Milk Oatmeal Stout - FG 1.034 - no sign of fermentation for 5 days.

Ok, I brewed the following on the 30th of December (I know, bare with me here).

Jake's Oatmeal Milk Stout

Grains/Extract
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6 lbs Munich (Amber) LME
1 lb ESB/Mild Malt
1 lb Roasted Barley
.5 lb Crystal 120L
.25 lb Chocolate Malt
1 lb Flaked Oats

Hops
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1.5 oz Styrian Goldings (3.5% Alpha) @ 60 minutes
1 oz Tettnang (4.5% Alpha) @ 45 minutes

Additions
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1 lb Lactose @ 10 minutes

Yeast
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WLP002 - White Labs English Ale Yeast

I steeped the grains at 155F for 60 minutes prior to a nice active 60 minute boil.

The OG was 1.070, fermentation started within a 6-7 hours.

For the first few days everything went fine, nice krausen, plenty of activity. I left it covered and in a room with a consistent temp. The thermometer on the carboy showed a consistent temp of about 69 degrees.

On the afternoon of the 3rd, I checked on the beer, the airlock was silent and the krausen had fallen (mostly). I took a gravity reading and it was at 1.034. The next morning, I swirled it around a bit (carefully) and decided to let it sit. There have been no signs of fermentation since, but I have been patient. I took a reading a few minutes ago and it's still at 1.034.

Even if the yeast only reached it's minimum attenuation of 63% it should still be closer to 1.026. Currently the ABV level is just shy of 5%, so that shouldn't be an issue.

I'm really not trying to be alarmist, but I think I have a stuck fermentation. Now, I didn't use a starter when I pitched the yeast (probably mistake number 1), but I'm wondering if I should pitch a packet of Nottingham to try to bring the gravity down another point or so?

Yes, you would definitely want a starter with a 1.070 OG.

With 5% ABV already, I think a yeast packet might have a hard time on its own, but what do I know. I am still a noob and don't know much in the way of troubleshooting. I guess I would pitch new yeast with a starter, but I will defer to someone else more experienced. I'm just guessing by what I've read.

Just out of curiosity, have you check the accuracy of your hydrometer in distilled water?

Warped04 said:

Just out of curiosity, have you check the accuracy of your hydrometer in distilled water?

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Yeah, I did and it's fairly accurate. That is one of the first things I checked.

Im just a noob but if it was me for high gravity beers I would aerate the crap out if it, add yeast nutrients and have a sufficient number of yeast cells whether it is a starter or double pitching. I think those 3 things will help prevent fermentation that has stalled. But again I never brewed a high gravity beer yet this is just from what I read.

Do a search there is a graph on the gravity, volume of water i.e 5 gallons, and the recommended yeast cells than compare it to the manufacturer website on how many yeast cells per packet or for making a starter there is a graph for a gravity of .040 and 2 quarts of water with this many starting yeast cells at the end there will be this many billions of yeast cells.

Lactose is an unfermentable sugar as far as your yeasties are concerned. That is what you are seeing with your hydrometer. I don't think you are going to get it any lower than it already is.

Oh, and DON'T aerate it now. It is too late for that. The only thing you really could have done would have been to eliminate some of the lactose. You will have a fairly sweet beer.

I did aerate both the wort and the top off water quite well (at brew time), however I did not add any nutrients or use a starter/double pitch. Just to keep it in perspective, a good .006 to .01 of the gravity reading is due to the addition of the 1 lb of lactose, so the actual fermentable gravity was closer to 1.060. Either way, I know I should have used a starter.

bull8042 said:

Lactose is an unfermentable sugar as far as your yeasties are concerned. That is what you are seeing with your hydrometer. I don't think you are going to get it any lower than it already is.

Oh, and DON'T aerate it now. It is too late for that. The only thing you really could have done would have been to eliminate some of the lactose. You will have a fairly sweet beer.

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I understand about the lactose, but both promash and beersmith showed an expected final gravity of around 1.024, after the lactose addition which adds .006-.010 to the gravity. This is still an entire point lower than where it is at now. I tasted the beer when I did my gravity test last night and the flavor is good, but a tad sweet (which is to be expected in an Oatmal Milk Stout). Does a .010 difference in FG fall within the expected or acceptable range of variance? The OG was only .002 higher than what both beersmith and promash indicated I should expect (1.070 actual vs. 1.068 expected), so seemed to be on target.

From what I've seen, most recipes for oatmeal stout end up around 1.015, so even with the addition of the 1 lb of lactose, I should still be seeing an FG around 1.025.

jharres said:

Yeah, I did and it's fairly accurate. That is one of the first things I checked.

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Nice. Honestly, I'd be very cautious bottling a 1.034 beer. Bottle bombs scare me too much. What is the temperature of the beer now. You said you kept it a nice 69 thoughout right?

Warped04 said:

Nice. Honestly, I'd be very cautious bottling a 1.034 beer. Bottle bombs scare me too much. What is the temperature of the beer now. You said you kept it a nice 69 thoughout right?

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To be honest, that is one of the things I am most worried about. Bottle bombs would end my brewing quicker than it started (SWMBO would NOT be happy).

The temp in the carboy has been consistent at about 69 degrees (excepting, of course, the couple degree raise when fermentation started to take off). It's currently at 69 degrees and is in a room that is fairly consistent in terms of temperature stability.

