Batch sparge temp calculation question.

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Schnitzengiggle

Schnitzengiggle

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I am using Beersmith, and on my preview sheet for my recipe, it says to strike with ~9.5 qts of 164° water to reach a rest temp of 152° with my 7.5 lbs of grain at a temp of 75°.

I will be using a double batch sparge of 3 gallons each, and Beersmith says to sparge with 168° water for each batch.

Meow my question is this, if I am adding 3 gallons of 168° water to grain that is about ~152° after my first runnings, will that keep me in the 168° range during sparging, or will I need to heat my water a few degrees warmer (175-180°) to keep within the 168° sparge temp?

Is Beersmith incorrect, or is it just not that critical to keep within the realm of 168° during sparging?

Or, even better, is the 3 gallons of 168° water enough to raise the temperature in the mash tun to 168° without a significant loss of heat to the grain?

As usual I may be over-thinking things, but this Sunday will be my first AG brew day, and I would like it to go off without a hitch.

FWIW, this is an Ordinary Bitter recipe with an OG of 1.042.
 
Hi. I follow the instructions from BeerSmith with good results. Others with more experience and a more scientific approach to brewing might be able to answer your specific question, though.
 
Schnitzengiggle said:
I am using Beersmith, and on my preview sheet for my recipe, it says to strike with ~9.5 qts of 164° water to reach a rest temp of 152° with my 7.5 lbs of grain at a temp of 75°.

I will be using a double batch sparge of 3 gallons each, and Beersmith says to sparge with 168° water for each batch.

Meow my question is this, if I am adding 3 gallons of 168° water to grain that is about ~152° after my first runnings, will that keep me in the 168° range during sparging, or will I need to heat my water a few degrees warmer (175-180°) to keep within the 168° sparge temp?

Is Beersmith incorrect, or is it just not that critical to keep within the realm of 168° during sparging?

Or, even better, is the 3 gallons of 168° water enough to raise the temperature in the mash tun to 168° without a significant loss of heat to the grain?

As usual I may be over-thinking things, but this Sunday will be my first AG brew day, and I would like it to go off without a hitch.

FWIW, this is an Ordinary Bitter recipe with an OG of 1.042.
Click to expand...

If you choose Single Infusion instead of Single Infusion, Batch Sparge, then the software will give you a mashout of about 1.5g at about 200F.

If you select a mash profile that includes "batch sparge", then BeerSmith does not include a mashout.

BTW, you probably already know this but you can force 2 equal sparges by just lowering the volume of your mash tun to 4 gallons (in your Equipment profile).
 
Either Beersmith is wrong or you are misinterpreting what it is telling you.
Adding 168F sparge water to a 152F mash cannot raise the temp to 168F. You will lose some heat to heating the MLT, and more heat to raising the mash temp, resulting in a sparge temp of much less than 168F. It's so long since I batch sparged that I'm not even going to guess what temp your sparge water should be heated to.

-a.
 
Choose Single Infusion (not the batch sparge options) for your mash. BS will give you a mashout to raise the mash before the sparges.

I thought I put this in a post above, but apparently it was either 1) invisible, or 2) not clear.
 
not trying to jack the thread, but I have the exact same question. I've done 3 AG batches using Beersmith and added 168 water for the sparge and ended up with 40% (crush from LHBS sucked) 55% and 60% efficiency. Would adding the 185 water increase my efficiency? I've been mashing at 152 and 1.25 qt/lb and doing a single sparge usually around 3.3 gallons depending on the recipe.
 
Yeh, that won't work at 168F.

I do my batch sparging with 182-184F water to hit 166-168F. Depends on your vessels and such, but as ajf noted, it simply isn't possible. I no longer use BS for my mashing and sparge calcs. It is confusing in my opinion!
 
I think that passedpawn is right on the money if you want to follow BS for your sparging. I have done 5 AG brews to date and until today, I couldn't hit 168F on my sparge. I do a double batch sparge and it is tough to hit the 168 due to variables such as a slow mash out which will lower your grain temp etc.

Today, I finally decided to add 1 gallon of boiling water prior to my sparging. This took my grain bed to about 165. Then I added the first batch sparge amount (minus 1 gallon) at about 175. I hit 168 right on.

I read one of Bobby M's posts once and he was talking about hitting 168 is not crucial to efficiency. I think he said that as long as you hit a batch sparge temp above 162 or so you are fine.

Have fun brewing up your first AG!
 
