Safale S-04: wtf?

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robertjohnson

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I've been having problems with off-flavors from S-04. It tastes dirty and musty, almost like dry-rotted wood. It's the same exact flavor in only the batches fermented with this yeast and get more noticeable during the conditioning process. I even split a batch three-ways to check on yeast flavors and only this yeast produced them. I could describe all other controls I've used to isolate the flavor, but suffice it to say that it's definitely the yeast, not infection and not oxidation or anything else. So, what's up?

I've usually fermented this in the 67-71 range. It's a little high, but it didn't take off at all for me below 65 until I brought it back up to temperature. Others in the thread have said they've had success below 65, so I'm wondering what's up with my yeast handling...

I cool down boiled water to around 86-92, pitch the yeast into it according to the mr malty calculator, wait a while, then gradually add wort to bring them into equilibrium at my fermentation temps. I do the same thing for every yeast and feel like I've got the process nailed. Works for everything else. What else could it be with this yeast? I've heard Jamil say certain yeasts work better for certain set-ups but, come on, wood fungi!?!?
 
Hm... you're pitching fairly hot; maybe -04 doesn't handle hot pitching temps as well? I've gotten tasty beers out of it without any of the musty flavors, and my fermenting temps have been similar.
 
Your "pitch" is your re-hydration process, correct?

You actually pitch to wort at the 68 - 71 temp, right?

I do S-04 at 65 - 68 but it's gone as high as low 70s without going musty/dusty or wood.
 
Your procedures seem sound. I've fermented S-04 at 71-72 before and never had these types of flavors. I know you said it's not an infection, but with the type of flavor you're getting and the fact that it gets worse during conditioning seems to point in that direction. It's worth reconsideration anyway.
 
Yeah, sorry, I pitch the yeast at fermentation temperature but rehydrate it at 86-92. I thought it was infection at first too, menschmaschine, but I've fermented multiple batches at once and the yeast is really the only common denominator. And it's been in every safale 04 batch. Here's what I'm thinking:

1. I also do long primaries and I'm wondering if maybe that has anything to do with it. Since it rips through fermentation fast and then flocculates really fast, it sits on the yeast cake for about two and a half weeks without much really going on. I haven't had any problems with this for any other yeasts, but this could be what's imparting that flavor. I don't know, would that make the difference? What sort of schedules do other people use with this?

2. I also condition at about 70-75* in my basement, so that could be it. That would also explain it showing up only after bottling. What temps are other people conditioning at?

If anyone lives in walla walla (doubtful), I'd gladly show what I'm talking about.
 
I had previously stopped using s-04 as all my beers brewed with it had a distinct yeasty-tang that as you said, got stronger as it aged. I even entered one of the beers into a comp (it was a special bitter) to see what the judges thought. The beer scored a 33 and one of the judges commented that the beer tasted like I had used s04 and fermented it too high. He was right.

Now whenever I use s04 I ferment it as low as it will tolerate. No more off flavors.
 
Theoretically, if the fermented beer sits for a relatively long time and at relatively high temperatures on the cake, it could produce off-flavors from decaying yeast cells. Not autolysis, per se, but decaying yeast cells, which decay faster at higher temperatures. Perhaps S-04 is more prone to producing off-flavors in this way. You could contact Fermentis and see what they say.
 
I really think you need to keep this yeast on the cool side because it can get quite estery over 68*F in my experience.

By 67-71 do you mean room temp or actual fermenter temp? If you aren't using any fermentation temp control a 70*F room temp will be a 77*F ferment which will be quite estery with any ale strain.

My guess is that it's just really estery and you personally don't like the ester profile of the yeast, so I suggest using a different yeast.
 
I ferment in a water bath that sits in a defunct refrigerator and base my temperature readings on the bath. I assume it can't be more than a few degrees warmer inside during active fermentation, and I only let it hit 70 after the krausen has subsided. I guess I could always get one of those strips to stick on your fermenter. In any case, I'll try one more batch with it (eventually) and keep it at 65.

Menschmachine: Yeah, I was thinking that since it ferments and flocculates so quickly that it might also be more prone to producing dead yeast flavors. I'll see if I can find anything out.
 
I like S-04... not A LOT, but I like it.

I keep the fermentation at about 65F, seems to work well.

I have never had the flavors that you describe... I use this yeast in my Ofest and Holiday Ales and they are both superbly malty and clean.

I second what Sacc. sayes... get it warm, 68F and up... and it will get a little English on ya!
 
After reading what saccharomyces had to say, curiosity got the better of me and I measured the temperature of my water bath that I was fermenting my german hefeweizen in. Water bath was 63*F, beer was 68*F. I think the mystery's been solved.

