I am getting horrible efficiency and really feel like giving up. HELP!

Hi guys. I've been lurking around here for recipes and whatnot for a while, and I recently got into All Grain. I'm getting efficiencies down in the 50's and under, and for the life of me I CANNOT figure it out, and it's really, really starting to frustrate me. I have 3-4 batches of beer that is pretty far below the ABV standard for the style.

I've been doing mostly lagers lately, so I've been using softer water. I've been doing 2 gal Spring with 3-4gal RO water and the 1tbs of the 5.2 powder to mash with.

I've been doing a 30-min rest at 122 and 60 min at 150, temps are +-2F generally and maintain for the duration.

My mash tun is a 48qt (I think) coleman cooler and I'm using SS mesh off some hose for the filter. It runs about 5/8 of the length of the cooler in the middle and is screwed down on the inside.

I've been lautering and sparging slowly (gave it an hour tonight - combined), and while most of them I've batch sparged, in an effort to get my yeild up I drilled some holes in a hose and did a continuous sparge this time.

My grain bill tonight was 9.5lb american 2-row and .75lb 60L for a Vienna. Boil gravity was 1.026 at 130F and OG is 1.036. Awful. I get my grain crushed at my LHBS, Homebrew Headquarters in Richardson. 1 pass. My next thought is grain crush, but I really don't want to waste more time and money chasing this problem.

I thought maybe it was my hydrometer, the wort tasted very sweet. However, I got a tall glass of RO water and it read dead on 1.00.

I have no f'ing idea what I'm doing wrong. It should NOT be this low. Please help

edit: preboil: 6gal. There's a little under 5 gal in the fermenter, did an hour boil. I use a propane burner and a 7gal pot. I also normally do 6.5gal preboil, but I ran out of sparge water tonight.. I've generally been mashing 2qt/lb, about 1qt/gal for the 122 rest.

my first thoughts are to make sure that your are calculating everything correctly.

How are you measuring volumes?

How are you measuring temperatures? Are you sure your thermometer is accurate?

And, how much water are you mashing with? And how much runnings are you collecting?

How hot is your sparge water? How much water are you sparging? And how much, if any, wort is left in your mash tun?

To add to the questions:
HAve you verified that you are getting amount the grain you paid for?

i would say buy a kit for a max of $25 from northern brewer or the like and see how it turns out, it will rule out crush for sure.

I weigh and mill the grain myself at the brewstore, it's self serve.

Sparge water is 165F. Measuring temps with a floating thermometer, not sure how I can calibrate it since I don't really trust any termometer in this apt.

Measuring volumes from marks I made on my collection bucket by pouring gallons in at at time

I've been mashing 2gal/qt, so for this last batch, 5.25gal. Sparged with 2gal.

Initial runnings was 4gal, as I thought it would be. General loss is .5qt/gal, so I figured a 1.25gal loss.

Nothing left in mash tun.

lithium726 said:

I weigh and mill the grain myself at the brewstore, it's self serve.

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Sounds like you're good there.

lithium726 said:

Sparge water is 165F. Measuring temps with a floating thermometer, not sure how I can calibrate it since I don't really trust any termometer in this apt.

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I'd get at least one more thermometer and check it.

lithium726 said:

Measuring volumes from marks I made on my collection bucket by pouring gallons in at at time

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Those buckets are usually way off on their measurements; at least in my experience.

lithium726 said:

Nothing left in mash tun.

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I haven't heard of anyone that has zero loss in their MLT. Are you sure?

AZ_IPA said:

Those buckets are usually way off on their measurements; at least in my experience.

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They're my own marks, I took a gallon jug of water and filled it up 6 times, each time marking where the water hit

I haven't heard of anyone that has zero loss in their MLT. Are you sure?

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I'm not sure I'm understanding correctly. When I sparge, I put 2 gal in and let it drain until there's nothing coming out anymore. Wouldn't this mean the mash tun is empty?

lithium726 said:

I'm not sure I'm understanding correctly. When I sparge, I put 2 gal in and let it drain until there's nothing coming out anymore. Wouldn't this mean the mash tun is empty?

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If you put in 2 gallons, how much do you retrieve?

AZ_IPA said:

If you put in 2 gallons, how much do you retrieve?

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2 gal. I was right at 6 gal today for my boil volume, and I used 5.25gal to mash, 2gal to sparge... at 1.25gal loss, that's right on.

In the past I've just dumped the sparge water in and let it sit for another 15 mins or so before draining, and come to think of it, the Dos Equis I did a month ago came out with a gravity that was MUCH closer to what it should be than this one, same grain volume, and it was in the mid 1.04's. 1.046 or so iirc. I also got that batch crused at AHS because I was in Austin at the time.

of course, back then I was lautering and sparging WAY too fast, and I figured that was part of my problem.

