"Rinsing the Grain Bed"?

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Yup and you have to vorlauf again. In order for the vorlauf to work, you have to let it settle at least a little. Just try the fly sparge folks, seriously.

I seem to suck at fly sparging. I've now gone back to batch sparging and vorlaufing with my march pump. With the pump it's extremely efficient and a total breeze. It has been an improvement for me. (But then I'm pretty sure I was fly sparging wrong)
 
Right but 1 rinse isn't going to collect all the sugars present. I think in terms of efficiency, doing at least a double batch sparge is important.

What about the BIAB/no sparge folks? Some BIAB folks are pushing 80% efficiency on their systems (or so they say) and they aren't doing a sparge at all.
 
What about the BIAB/no sparge folks? Some BIAB folks are pushing 80% efficiency on their systems (or so they say) and they aren't doing a sparge at all.

The no sparge folks are spending more to make a batch than those of us that sparge. There's no possible way to get the same efficiency with the same grain bill using a no sparge method versus sparging if the sparging is being done correctly.
 
Yup and you have to vorlauf again. In order for the vorlauf to work, you have to let it settle at least a little. Just try the fly sparge folks, seriously.

It's just a matter of time for me I guess. I would rather spend the extra $3.00 on average for grain per batch and save 40 minutes. I hit 75% easily with batch sparging and I'm not that concerned with getting any higher. To me, consistently knowing what % I'll hit is WAY more important than trying to reach 80 or 85% and not always hitting it. I have a wife and two young kids and 40 minutes on brew day is priceless. :mug:
 
Yup and you have to vorlauf again. In order for the vorlauf to work, you have to let it settle at least a little. Just try the fly sparge folks, seriously.

That was the coolest thing about the fly sparge, no second vorlauf... Just one constant run to six point five gallons. Saved me a bunch of time, really.
 
Ok, you guys got me wondering about this fly sparge deal. My set up was made with a rectangular cooler with batch sparging in mind. Everything seemed like it would be so easy but the vorlaufing 3 times and double batch sparging is killing me on time. I always figured fly sparging would give me horrible runnings by stirring up the grain bed constantly, but honestly my runnings aren't clear with long vorlaufs when I batch sparge it. I get a pretty clear vorlauf but when pouring the vorlauf back to the cooler I get some grist no matter how careful I am about it. But I've discovered that grist really isn't a big deal and a perfect vorlauf hasn't been necessary

So.....maybe fly sparging will be good for me? But when I batch sparge it I get my water up to 198 F to put into the tun and it cools with the grain to around 170F. So, while fly sparging should I have water this hot or is 170 good enough with the water I already have in the mash tun?

And I wonder why the Gnome's efficiency went down with fly sparging?
 
I don't see the problem with vorlaufing. 2-3 quarts then let it flow. I often use my stove top to heat my sparge water(I make 5-6 gallon brews) so I don't really lose time. I am sure fly sparging is a good way to go but batch sparging is not really problematic.
 
I don't see the problem with vorlaufing. 2-3 quarts then let it flow. I often use my stove top to heat my sparge water(I make 5-6 gallon brews) so I don't really lose time. I am sure fly sparging is a good way to go but batch sparging is not really problematic.

If time isn't an issue for you, I completely agree. If shortening your brew day is important, fly sparging can't be beat.

How can I, the person who has just used "the fly" for his very first time, make this rather bold proclamation?

Collecting 6.5 gallons of wort through a grain bed takes a lot of time. With the fly, you start collecting and never stop until it is completely done. It is analogous to driving to grandma's house and never stopping for gas. The batch process is like driving to grandma's house but stopping to eat along the way.
 
That was the coolest thing about the fly sparge, no second vorlauf... Just one constant run to six point five gallons. Saved me a bunch of time, really.

I dunno, if you saved time by fly sparging, you were doing the batch sparging wrong...at least this was my experience.

Of course, I may be the one doing the fly sparge wrong...I'm under the impression that a fly sparge for a 5 gallon batch (7 gallon pre-boil)should take about an hour of sparging.

A double batch sparge would take maybe 20-25 minutes.
 
It's just a matter of time for me I guess. I would rather spend the extra $3.00 on average for grain per batch and save 40 minutes. I hit 75% easily with batch sparging and I'm not that concerned with getting any higher. To me, consistently knowing what % I'll hit is WAY more important than trying to reach 80 or 85% and not always hitting it. I have a wife and two young kids and 40 minutes on brew day is priceless. :mug:

If time is the ultimate factor you could probably spend another $3.00 on grain and go no-sparge...and save yourself another 20 minutes?

Just sayin':D
 
If time isn't an issue for you, I completely agree. If shortening your brew day is important, fly sparging can't be beat.