I've just been fermenting everything in the 70s and think the safale 04 gets pretty out of hand in that range. I just uncapped the one windsor beer early and it tastes almost like canned hash (dry dog food). I think the esters in the english yeasts just get way out of hand up there, but it's good to know that all my beers have been too hot. I guess that's really it for me until things cool down a bit then. Damn, I love brewing on summer evenings. Thanks for the help.
 
Okay, looks like I'll wait until fall sets in and a constant 65 is manageable.

I think you'll be happy with S-04 once you keep the temps down. I use it for most of my English ales, and usually leave it in primary 3-5 weeks with none of the off flavors you describe. During that time it falls wonderfully clear, with a tightly packed sediment...after crash cooling another few days, it's even hard to disturb the sediment.

My chest freezer normally is set to 62°, it's probably 3-4 degress higher inside the fermenter at peak of fermentation.
 
Yeah, it's definitely worth a try. How did you rig up your chest freezer to maintain a constant 62*F? I'm thinking this would be a worthwhile investment down the road so I can brew in the summer.
 
Just thought I'd add that it turned out in my (jamil's) southern english brown. I didn't change ferment temps or anything since it was conditioning when I posted this, but it really turned out well in this beer. The flavor is still there, but it just fits in and tastes like an english beer rather than what I'd described before.
 
just tasted a new batch tonight that sat 3 weeks on a s04 yeast cake. No musty wood flavors. Kept it cool for the first week (62 deg f.) in my kegerator and then brought it inside after a cold snap from the garage to finish up the next 2 weeks in the low 70's. The yeast did fine.
 
I used S-04 for an IPA and it is turning out to taste great. It has only been 3 weeks primary, then one week in keg. No musty wood flavors at all.
 
..just to add my experience, since the yeast discussion doesn't get old :)

I love the S-04, the fermentation is moderately fast, week or two, but I always leave it a couple of more days extra for the yeast to clean up. I have to say that this is one of the most reliable yeasts that I've been using. No off flavors, clear beer and the sediment is thick and strong like a brick.
I ferment at 20C (68F, room temperature) and never had any problems with it.
 
Like others have said, lower the pitching temps.

When I did my first batch with 04 I pitched at about 80. The beer came out a complete ester bomb full of weird flavors. I chalked it up to the yeast and didn't come back to it until I was finished with another brew day and realized the only yeast I had in my fridge was a packet of the 04. I reluctantly pitched it (this time at about 65) and let that beer ferment just under 70. To my surprise it was very clean with just the slight fruitiness that you get out of an English yeast. Since then I have used it many times and as long as it is pitched cool and kept relatively cool while fermenting (not over 72) it has made me some great brews.
 
I brewed two batches this past weekend with S-04. It's been bubbling away since Sunday- wort temp 65. Guess I should drop the temp a couple degrees just to make sure there are no off flavors. It does smell good though.
 
Hi first post here, I'd like to share that I got the same mysterious wood flavour in my last brew (my 7th) and this was the only forum thread I could find on the issue, I used US-05 though. The taste is an aftertaste that comes on really strong a few seconds after swallowing, it's really woody like the beer had been oaked or smoked malt used.

Only things I did different this brew was the yeast was an open packet and had been kept in the fridge, although when hydrated it bubbled and smelled fine all totally normal. I also used a different sparging technique which resulted in a lot more hot side aeration (HSA than normal), basically the entire wort was dripped into the pot rather than tubed. I used galaxy hops for the first time but I tasted them in hot water and no wood flavour at all. I also used wheat malt for the first time, I should check if that tastes ok.

The beer was pale malt, wheat malt, galaxy hops and US-05. Was making a clone of Stone & Wood's Pacific Ale.

My ferment temp was exactly the same as it always has been 20 Celsius. 10 days ferment exact same. Bottle conditioned 2 weeks. Unfortunately I didn't taste it after ferment so don't know if the wood flavour was at that stage.

Can anyone with the wood flavour relate to the old yeast, HSA or wheat malt, to help me narrow it down?
 
A few weeks back I did an English premium bitters with S-04 that came out great.
I let the wort cool and stabilize overnight to my basement temp of 66 but also in a water bath to help even out any temp swings.
I pitched one pack for 3.5 gallons at 66F.
It started quick and I let it ride for 3 weeks though it mostly finished in the first week. Temp got up to 68 during the most active fermentation.
Beer came out great - clear, balanced, no rotting wood!
 
I've done a lot w/ S-04 and no such flavors as you indicate. I think pitching temp and fermenting temp are what's going on here.

Even sitting in a pan of water on my basement floor, ambient temps at about 65*, S-04 will ramp wort temp to 68-70. I've started using a swamp cooler to keep it around 65* and it works. In the pic below you can see the Inkbird report a temp of 64.2*; I'm using it only to monitor temp, not to control it.