AZ_IPA said:

If you put in 2 gallons, how much do you retrieve?

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2 gal. I was right at 6 gal today for my boil volume, and I used 5.25gal to mash, 2gal to sparge... at 1.25gal loss, that's right on.

In the past I've just dumped the sparge water in and let it sit for another 15 mins or so before draining, and come to think of it, the Dos Equis I did a month ago came out with a gravity that was MUCH closer to what it should be than this one, same grain volume, and it was in the mid 1.04's. 1.046 or so iirc. I also got that batch crused at AHS because I was in Austin at the time.

of course, back then I was lautering and sparging WAY too fast, and I figured that was part of my problem.

Never mind.....last post answered my supposition.

Ok, I see a couple things.

Your sparge water is WAY too cold. It should be about 200* to raise the temp of your grain bed up to 170*. Also you need to stir like crazy when you first dump the water in. Stirring during the batch sparge is absolutely critical to get the sugars in suspension, and out of the grain.

Also what we talk about with how much wort is left in the mash tun: when you're cleaning out your grains out of the mash tun, how much residual mash liquid is in there with the grains? A cup? A quart? Everyonly has some if it is a quart or two, that could be part of the problem.

200F sparge water? the grain bed is already near 150. I'd say 165F is too cold but I'm not sure about sparging with 200F?

I guess you're right, it depends on the size of the grain bill, and my last 3-4 brews have been 14-16# grain bills, so the 200 number is stuck in my head.

185* is about right for a 10# grain bill, which is still much hotter than 165. Sparging with 165 will bring the grain to about 154-155, not where you want to be sparging at.

motobrewer said:

200F sparge water? the grain bed is already near 150. I'd say 165F is too cold but I'm not sure about sparging with 200F?

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My experience is that it DOES require water over 185 degrees (usually nearly 200 F) to get the grain bed from 153ish to 168 for the first round of batch sparging.

hm, fair enough. maybe that's the reason for my low-ish eff?

i guess i've never even checked the temp of a sparge....

Yooper_Brew said:

My experience is that it DOES require water over 185 degrees (usually nearly 200 F) to get the grain bed from 153ish to 168 for the first round of batch sparging.

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If you double sparge and get the grain bed to 168* by adding 200* water for the first sparge, how hot should the second sparge be? ~170* since the grain bed is already at 168*?

John

johnodon said:

If you double sparge and get the grain bed to 168* by adding 200* water for the first sparge, how hot should the second sparge be? ~170* since the grain bed is already at 168*?

John

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Correct.

Have you run an iodine test to see if you have complete conversion?

I have been getting my grain from this same LHBS, and I have consistently had low efficiency as well. I recently ordered my grain from Austin Homebrew Supply and am curious to see if this solves the problem.

I have yet to do a true mash out and my efficiency is around 80%. I'm not sure we're solving the OP's problem by making him worry about that right now.

lithium726 said:

Sparge water is 165F. Measuring temps with a floating thermometer, not sure how I can calibrate it since I don't really trust any termometer in this apt.

.

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Boil water, does your thermometer read 212F? If so, it is working properly.

(This is assuming you don't live on top of a mountain or inside a decompression chamber.)

Before you start randomly troubleshooting this and that, it would be good to figure out where your losses are. In other words, is your brewhouse efficiency suffering because you are losing out on conversion efficiency or lauter efficiency? In order to determine this, you should brew a batch and fill out this spreadsheet using measurements that are as precise as possible. Then you will know where your losses are and you will have some direction in your troubleshooting. Otherwise you are simply taking shots in the dark and hoping something works.

Good luck!

HickoryMike said:

I have yet to do a true mash out and my efficiency is around 80%. I'm not sure we're solving the OP's problem by making him worry about that right now.

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I'll echo this and add my $.02. I want a picture of the crush you're getting from the LHBS. The crush can play a big role in your efficiency.

jkreuze said:

Boil water, does your thermometer read 212F? If so, it is working properly.

(This is assuming you don't live on top of a mountain or inside a decompression chamber.)

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just make an ice bath in a glass and drop the thermo in... should read 32F

you are doing a sparge, right? As in, running off your mash, THEN adding additional water (stirring, and waiting a bit), and then running off again?

Adding water first and then running everything off in one shot will usually cost you a few points efficiency (but it'll also save you some time).

First, stop trying to fly sparge with a stainless braid. It's not going to help you.

Don't assume the LHBS's mill is set to a reasonably fine enough gap. Take a picture of the grain for us.

