the IIPA for the hop heads.
 
i think she meant the XX, shocktop, zeigenbock, SA white... not the beers you plan to brew.

yoop, would you not consider 1554 a craft beer since new belgium is producing too much beer? i'm just curious, i don't know what the official barrellage per year (or whatever the measuring stick) is comparing 'craft' to 'too big to be called craft but still not BMC'.
 
i think she meant the XX, shocktop, zeigenbock, SA white... not the beers you plan to brew.

yoop, would you not consider 1554 a craft beer since new belgium is producing too much beer? i'm just curious, i don't know what the official barrellage per year (or whatever the measuring stick) is comparing 'craft' to 'too big to be called craft but still not BMC'.

No, I just don't think much of 1554. A big craft beer is fine- Sierra Nevada sprang to mind because it's a good "gateway" beer.

I'm sure your beers are very good! I didn't mean to say they weren't. I was just commenting on the clientele thinking that those beers are craft beers. They are not- they are macroswill of the BMC type.

Dos Equis is not bad for what it is. It's just not what I would consider a gateway beer to craft beers. By saying that he has craft beers on tap which sell well and then mentioning BMC macros, my point was simply that he doesn't have any craft beers on tap. People who are drinking ShockTop aren't going to be drinking fine pale ales.
 
Ok but back to my original question. Do you think that a 60 gal extract brewed in a 75 gal BK on a 130,000 BTU burner transfered through a plate chiller to 110 gal plastic conical then topped to 80 gal done 5 times then pitch and let ferment for aprox 10 day then transfered to kegs to condition for 3 weeks to a month to produce 400 gal every 10 days is a reasonable plan ?
 
Is it? After talking with some pro's around here I was under the impression that in-house draft sales don't do much for you. Keg distribution and especially bottling are where you make your money!?

1 keg = 124 pints. Let's assume you lose 10% to samples/over pour etc... you get 112 pints.

Now then. Your end client (the drinker) can buy your beer one of two ways. On premise (draft) or at a store in bottles.

If you sell on premise you sell your beer for $4 a pint and that keg's been sold for $448.

To get your beer to the consumer in a store it has to go from you, to a distributor to a store then finally to the customer. You, the distributor and the store all have to make money.

So you make your kegs worth of beer (for simplicities sake) let's say $100. You can't sell that keg to the distributor for the same mark-up you did for the customers at the pub. They wouldn't make any money, and by the time it got to the customer it'd be too expensive. So you sell it for $150. Then they sell it to the store for $200. Then by the time it's gotten to the customer it's been sold for $250.

Now you tell me whether or not you'll get more money on premise or selling for retail?

I have a friend at Cigar City. He told me that while the margin's aren't great in bottles and kegs for bars, they make great money in their tasting room.
 
Ok but back to my original question. Do you think that a 60 gal extract brewed in a 75 gal BK on a 130,000 BTU burner transfered through a plate chiller to 110 gal plastic conical then topped to 80 gal done 5 times then pitch and let ferment for aprox 10 day then transfered to kegs to condition for 3 weeks to a month to produce 400 gal every 10 days is a reasonable plan ?

You wouldn't want to keg. You'd want to filter and force carb in brite tanks (which double as serving tanks). Your turn around time is much much shorter. And if you intend to keep up with production you need to hit it that way.

You can go from grain (or extract in this case) to glass in under 3 weeks.
 
I think it sounds very doable. You could break it up so you were only brewing one batch a day. The limiting factor seems to be your fermentors.
 
What are you going to do when someone asks you about your 'homebrew' and you have to explain how much extract syrup you put in the recipe?

I wouldn't drink at a place that brewed their own with extract and considered Dos Equis(Heineken), Shock Top(Anheuser-Busch Inbev), Zeigenbock(Anheuser-Busch InBev, released the same year as Michelob Amberbock, appears to be pretty much the same thing) and Sam Adams(which is what I order at Applebees)
 
What are you going to do when someone asks you about your 'homebrew' and you have to explain how much extract syrup you put in the recipe?

I wouldn't drink at a place that brewed their own with extract and considered Dos Equis(Heineken), Shock Top(Anheuser-Busch Inbev), Zeigenbock(Anheuser-Busch InBev, released the same year as Michelob Amberbock, appears to be pretty much the same thing) and Sam Adams(which is what I order at Applebees)

I disagree. I from Fredericksburg Tx. Home of Texas' first "brew pub". Their beer is **** and the rest of what they serve is BMC. They're always packed and make a ton of money. And they brew with extract.