BTW, the temp probe is held against the fermenter with a block of foam to insulate it from outside temps.

threeamigos.jpg
 
It must be fermentation temperatures. Or a big sensitivity to the normal taste of these yeasts. I ferment all my ales in the mid sixties and have never gotten a wood flavor. I use US05 and S-04 quite often. They are my go to dry yeasts when I don't have time to make starters with liquid yeasts. IMO, HSA is something that you would have to really overdo to even notice. Autolysis is something that you are unlikely to encounter in a homebrew setting.
 
I would also add that sometimes you just get a funky pack of yeast. I've had this happen with Safale, White Labs, and Wyeast. Yeast strains that I've used 20 or 30 times with great results and then one smack pack, vial, or sachet just gives a subpar result. I try to reuse yeast from successful fermentations for many successive batches if I can for this reason.
 
I also used a different sparging technique which resulted in a lot more hot side aeration (HSA than normal), basically the entire wort was dripped into the pot rather than tubed.

HSA isn't a thing. There are decent brewers who claim its real and swear they have experienced it but it always stops being an issue when they buy a kegging system and stop cold side aerating it when bottle conditioning. I find the dry yeasts sometimes have a bad musty off flavour if there is any yeast in suspension. Let the beer fully settle out clear and see if the flavour remains.
 
Never had those off flavors but it's really not a yeast you want to ferment in the 70's. Had a lot of turbid "muddy" taste to it for me when it gets warm.
 
Thanks for the replies, so regarding the bottles that tasted woody just over week ago those had been conditioned for 2 weeks and then placed in the fridge, one was drank the same day, then another the day after and a 3rd the day after that and all tasted woody.

Now its a week later and I had left some bottles in the fridge and today both taste absolutely fine. Is it possible an extra week bottle conditioning or the week in the fridge had something to do with it?

I think I remember a pale ale that tasted quite estery initially clearing up after a few weeks too, and that was made with the same packet of US-05, it wasn't a woody taste like this though. FYI I make 1 gallon batches so a packet lasts 5 brews.
 
I had previously stopped using s-04 as all my beers brewed with it had a distinct yeasty-tang that as you said, got stronger as it aged. I even entered one of the beers into a comp (it was a special bitter) to see what the judges thought. The beer scored a 33 and one of the judges commented that the beer tasted like I had used s04 and fermented it too high. He was right.

Now whenever I use s04 I ferment it as low as it will tolerate. No more off flavors.

Bierhaus! where have you been? update your blog please.

but on topic, what is the lowest you've had a decent ferment with S04? It struggles in the 16C range and often flocs out early. It seems to have a very narrow temp range that makes decent beer (17-19C).
 
That post was from 7 years ago.....

That explains why his blog has not been updated.

I didn't read this whole thread, but has anyone mentioned that S-04 is just gross? I know it's preference, but I haven't liked any beers I have done with it, and they all have a similar bad taste to me. I know that it likes to be kept cooler than 68-70, which makes it a less than ideal homebrew yeast, especially for beginners with no temp control.

Unfortunately, it is the go-to British style yeast. I don't use it anymore because I realized I don't like it. I could try it again and keep it cool.
 
That explains why his blog has not been updated.

I didn't read this whole thread, but has anyone mentioned that S-04 is just gross? I know it's preference, but I haven't liked any beers I have done with it, and they all have a similar bad taste to me. I know that it likes to be kept cooler than 68-70, which makes it a less than ideal homebrew yeast, especially for beginners with no temp control.

Unfortunately, it is the go-to British style yeast. I don't use it anymore because I realized I don't like it. I could try it again and keep it cool.

Even worse than the temp control is that it tastes gross with any yeast in suspension which makes it a bad bottle conditioner but I think its probably better than US-05 because it is a decent flocculater. Its a little fussy (as are all the british yeasts) but it can make a good beer if you keep it under 19C (which doesn't require a fridge or anything fancy), let it floc out fully and keg. Figuring it out is one of my current brewing goals.
 
I guess I just don't see any advantage of it for me with the beers I make. I love WLP004 Irish Ale for Irish Red, but use US-05 for most others.
 
I also got an off-flavor with the s-04 on apple cider but after racking it, after only 12 hours it improved considerably. It's a funny yeast when used for cider and I was worried there for a second but it's all ok now. It is a fast fermenting yeast after all. it only took 6 days for the first fermentation. I'm not an expert 'cause it's only my third time making cider but I have faith in it. I tasted it today, after like 12 hours since I racked and it tastes allot better and I'm sure tomorrow the funny taste will be completely gone. In my case I would say, if it doesn't smell bad just rack it and give it time. I fermented at 21-22 C.
 

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