I see two potential problems with your process, as you've described it so far.

First, I don't think you're stirring your sparge water into the grain. Again, assuming you go with batch sparging which is what I think you should do with your currently setup, drain your first runnings, add the sparge water at about 185F and stir the hell out of it for 3 minutes straight. Vorlauf and drain, no waiting necessary.

Second, calculate your mash thickness so that your runnings volumes (first and second runnings) are closer to the same volume. Take the example of 10.25 pounds. Let's say you mash with 16 quarts or 4 gallons (it works out to 1.56qts/lb but whatever). That grain will keep about .5qts/lb so your first runnings will be just under 3 gallons. That leaves you with a sparge volume of 3 gallons. See how the two runnings are close to the same volume (3 gallons)? That increase efficiency a bit, but not as much as a better crush or actually stirring sparge water in if you're not already.

I doubt the grain crush is the issue, only becuase I use the same LHBS also, and have never had this problem. Of course, someone very easily could have adjusted the gap since it is self serve. There is another LHBS here in Dallas, for the record, and that's where I've been going lately. It's called Winemkaers Toystore and it's at Beltline and 35. That being said, I have to agree that it sounds your sparge could be the problem. I do 2 sparges of equal amounts after I collect first runnings. Sparge, vorlauf, collect, sparge, vorlauf, collect. Try that and see what happens.

Jason_Merritt said:

Sparge, vorlauf, collect, sparge, vorlauf, collect. Try that and see what happens.

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It's funny you just wrote that here. I was so concerned that I wasn't sparging correctly that when I finally did get it right in my head, I e-mailed myself to have a permanent record when I got home. Here is the content of my e-mail:




John

lithium726 said:

My grain bill tonight was 9.5lb american 2-row and .75lb 60L for a Vienna. Boil gravity was 1.026 at 130F and OG is 1.036. Awful. I get my grain crushed at my LHBS, Homebrew Headquarters in Richardson. 1 pass. My next thought is grain crush, but I really don't want to waste more time and money chasing this problem.

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If your pre-boil gravity was 1.026 at 130F (1.038 adjusted) for 6 gallons, your fermentor (5 gallon) gravity should have been 1.045, around 65% efficiency.

so, did you add water to the boil / fermentor?

hahaha That's greatness! I guess I left out stir, huh!

Adding RO water to spring water could result in water without enough minerals. Poland Spring, for example has very low levels of calcium, thinning that out with RO, which is almost completely devoid of minerals could result in water without enough minerals to mash in. Mix your RO with tap water, or use all spring water, or mix spring water with tap, depending on how hard your water is.

Also, I think that for ten pounds of grain you should be mashing in around 3-3.5 gallons of water, depending on how stiff you like your mash. Then you should be sparging with about 4-4.5 gallons (I use 180-185 deg. F). This will get you about 6-6.5 in the kettle, which should boil down to 5-5.5 over the course of an hour.

Maybe other people have had luck with usAdding RO water to spring water could result in water without enough minerals. Poland Spring, for example has very low levels of calcium, thinning that out with RO, which is almost completely devoid of minerals could result in water without enough minerals to mash in. Mix your RO with tap water, or use all spring water, or mix spring water with tap, depending on how hard your water is.

Also, I think that for ten pounds of grain you should be mashing in around 3-3.5 gallons of water, depending on how stiff you like your mash. Then you should be sparging with about 4-4.5 gallons (I use 180-185 deg. F). This will get you about 6-6.5 in the kettle, which should boil down to 5-5.5 over the course of an hour.

Maybe other people have had luck with using only 2 gallons to sparge with, but I wouldn't recommend it.

I am by no means an efficiency junkie, but since I started brewing, it seems like I can't go under 80% even when I try. I fly sparge quickly (less than 30 minutes) with what I'd call a "braided manifold." I agree with Bobby and think you really need to take a closer look at the crush. Before I did my first all grain batch, I invested in a Barley Crusher. My friend helped me set the gap, and every batch has had almost the exact same efficiency; 82-85%.

Everyone always talks about what great efficiency they get buying from Ed at BMW (~75%) and it is completely due to the crush. I believe your results are consistantly poor because you are consistantly getting a bad crush. It is impossible to convert sugars the water can't get to.

Good Luck,
Joe

Did you (Thread starter) writs that you don't have a Thermometer you trust. Check it with ice water and then with boiling. Buy a $15 thermometer from a cooking supply store, buy two. Take Bobby's advice, it is the simplest and is the procedure most of us use. Also eliminate doubt and do an iodine conversion test. I do not get a complete conversion at 150F in 60 min. Check out Braukaiser.com, he has great articles.

