help!-question on possible stalled stout

OK. So, I got some feedback on this stout yesterday, but I have realized that I might have a problem. I changed out the airlock last night when I took a gravity reading. This morning, there was absolutely no movement in the airlock levels. This stout has been sitting in the secondary for 3 weeks. I plan on bottling it after 4 weeks. Here's my problem: I want to use champagne yeast when I bottle. If it is stalled, should I add the champagne yeast now, and let that ride out a week, and then botle as normal? Should I just let it go, and add the champagne yeast at bottling time? Should I get the current yeast active again, and then also add the champagne yeast at bottle?

any help would be appreciated!

thx

what was the gravity at?

sg 1.090
currently at 1.030

This batch was going gangbusters for the first 4 days, blowing out the 3 piece and all. It was just over 1.033 or so when it went to secondary, but it has been at 1.030 now for over 1 1/2 weeks.

it might not go lower than that. thats a high OG for your typical yeast to ferment all the way down. ive never used champagne yeast , only thought about it, so perhaps im not the best person to answer this, but i'd imagine it would be better to use it at bottling time. ii'd let it sit for another week or so though. someone should either back me up though, or coorect me about when to pitch the champagne yeast. you better make sure its completely donr fermenting though before you bottle.

I am pretty certain that it is done fermenting, as there has been little/no activity in over a week. My concern is that it is just stalled, and when I add the champagne yeast at bottling time, it kicks it off again and I have a couple cases of exploding bottles.

anyone out there concur/differ with Drengel?

i've never used champagne yeast, but I think I would want to pitch it several days prior to bottling.

If there is sugar left to be fermented in there, the champagne yeast will do it and the gravity will drop to a TRUE final gravity (as opposed to the gravity that the ale yeast stopped working at). The champagne yeast should be able to handle even more sugar than remains, so after fermetation is done feed a little priming sugar to the still-hungry champagne yeast and put into the bottles...

I, too, would be scared of adding champagne yeast and bottling immediately if there is still sugar in the brew to be converted. That might make a big BOOM!

-walker

I am inclined to agree with you Walker, as that seems the safest way to avoid the bottle-armageddon that I am concerned about. Question is whether there are, in fact, enough fermentables left to sustain the pitched champagne yeast until bottle day. It is at 1.030, but I thought that stouts contained a sizeable amount of non-fermentables. Would it be best to take a sample out, and make a mini-starter with it to see if I get any action?

Truble said:

I am inclined to agree with you Walker, as that seems the safest way to avoid the bottle-armageddon that I am concerned about. Question is whether there are, in fact, enough fermentables left to sustain the pitched champagne yeast until bottle day. It is at 1.030, but I thought that stouts contained a sizeable amount of non-fermentables. Would it be best to take a sample out, and make a mini-starter with it to see if I get any action?

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Yeah.. if I were in your shoes, I'd either take a sample and pitch the yeast into it for the mini-starter... OR... just make a fresh starter with some DME and that champagne yeast. You will have billions of yeast in that starter, so I'm sure there will be enough active to carbonate when it comes bottling time.

as for there being a sizeable amount of non-fermentables in a stout.. this is true only if you used a sizeable amount of extract (you are an extract brewer, right?) or if you used an extract with a lot of non-fermentables.

For reference, my stout had about 7 lbs of extract in it. OG: 1.080. It finished just uner 1.030. However, my extract was a high-dextrin brand (Laaglander) which is only 65% fermentable. SO, for me... 1.030 was fine. If I had used 'regular' extract, I would have expected it to get down another 10 points or so.

What was your recipe?

-walker

Well, that is the interesting part- I completely screwed it up, and went way overboard with everything- that is why I have been letting it sit so long-to mellow out, which it is doing

Extract
Alexanders Dark LME 6.6 lbs
Muntons Dark DME 4lbs

For a 45 minute steep at 160*F
Black Patent Malt 1.5lb (Muntons English Grain)
Roasted Barley 1lb (Muntons English Grain)
Chocolate Malt 1 lb (Munotns English Grain)

i wouldn't say you screwed it up. that amount of extract is perfect for a big-ass imperial stout. the amount of grain is quite a bit higher than I would have used, so you are right that it probably needs some time to mellow out, but those grains are not providing ANY sugar to your brew (they are all roasted and the starches were burned off)... just flavor and color.

all your sugar is coming from the extract, and you should end up in the 1.020 to 1.030 range.

I'd say make the starter and pitch it. see if the gravity changes after 4 or 5 days. then prime and bottle.

cool. Technically, I did screw it up, since I had bought extra grain to have on hand, and inadvertantly added it all

Very strong good taste, but it mellows with every day. I tested some last night, and even SWMBO like it...and she hates stouts. I will pick up the yeast and make a starter, and pitch most likely on Sunday or Monday.

Adding the yeast a few days before bottling is a good idea. The yeast will process all of the easy sugars first. I would NOT add any priming sugar. Champagne yeast will continue to work on the heavier suagr chains and give you some carbonation, but unless you plan on putting it in champagne bottles, no primer.

None? What if the beer is done fermenting, though. Wouldn't that mean that there wouldn't be enough sugar to carbonate?

Well, for kicks I gave it a shake yesterday and I think it might be active again. the airlock pressurized as gas was realease that was already in the liquid. I loosened the stopper to equalize, and when I got home from school late last night, the airlock had pressurized. I loosened the stopper again to equalize, and then this morning the airlock is back pressurized. I think that it is still going, then, even though at a very slow rate. I am still going to pitch thee champagne yeast early, though.