Thank you passedpawn, I couldn't figure this out!!! Psyched for my first AG batch on Saturday :)
 
I wonder if this is why my last two beers finished at 1.018 and 1.020. BeerTools Pro tells me to batch sparge with 168 degree water, and I sitting here wondering "How can 168 degree water get my grain bed from ~150 to 170?" Not possible. So, how do I deal with this issue in BTP?

A little more info:
I vorlauf, then get my first runnings. Up to this point, I haven't taken the temp. of my grain bed after first runnings.

Then I do a double batch sparge, usually with something like 2.25 quarts (for each sparge) of 168 degree water.
 
I don't think this is a bug in Beersmith. But it is not intuitive.

Mashout is a water addition at around 200 to bring your entire grain bed up to about 168. This both increases the solubility of the sugars, for the subsequent sparge, and denatures the enzymes that are creating the sugars.

Why denature the enzymes? Soley for the sake of repeatability. If you are a fly-sparger, the sparging can take a significant, and variable, amount of time. If the enzymes are working this entire time, your beer will be slightly different from batch to batch. Denaturing is permanent stops these enzymes (they don't get started again if the temp drops back down).

However, for batch-spargers, the sparging is relatively quick. The denaturing will happen soon in the boil. So, (according to Beersmith) the mashout addition is unnecessary for the denaturing. If you choose a mash profile that includes batch sparging, the entire mashout addition is skipped.

FWIW, I still do a mashout to increase the solubility.
 
Julohan said:
off topic. Anyone notice the OP said meow. Reminds me of Super Troopers.
Click to expand...

I'm glad you caught that.:rockin:

passedpawn said:
Choose Single Infusion (not the batch sparge options) for your mash. BS will give you a mashout to raise the mash before the sparges.

I thought I put this in a post above, but apparently it was either 1) invisible, or 2) not clear.
Click to expand...

I don't have the program in front of me right now, but IIRC, BS gives the mash profile "Single Infusion, no mash out". So I will basically be practicing a single infusion double batch sparge w/o mash out.

I guess my confusion is if BS wants you to raise the grain temp to 168, why wouldn't it calculate the proper sparge temp for you?

FWIW, I had to reduce my sparge with batches that fill the mash tun to 50% to get an equal sparge volume.
 
Julohan said:
off topic. Anyone notice the OP said meow. Reminds me of Super Troopers.
Click to expand...

Meow, that's hilarious. What's next...snozzberry beer?

Sorry, I just wanted to bump this one to see if anyone could answer my post up above.
 
KayaBrew said:
I wonder if this is why my last two beers finished at 1.018 and 1.020. BeerTools Pro tells me to batch sparge with 168 degree water, and I sitting here wondering "How can 168 degree water get my grain bed from ~150 to 170?" Not possible. So, how do I deal with this issue in BTP?

A little more info:
I vorlauf, then get my first runnings. Up to this point, I haven't taken the temp. of my grain bed after first runnings.

Then I do a double batch sparge, usually with something like 2.25 quarts (for each sparge) of 168 degree water.
Click to expand...

You meed a mashout water. Look it up.

The sparging is not going to have an affect on finishing gravity.

First, you didn't mention the OG (original gravity into the fermenter). If it was 1.080, and your yeast did the typical 75% attenuation, then it will finish at 1.020 and that is normal.

If you started with a 1.050 batch, then you probably mashing at a high temperature and not getting good conversion. Try ensuring your mash is between 150 and 160. 150 will result in more fermentable worts, with a much lower FG than what you got.
 
Mashout water isn't really necessary for batch sparging. You crank the temp of the sparge and get the same effect. Beer tools pro just defaults to 168F sparge just like beersmith does, but in the main schedule window you can arrow up/down the temp and see what the equalized temp is going to be once stirred into the grain bed. Note that it's very important that you select "collection vessel" equal "none" in the batch sparge details window for this temperature result to be accurate.
 
Something else about Beersmith that caught my attention is, why does it offer a "no mash out", and a "batch sparge" when choosing a Single Infusion mash profile, it changes nothing on the brew sheet!

From what I can tell they are identical. Is Beersmith trying to state that a "no mash out" is the same as a "no sparge", because it seems to give sparge volumes such as in a btch sparge?

Me no understandy!?!?:drunk:
 
Thanks, passedawn and Bobby. Bob, I knew you would have some insight on this. I learned how to use BTP from your videos. I'll play around with it and see what happens.
 

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