If you're looking at it from solely a money making perspective it can be done. If you're looking at it from a craft perspective... that's a totally different story.
 
Man. You're really catching a lot for thinking about putting extract in there. You also are getting ripped up for the stuff that's on tap that you are trying to replace. Rough night.
 
Man. You're really catching a lot for thinking about putting extract in there. You also are getting ripped up for the stuff that's on tap that you are trying to replace. Rough night.

No doubt, I knew that doing extract would catch alot of flack on this site, but I make some awesome brews from the steeping/extract brewing process and I don't think that the public would ask or give a damn as long as they are great tasting brews.
It's kinda like when I was a water color artist and I used white paint to make my art. The purists would critisize me to no end, but I sold alot of paintings to people who just liked the way it looked, they didn't care one bit how I did it.

Now if the fermentors are going to be a choke point, they are only $297 each, we could buy more, how about 10 - 110 conicals, that way if I brew once a day, by the time I got the last one filled, the first one would be ready to transfer.

Now the cost of brite serving tanks are big $ and I agree we could get it to tap much quicker. That may be an option in the future, but I don't think that they are in the budget. :(

I also want to remind everyone that this is a tourist/trap. There will be local customers also, but by far the majority will be tourists that will be there one time.
 
I disagree. I from Fredericksburg Tx. Home of Texas' first "brew pub". Their beer is **** and the rest of what they serve is BMC. They're always packed and make a ton of money. And they brew with extract.

If you're looking at it from solely a money making perspective it can be done. If you're looking at it from a craft perspective... that's a totally different story.
The thing is, if you look at it purely from a money perspective, all grain is the way to go. I switched to all grain just a couple of months ago, and the mash tun has already more than paid for itself. Yes, it adds a little labor, but on a large scale the cost savings would be tremendous.
 
You will want at least one brite tank for each tap you intend to run +1 additional for conditioning to keep the rotation moving, otherwise you will spend a fortune on kegs, kegging, and keg cleaning.

And don't worry about anyone who thinks they are better then an extract brew. They obviously don't know what they are talking about. All grain does several things for you, but one thing it doesn't do is magically make "better beer". It's less expensive, it allows you to hit color marks you can't readily get with extract, and it allows you to have more control over the final result. But if you have a recipe you really like based on extract, then you have yourself a good beer.
 
If you doubled the fermentors, I think you'd be in great shape. I like the kegging idea too. Kegs are cheap and easily stored. With that equipment, I think you'll have room to grow. You be able to brew 2 batches in an 8 hour shift. That doubles you planned production without adding additional shifts. I think you're leaving yourself lots of flexibility.

It might be wise to consider sizing your BK and MLT for full boils. At least weigh out the cost difference. You know how it is. Bigger is better.
 
No doubt, I knew that doing extract would catch alot of flack on this site, but I make some awesome brews from the steeping/extract brewing process and I don't think that the public would ask or give a damn as long as they are great tasting brews.
It's kinda like when I was a water color artist and I used white paint to make my art. The purists would critisize me to no end, but I sold alot of paintings to people who just liked the way it looked, they didn't care one bit how I did it.

Now if the fermentors are going to be a choke point, they are only $297 each, we could buy more, how about 10 - 110 conicals, that way if I brew once a day, by the time I got the last one filled, the first one would be ready to transfer.

Now the cost of brite serving tanks are big $ and I agree we could get it to tap much quicker. That may be an option in the future, but I don't think that they are in the budget. :(

I also want to remind everyone that this is a tourist/trap. There will be local customers also, but by far the majority will be tourists that will be there one time.

I'm not giving you crap for brewing with extract. I've made some exceptional beer with it. My beer vastly improved (especially for drier beers) when I switched to AG, but I firmly believe that good beer can be made with extract.

Anywho. You'll never get the turn around needed without brite/serving tanks. Think of it like this. You can spend a ton of money one brite tanks. Or you can spend a ton of money on kegs. Go to probrewer.com classifieds and look for used tanks.
 
I also want to remind everyone that this is a tourist/trap. There will be local customers also, but by far the majority will be tourists that will be there one time.
I live in a tourist area too. We live off the summers, Christmas-New Years, and long weekends. Don't underestimate how important local clientele are. You need your tourists, but your locals are just as important. If the locals aren't spending their time there, what incentive do your tourists have of stopping in?

If you can figure out how to break close to even with your locals, you're going to be in great shape. Locals menus, locals nights, etc. Build a base. Not many people get motivated to walk into an empty place and give it a try.
 