Godspeed Sir Knight

Yooper_Brew said:

My experience is that it DOES require water over 185 degrees (usually nearly 200 F) to get the grain bed from 153ish to 168 for the first round of batch sparging.

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Agreed. Just finished a batch (10lbs of grain) and to get the grain bed from 152 up to 171 I used 205 degree water. Ended up with around 74% efficiency.

First time on this...hope this works. I think 2qts./lb is a very thin mash. The result is that you have so much water in there, that very little (only 2 gals.) of sprage water are used. Spage water should be in the 168 to 170 degree range, BTW. But back to the subject... sparging, or lack thereof, is where you get your effiency increases or decreases. For some, i.e., batch spagers, efficiency is not that important, but for some... it's important. What is most important, however, is that you can predict and hit your target efficiencies or your O.G. is off, sometimes way off. Now, back to the subject at hand [again]... Sparging rinses the converted sugars (from starches) from the mash/grainbed into solution (wort) to the boil kettle. The more sparge water (and sparging), the greater the efficiency. Two gals. of sparge water is way too low (IMHO) for the good efficiency you seek. I used to use 1.3 qts./lb all the time and do a mashout with direct heatng (no bolilng water additions) and got good and predictable effciencies ant hit target O.G. like a champ. Then, I got away from mashout and used variable mash thicknesses, with boling water additions to mimic a mashout (168 degrees) and my effciencies were all over and my targets O.G's started to be missed as well. Other than the mash thickness variable, the other obvious variable was the amount of sparge water and sparging required. Thinner mashes don't need as much. So, if you want better efficiencies go with thicker mashes and more sparging. Sparging (fly or continuous) is not the Holy Grail, however , and batch spargers would/might argue against it. It has limits. One should not sparge past 1.013 or 1.015 as a rule, or you risk astringency. Hope this helps.

jfowler1 said:

I am by no means an efficiency junkie, but since I started brewing, it seems like I can't go under 80% even when I try. I fly sparge quickly (less than 30 minutes) with what I'd call a "braided manifold." I agree with Bobby and think you really need to take a closer look at the crush. Before I did my first all grain batch, I invested in a Barley Crusher. My friend helped me set the gap, and every batch has had almost the exact same efficiency; 82-85%.

Everyone always talks about what great efficiency they get buying from Ed at BMW (~75%) and it is completely due to the crush. I believe your results are consistantly poor because you are consistantly getting a bad crush. It is impossible to convert sugars the water can't get to.

Good Luck,
Joe

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I am an efficency junkie, I would say the crush is the most important. I went from being lucky to get 60 percent to getting 80 percent just by changing the crush. Thats all I changed, dont assume the LHBS is doing it right buy some feeler gauges and check it yourself. If you are paying 1.50 plus a pound for base grain it better be right, that was my attitude.

I agree with Bobby_M.
Don't do a continuous (fly) sparge with a braid. That is almost guaranteed to give you lousy efficiency because of channeling.
Mash thicker (about 1.25 - 1.5 qt per lb). That will give you more sparge water to rinse out the sugars.
After adding the sparge water, stir really well, vorlauf, and then drain. With a batch sparge, it is the stirring that causes the sugars to be dissolved. If you don't stir, you will get very poor efficiency.
I also wouldn't do a protein rest with your grain bill. It's not necessary with modern malts which are fully modified. See http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14-4.html paragraph 3
If you are mashing at temperatures in the range of 150F, I would consider increasing the saccharification rest to 90 minutes. An iodine test shout tell you if this is necessary. I find that mashing at 150F or lower usually requires more than 60 minutes to achieve full conversion.

-a.

Wow, you guys are awesome.

I did think that my og was low given my boil gravity. Maybe the sugars werent mixed in well enough, I'm not sure.

So, for my next batch I'll do this: stiff mash, no temp rests. 90 min (same as before) mash at 150. I'll check my thermometer, but I think it's reading 5* high, it's reading 80 when my apt Tstat reads 75,which could have caused all my mashes to be low. I'll do two sparges and stir like hell, I've got an enormous brewing paddle for stirring, so that shouldn't be an issue. I'll do two smaller sparges.

How fast should I drain the mash? The sparge?

Since someone else is using HBHQ and doesn't have efficiency issues I'll hold off on blaming the crush

In the meantime, will adding some extra light dme with boiled ro water to the fermenter affect taste much? I was thinking about a lb with a small amount of water.

Btw, my tap here is awful. I did two AG batches with it and both came out awful. 's why I changed my water bill. I tasted a stout I made with that bill last might an although good, it tasted a little thin. I'll up the spring water bill.