How can I, the person who has just used "the fly" for his very first time, make this rather bold proclamation?

Collecting 6.5 gallons of wort through a grain bed takes a lot of time. With the fly, you start collecting and never stop until it is completely done. It is analogous to driving to grandma's house and never stopping for gas. The batch process is like driving to grandma's house but stopping to eat along the way.

I guess we're back to the BIG debate.:D I'm sorry but there is NO way fly sparging is quicker than batch sparging. Why is everyone acting like the vorlauf is time consuming? You're letting 2 quarts run into a pitcher (15 seconds) and then pouring it back in the MLT (15 seconds). We're talking an extra 30 seconds and 90 if you double batch sparge and have to do it 3 times.

One of the big reasons people batch sparge is to save some time. I double batch sparge and hit 75% consistently. My sparge takes 30 minutes tops. There's no way fly sparging is taking you less than 30 minutes. Is it?
 
For anyone who does three batch sparges, what is the gravity of your fourth runnings? I seem to remember something about not wanting your gravity to get below 1016 due to adverse effects on the buffering capabilities of the wort?
 
I dunno, if you saved time by fly sparging, you were doing the batch sparging wrong...at least this was my experience.

Of course, I may be the one doing the fly sparge wrong...I'm under the impression that a fly sparge for a 5 gallon batch (7 gallon pre-boil)should take about an hour of sparging.

A double batch sparge would take maybe 20-25 minutes.

Yep. I fly sparge on my system, usually, but the last few times I"ve been batch sparging. I'll give up 3% efficiency to save 45 minutes.

When you batch sparge, you drain the MLT completely. Add 2 gallons of 190 degree water (to bring the grainbed up to 168), stir it well, open up the ballvalve, and drain to a pitcher. Within a quart, simply turn the end of the hose into the boilkettle and pour the contents of the pitcher over the grain bed. When it runs dry, close the ballvalve and add the rest of the sparge water to the grain bed. Stir like a maniac, open the ballvalve and start draining into the pitcher. Turn the hose into the BK, pour the contents from the pitcher onto the grainbed, and drain the MLT. That takes 15 minutes, max.

Another thing that I like in batch sparging is you can start the first runnings onto boil right away, negating the need for a mash out. So, by the time you've drained the second round of batch sparge runnings, the BK is already near a boil. That also saves time.

For fly sparging, you will add your mash out addition. Then make sure there is at least an inch or more of liquid over the mash, then vorlauf (same as in batch sparging), then drain over the course of 45 minutes to an hour while the HLT slowly keeps the water level the same. After an hour, it should be done. Then you can start the boil.

The fly sparging takes longer, but I will sit and enjoy surfing the internet or have some lunch during the sparge. It probably takes an hour longer total in my brewday.
 
For anyone who does three batch sparges, what is the gravity of your fourth runnings? I seem to remember something about not wanting your gravity to get below 1016 due to adverse effects on the buffering capabilities of the wort?

I don't think most people do three batch sparge additions. Instead, its a draining of the runnings/liquid that was added for the mash (plus a mash out addition fi there was one), then two batch sparge additions.
 
The fly sparging takes longer, but I will sit and enjoy surfing the internet or have some lunch during the sparge. It probably takes an hour longer total in my brewday.

Perhaps I did "the fly" incorrectly. Here's what I did:

1. I mashed in and let it sit for 45 minutes at 150.

2. After vorlaufing, I started collecting into my pot.

2a. I had my 170 degree water poised above the grainbed, because I got that ready during the 45 minute rest. I started adding it at approximately the same rate as I was collecting wort out the bottom (keeping a 1" level above the grainbed).

3. When the 170 degree water in the cooler above was empty, I continued to collect until the grain bed was dry.

Once I started collecting wort, I never stopped...

Did I do it incorrectly?
 
For fly sparging, you will add your mash out addition. Then make sure there is at least an inch or more of liquid over the mash, then vorlauf (same as in batch sparging), then drain over the course of 45 minutes to an hour while the HLT slowly keeps the water level the same. After an hour, it should be done. Then you can start the boil.

The recommended sparge rate for fly sparge is 1 qt/min so to get 6.5 gallons of wort would only take 26 minutes. Are you doing larger batches or something?
 
I guess we're back to the BIG debate.:D I'm sorry but there is NO way fly sparging is quicker than batch sparging. Why is everyone acting like the vorlauf is time consuming? You're letting 2 quarts run into a pitcher (15 seconds) and then pouring it back in the MLT (15 seconds). We're talking an extra 30 seconds and 90 if you double batch sparge and have to do it 3 times.

One of the big reasons people batch sparge is to save some time. I double batch sparge and hit 75% consistently. My sparge takes 30 minutes tops. There's no way fly sparging is taking you less than 30 minutes. Is it?