The thing is, if you look at it purely from a money perspective, all grain is the way to go. I switched to all grain just a couple of months ago, and the mash tun has already more than paid for itself. Yes, it adds a little labor, but on a large scale the cost savings would be tremendous.

Trust me. I've run the numbers. On premise serving with extract brewing can be profitable. Of course AG is less expensive. Everyone knows that.
 
Trust me. I've run the numbers. On premise serving with extract brewing can be profitable. Of course AG is less expensive. Everyone knows that.
I didn't say extract couldn't be profitable, just that all grain is much more so. The restaurant business is hard enough without adding unnecessary expense.
 
The thing is, if you look at it purely from a money perspective, all grain is the way to go. I switched to all grain just a couple of months ago, and the mash tun has already more than paid for itself. Yes, it adds a little labor, but on a large scale the cost savings would be tremendous.

I would really like to know how much cheaper all grain would be. My figures are based on AHS bulk grain 40lb. bags @ 48.69 and bulk extract 40 lbs @ $100 and specialty grains 25 lbs @ $90. I figured one of my favorite recipes I would need:
80 lbs. Amber liquid malt extract = $200.00
32 lbs. Pale Ale malt (8 lbs left over)= $48.69
12 lbs. Crystal 60 L malt = $17.50
8 lbs. Cara Pils malt = $13.30
5 lbs. peated malt = $11.00
1 1/2 pounds hops = $ 47.84
yeast = $50.00 could wash and reuse
yeast fuel = $24.00 maybe not just make starters
Total for 80 gal = $412.33 or 362.33 reusing yeast. - yeast fuel = $338.33
80 gal is a little over 5 kegs = 67.66 per keg

How much would 80 gal cost all grain? And would that savings justify the additional expence in equipment costs.

As for kegs we have 80 saved up and got them for $20 ea. I am just worried that there might be too much yeast sediment in the bottom of them. Do you think we should filter between conical and keg ? Brite tanks are just not an option right now.
 
I live in a tourist area too. We live off the summers, Christmas-New Years, and long weekends. Don't underestimate how important local clientele are. You need your tourists, but your locals are just as important. If the locals aren't spending their time there, what incentive do your tourists have of stopping in?

If you can figure out how to break close to even with your locals, you're going to be in great shape. Locals menus, locals nights, etc. Build a base. Not many people get motivated to walk into an empty place and give it a try.

Empty? No this place runs 3000 people per day peak season and has for 40 years. Some local but like I say it's tourists.
 
$48.69 per 40 lb is way too much (guessing you meant 50 lb). I get 50 lb sacks for $42 retail locally. If I shop in Portland, that can go as low as $30 for 2 row, and that's still retail. You would be buying in bulk for this venture. Your cost would be even lower.

You will definitely want to reuse your yeast. Reusing yeast, and $42 2 row, my average recipe (roughly 6% and 60 IBUS) would come out to about $320 for an 80 gallon batch excluding taxes. I haven't started buying my hops in bulk yet, so this is another area for significant cost savings.
 
If you are operating a brewery, even a small one, you are going to be able to get 50# bags for less than $30 certainly, and more than likely less than half of the prices you see on AHS.

Also 1.5 pounds of hops for $48 is a rip off. As a Joe Blow consumer I can get the same amount of hops for $15-$20 depending on variety.
 
$48.69 per 40 lb is way too much (guessing you meant 50 lb). I get 50 lb sacks for $42 retail locally. If I shop in Portland, that can go as low as $30 for 2 row, and that's still retail. You would be buying in bulk for this venture. Your cost would be even lower.

You will definitely want to reuse your yeast. Reusing yeast, and $42 2 row, my average recipe (roughly 6% and 60 IBUS) would come out to about $320 for an 80 gallon batch excluding taxes. I haven't started buying my hops in bulk yet, so this is another area for significant cost savings.

Like I said this is based on AHS website.
http://www.austinhomebrew.com/index.php?cPath=178_21_71_425_426
I have contacted Brewers supply and requested a quote but have not heard back from them yet.
 
If you are operating a brewery, even a small one, you are going to be able to get 50# bags for less than $30 certainly, and more than likely less than half of the prices you see on AHS.

Also 1.5 pounds of hops for $48 is a rip off. As a Joe Blow consumer I can get the same amount of hops for $15-$20 depending on variety.

That's good news. Our costs of ingredients will be much lower than expected ! Now what do you think bulk price will be on Amber liquid malt extract?
 
All I'm saying is that you will save a good deal of money if you go all grain. I suggest building a $70 igloo mash tun for your home setup and see that it's really not that daunting. Can't hurt to give it a shot.
 
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