I wouldn't use champagne yeast at all. If you feel the need to re-pitch, go with a neutral strain. If your gravity isn't where you want it in a few days, I'd re-pitch with something like Safale US-56, and give it a few days.

Personally, I think you'll get it about where you want it by giving it more time, and swirling your fermenter occasionally. I think with champagne yeast, you risk drying the beer out really bad (not good for an imp. stout), and/or bottle bombs.

Edit: What yeast did you use, originally?

I originally used a dry ale yeast that I made a mini-starter out of. I am not so concerned about the gravity, as the beer already moved from 090 to 030. I just want to make sure that the yeast is viable to condition. I have read that people have had good results with the carbonation of a stout using champagne yeast. That is the reason that I wanted to try it. Are you saying that using it is riskier?

Truble said:

I originally used a dry ale yeast that I made a mini-starter out of. I am not so concerned about the gravity, as the beer already moved from 090 to 030. I just want to make sure that the yeast is viable to condition. I have read that people have had good results with the carbonation of a stout using champagne yeast. That is the reason that I wanted to try it. Are you saying that using it is riskier?

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Yes, it is highly attenuative. It'll keep going until there's practically no sugar left. I think it's a recipe for bottle bombs, considering how high the gravity of this beer is going to be at bottling. I think repitching with something a little less aggressive would be a better idea, if you really feel that you need to repitch at all.

That's just my take...

Oh yeah...you state that your concern is that the yeast is done. And you're probably right. That's why you add priming sugar, to give the yeast a little more to eat, and carb your beer up.

OK. So, even though there is a fair amount of sediment at the bottom, there should be enough yeast still in suspension to do the job? I know that it is not an issue with secondaries that go a week or two, but I have never done one that went a month, and I just want to make sure that it conditions properly. What about the thought that champagne yeast in a stout will provide a nice fine creamy head? That is the only reason that I planned on using it.

Should I just re-pitch a little more ale yeast a few days prior to bottling to be sure?

I have to admit that I've never heard of using a champagne yeast in a stout for the fine carbonation. Intriguing....I'd like to know where you heard (or read) that. Maybe I'm misinformed.

My thinking, though, is this: You should have enough yeast in suspension to do the job with some priming sugar. By priming it, you have direct control over how much fermentables are going in. By using champagne yeast, I don't think you have nearly that much control, and with your gravity still being high, there's no telling how far down that yeast will go. It would spook me to bottle it.

Sorry you're getting contradictory info....I don't mean to cause you any grief. Just trying to be the voice of reason here. I get antsy when people start talking about champagne yeast in beer.

BTW, I let one go for a little over 2 mos in secondary, and it carbed just fine primed with corn sugar.

Got to poking around elsewhere, and found this: http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=45767&hl=champagne

Well, as this is my first stout, and given the high numbers, I think I will just letr it condition with what's in it, since........IT'S ALIVE!!!! I needed to move it while I was cleaning the floors, so I decided to give it another shake and also put it in a warm water bath in the sink for a spell. within 30 minutes, I witnessed the sirlock burping a little, and there are more bubbles, etc, on the surface. I think that it might be fine. With airlock activity now, it should be no problem to prime it and bottle it next weekend with the yeast that is in it, no?

Forgive me if my posts are ranting, it's just that I have a lot of time in this one, and it is also my most expensive ingredient combo so far, so I want it to be good.

I think I had better relax and have a homebrew for a cleaning break. My Banshee Red Ale gets better every day! The stout will still be there next weekend.

I think you'll be fine. Best of luck!

I have something similar going on with my stout.

It's now been in the primary for 2 weeks. I opened it this morning, and there was yeast slurry covering just about the entire top of the beer. I took a gravity reading and it was at 1.020, so I decided to go ahead and rack it to secondary.

What's up with the pond scum on the top of the batch?

I dunno....seems like the yeast have a mind oi their own.

I suspect that the longer ferment times are due to the cooler weather. My IPA is taking it's sweet time, too.

I didn't have the scum, but I did have some hyperactive yeast in the beginning. When I racked to secondary, it stayed clear. Well, it stayed as clear as a stout can be! I can't see a 100W bulb held on the other side of the carboy through mine. Total times for mine will be 1 wk primary, 4 wks secondary, and 2 wks bottled before I test. That will put it right on X-mas. The test bottle is my present to myself.

I figure that this won't be nice and aged for drinking until late January to start.


<<EDIT::Culprit FOUND- I had been storing my secondary in our pantry, which is a nice temp for fermentation...usually. Since we have been running our heat more, the pantry gets too hot, so the wife closed the register, and it has been just cool enough to stifle the ale yeast.

I keep my house in the 68-71 range, and Wyeast's site states the following about their irish ale:

Wyeast's Web Site said:

This yeast ferments extremely well in dark roast worts. Beers fermented in the lower temperature range produce dry and crisp beers to fruity beers with nice complexity in the upper range. Ester production is enhanced and rich with fermentation temperatures above 64º F, (18º C). Flocculation is low to moderate with filtration typically required. Alcohol tolerance is approximately 10-11% ABV. Flocculation - medium; apparent attenuation 71-75%. (62-72° F, 16-22° C)

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Yeah- the temp was maybe as high as the low end of that. Given the temp and the alcohole tolerance, I would say that was the problem. With the warmer resting spot now, it seems to be doing fine.