I like a pretty fine grind on my grain so the vorlauf takes a bit longer for me. Also, if you vorlauf too fast you can over compact the grain bed and get a stuck sparge.

As I said above - the correct rate for fly sparge is 1 qt per minute so to get 6.5 gallons of wort takes 26 minutes (1 gallon every four minutes x 6.5 gallons = 26 minutes)
 
I guess we're back to the BIG debate.:D I'm sorry but there is NO way fly sparging is quicker than batch sparging. Why is everyone acting like the vorlauf is time consuming? You're letting 2 quarts run into a pitcher (15 seconds) and then pouring it back in the MLT (15 seconds). We're talking an extra 30 seconds and 90 if you double batch sparge and have to do it 3 times.

One of the big reasons people batch sparge is to save some time. I double batch sparge and hit 75% consistently. My sparge takes 30 minutes tops. There's no way fly sparging is taking you less than 30 minutes. Is it?

I am very new to all-grain, but I don't understand this either. Obviously every system is different, yadda yadda. But I thought in order to realize the great efficiency of fly sparging, you had to go super slow (45-60 minutes)? Doing two batch sparges takes me like half that time, because I can open the valve full-bore. Like Lodovico said, my wort is as clear as it's going to get after 30 seconds vorlaufing. Not sure how that is the major time killer for people.
 
Another thing that I like in batch sparging is you can start the first runnings onto boil right away, negating the need for a mash out. So, by the time you've drained the second round of batch sparge runnings, the BK is already near a boil. That also saves time.

For fly sparging, you will add your mash out addition. Then make sure there is at least an inch or more of liquid over the mash, then vorlauf (same as in batch sparging), then drain over the course of 45 minutes to an hour while the HLT slowly keeps the water level the same. After an hour, it should be done. Then you can start the boil.

The fly sparging takes longer, but I will sit and enjoy surfing the internet or have some lunch during the sparge. It probably takes an hour longer total in my brewday.

I fly sparge and while I don't do it because I currently only have 1 burner, why couldn't you start bring the mash out liquid to boil prior to having collected the full volume?

Once I drain the mash and prepare to start fly sparging I usually have collected 1/4-1/3 of the total pre-boil volume. By half-way through the fly sparge I would have 2/3rds or so of the final volume and easily could start bringing this to temp. In fact, once I finish fly sparging I still have some period of time to drain the remainder of the wort and even with one burner I can start bringing up to boiling temp before collecting the final volume.
 
My sparge takes 30 minutes tops. There's no way fly sparging is taking you less than 30 minutes. Is it?

I take 60-75 minutes to fly sparge 15 gallon batches and consistently get 82-85% efficiency.

edit: I do go slower if I am doing a big beer or targeting an aggressive efficiency, but even then I aim for ~90 minutes.
 
I am very new to all-grain, but I don't understand this either. Obviously every system is different, yadda yadda. But I thought in order to realize the great efficiency of fly sparging, you had to go super slow (45-60 minutes)? Doing two batch sparges takes me like half that time, because I can open the valve full-bore. Like Lodovico said, my wort is as clear as it's going to get after 30 seconds vorlaufing. Not sure how that is the major time killer for people.

See above - Palmer recommends 1 qt per minute
 
Okay so I didn't consider larger batches. It looks like there is no real difference in time for a five gallon batch, fly might even be faster. But for larger batches, since the runoff rate has to stay the same at 1 qt/min, batch sparge might be faster. Makes sense. Do pro breweries really only run off at 1 qt per minute though? Somehow I doubt it.
 
Okay so I didn't consider larger batches. It looks like there is no real difference in time for a five gallon batch, fly might even be faster. But for larger batches, since the runoff rate has to stay the same at 1 qt/min, batch sparge might be faster. Makes sense. Do pro breweries really only run off at 1 qt per minute though? Somehow I doubt it.

Of course not, but the surface area of their false bottom is also much greater. They are able to rinse/drain much more quickly. There may be other factors at play as well, but I've never worked in a REAL brewery, so I don't know what other mechanisms might be in play here.
 
...my runnings aren't clear with long vorlaufs when I batch sparge it. I get a pretty clear vorlauf but when pouring the vorlauf back to the cooler I get some grist no matter how careful I am about it...

I use a styrofoam plate on top of the grain bed and pour my vorlauf onto it fairly slow. it spills over the sides and spreads out the returning liquid so it doesn't penetrate in one spot. my runnings stay clear that way with no extra work and it's cheap. I have even done the modified fly sparge using that method to keep the water level above the grain bed. learned that on this forum.:mug:
good thread, I learned a few things to modify my methods.;)
 
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