Please let me know how this starter sounds?

Sorry for posting yet another starter question, but on my last thread it seemed to get lots of disagreement.

Ok, so I am going to be brewing up a porter.... its Jamils Shallow Grave, with an OG of 1.070.

I am using white labs WLP001 Cal Ale yeast. It has a production date of 1/24/13.

Id like to brew this Friday, so I am going to make a smaller starter with 2 vials, rather then a larger starter with one vial. Sooooo, according to Mr. Malty and Yeast Calc, I need 253 billion cells. Since I do not have a scale, I am going to go with what white labs list on their site and go with 4 cups of water and a 1/2 cup of DME.. I will add yeast nutrient to the boil with the DME, then cool it down and pitch 2 vials of yeast. I will leave it on a stir plate for 24 hours ( is this enough time, or should I go longer?), then cold crash it for one day so I can decant.

Keeping in mind I want to brew Friday, what would be my best approach in regards to time on stir plate, and if I will have time to decant? If I need to leave on stir plate longer, how offensive would it be to just pitch the whole starter and not decant?

Do my volumes of water/dme/yeast sound right?

Another question for a later brew: If I want to get away with only using 1 vial of yeast for a starter ( same aged yeast, and a 1.074 OG), could I do a 2 stage starter? Do a 1 liter with one vial, stir plate/decant, then add another liter of wort, stir plate and decant? Would this build up enough yeast? If I plan enough in advance, seems like this is a good way to go while spending less on buying more yeast?

Thanks guys

Don't use two vials, yeast is pricy. DME is cheaper. Make a larger starter if you can.

gcdowd said:

Don't use two vials, yeast is pricy. DME is cheaper. Make a larger starter if you can.

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Got it.... I wanted to avoid the big starter based on my last experience. Last go I used too much DME (2 cups and 2 liters of water), and I had major blow off which went all over. I do have a 2000 ml flask, but it could not handle it. Would I be safe going with 1 cup dme and a liter of water? What's the minimum time I would need to leave on the stir plate in order to build up the yeast cell count to 254 ?

arborman said:

Got it.... I wanted to avoid the big starter based on my last experience. Last go I used too much DME (2 cups and 2 liters of water), and I had major blow off which went all over. I do have a 2000 ml flask, but it could not handle it. Would I be safe going with 1 cup dme and a liter of water? What's the minimum time I would need to leave on the stir plate in order to build up the yeast cell count to 254 ?

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I think a 1 liter starter would be enough but I'd do 1.5L. Make a starter with an OG of about 1.04 gravity. My starters are usually done in 24-36 hours on my plate. Then cold crash, decant, pitch

Oh, use grams if you can. 100 grams DME to 1L.

1/2 cup is about 100g. On a stir plate you'll grow about 1-2 billion cells per gram so that's a total of 300 billion cells.
Kai's calculator works on this principle: http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/
And it's what I have seen as well: http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2013/02/cell-growth-as-function-of.html

However! Starting with two vials your final cell count will be 300 billion cells or 300 million per milliliter which is pretty much the top limit for cell density. You would be better off putting one tube in the fridge until brew day and pitching the other tube in the starter. 200 million per ml is a more reasonable final density. High inoculation rates lead to propagation times, but do not create more cells.

and some back up experiments if you are really curious:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2013/01/starter-cell-growth.html
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2012/12/yeast-cell-growth-observations.html

24 hours, however, is not enough time.
see here: http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2013/02/side-by-side-starters-part-1-of-4.html

WoodlandBrew said:

1/2 cup is about 100g. On a stir plate youll grow about 1-2 billion cells per gram so that's a total of 300 billion cells.

24 hours, however, is not enough time.

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Really? How long then? My starters have fully fermented in that time. Is the yeast still growing after that?

Oh man, getting mixed input again

So, if I want to brew Friday, have all I need (stir plate, 2000 ml flask, 2 vials of yeast) what would you guys recommend I do?

If I were brewing Friday, I would make my starter tonight, 1.5L, put it on the plate. On Thursday night, take it off and cold crash it. Take it out of the fridge Friday morning and decant most of the liquid (leave enough to swirl yeast around) and let it warm to room temp while I brew. Then pitch when the wort is ready

Use one as a starter, and use the other at pitch time. 36 hours on plate and 24 in fridge to decant. IMO it is completely offensive ti dump nearly a half gallon of piss beer into your wort. That can change a lot.

Needs a new throwout bearing.

I'd say at least 48 hours on the stir plate, make a 1.5L starter with 5.2oz. of DME with one vial. That will get you in the 250b cell range, which is about what you need for this beer.

Great, thanks guys. I'll do the 1.5 liter with one vial for 24 hrs, then cold crash Thursday night to decant for use on Friday. Really appreciate the help here

arborman said:

Great, thanks guys. I'll do the 1.5 liter with one vial for 24 hrs, then cold crash Thursday night to decant for use on Friday. Really appreciate the help here

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I think you should consider leaving it on the plate a bit longer. Crashing it is nice because you can decant some of the wort, but it won't drastically affect the beer if you can't decant it all. Even crashing it for a few hours will have an affect.

mike024 said:

Use one as a starter, and use the other at pitch time. 36 hours on plate and 24 in fridge to decant. IMO it is completely offensive ti dump nearly a half gallon of piss beer into your wort. That can change a lot.

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Hey Mike,

I'm not sure what you mean by this?

arborman said:

Hey Mike,

I'm not sure what you mean by this?

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He means you should decant your starter, not pitch the whole thing

tre9er said:

I think you should consider leaving it on the plate a bit longer. Crashing it is nice because you can decant some of the wort, but it won't drastically affect the beer if you can't decant it all. Even crashing it for a few hours will have an affect.

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Whoops, I meant to say 48 hrs on the plate. Thanks for the heads up

I still can't hear anything.

gcdowd said:

He means you should decant your starter, not pitch the whole thing

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Got that gcdowd, not sure what he meant by use one for a starter then the other on brew day? Does he mean I should pitch the starter made with one vial and then also pitch the other vial of yeast I have?

arborman said:

Got that gcdowd, not sure what he meant by use one for a starter then the other on brew day? Does he mean I should pitch the starter made with one vial and then also pitch the other vial of yeast I have?

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Don't do that. A 1.5L starter is perfect. Why waste yeast?

Not sure, I would save the extra vial and use it for your next brew.

gcdowd said:

Not sure, I would save the extra vial and use it for your next brew.

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Yeah, I will do that.... Thanks!