I'd rouse it (lightly swirl the carboy to get the yeasties back in suspesion). If the gravity doesn't change at all, I would pitch a packet of dry yeast S-04. But that's what I would do.

Sit on it for a while I bet the gravity will come down more, if it is in a cold place maybe try to get it into a more ideal condition around 65-70. You would be surprised what maybe a couple of extra weeks in the primary may do to that beer. And as others have stated if nothing is happening pitch some dry yeast in there.

Warped04 said:

I'd rouse it (lightly swirl the carboy to get the yeasties back in suspesion). If the gravity doesn't change at all, I would pitch a packet of dry yeast S-04. But that's what I would do.

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I tried to rouse it on the third with no affect. On that note though, I'm wondering if it would be useful to stick my racking cane in there and gently swirl it around a bit. I know that WLP002 has a high flocculation, so I'm wondering if the yeast has completely fallen out of suspension? Is that realistic?

farmbrewernw said:

Sit on it for a while I bet the gravity will come down more, if it is in a cold place maybe try to get it into a more ideal condition around 65-70. You would be surprised what maybe a couple of extra weeks in the primary may do to that beer. And as others have stated if nothing is happening pitch some dry yeast in there.

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The temp has been consistent. Ambient room temp at about 70-71 degrees and temp in the carboy (based on a fermentometer) has been consistent at 68-69 degrees.

Just so I understand, are you saying I should wait a couple more weeks before pitching dry yeast (assuming there is no change, of course)?

if you are going to keg I would put priming sugar in and see if that jump start it. It can't hurt

kryolla said:

if you are going to keg I would put priming sugar in and see if that jump start it. It can't hurt

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Unfortunately kegging is not an option right now (mainly due to the fact that I don't have the equipment), as such it will be bottled. I thought about putting a bit of sugar in there to see if it would stir up the yeast a bit, but was afraid that I would just make it worse.

So I've been doing some reading on the White Labs site and apparently with the "Very High" flocculation of WLP002, it's common for it to settle in the trub. They recommend stirring the wort quite a lot at the beginning to get it suspended. I did stir it up quite a lot after pitching and it was fermenting quite well, so I know the yeast is good. I'm just wondering if it's fallen into the trub at the bottom (I have about an inch or so) and is not doing anything because of it.

Do I risk anything by actually stirring up the trub (gently of course, so as not to aerate/oxygenate)?

I don't think you risk anything by stirring it up, it is covered with a blanket of Co2 right now so you can't oxidize it, it would need longer to clear afterward... if it wasn't a stout

My oatmeal milk stouts ended at 1.020 with OG around 1.060 so you should get some more attenuation out of that yeast.

Cool, thanks. I'll give it a stir this evening. Hopefully that will get it going again.

Just make sure you santatize that bad boy . Let us know.

I don't know if this is within your means but ...
A foolproof method (suggested by Evan! here) is to brew a small beer with the same yeast and rack the stout to that yeast cake when primary fermentation has finished. It works. I just did it.

Alright, so I did give the beer a good stir yesterday evening around 5PM (with a cleaned and sanitized racking cane). It initially looked promising, but as of this morning (14 hours later) it's flat as it was before I stirred it.

I'll give it a couple of days and see if the gravity changes, but if not, I'm pretty seriously thinking of pitching a packet of Nottingham.

Please keep us posted. Newbie's like me need to learn off experiences like this one. Thanks.

I most certainly will. This has been a good learning experience for me as well.

Ok, as of this morning, no change. I have some Nottingham on the way. Should I pitch a packet of Nottingham, or would I be better off getting another vial of WLP002? I really just want to drop the FG by about a point, maybe a little less (considering my use of lactose).

On a side note, from looking at Mr. Malty's pitching rate calculator, I should have either pitched 2.5 vials or used a 3 liter starter. Lesson learned.

Mr Malty Pitching Rate Calculator
OG: 1.070
Volume: 5 Gallons

Yeah, you really should have made a starter. It really makes a huge difference. But hey, you learned. I'm sure the beer will finish and turn out fine.

Ok, pitched an 11g packet of Nottingham this evening. Hopefully this will be enough to drop it by a point. It's not visibly doing anything yet. Of course, it's only been a few hours though. I'll let it ride for a few days and do another reading.

Any word on if the Nottinghams helped your stout out?

Yes, so it did kick up a little bit again and it succeed in dropping it by about .007 within two days. After that it stayed at 1.027 for three days. I finally decided to bottle it on Saturday evening. The Nottingham did dry it out a bit, as it wasn't nearly as sweet as it was before, however, it's quite thick (not necessarily a bad thing, as I like thick stouts).

When I bottled it, rather than using the standard 3/4 cup corn sugar, I used about a half a cup instead. I am hoping for a lighter carbonation, but just in case there are still fermentables in the beer, I'm hoping this will give me enough barrier not to create bottle bombs as well. Will have to see how it turns out.

This batch has taught me three very important lessons. 1) MAKE A STARTER! 2) Sparge the steeped grains instead of wringing them out. 3) Pay closer attention to the attenuation and flocculation of the yeast I'm using. I'll keep you guys posted as to how the beer turns out, however, I probably will wait a good two weeks before I open the first one.

One question I do have for those who are more experienced in the brewing arts is; Would it be beneficial to use yeast nutrients in larger beers such as this one or is a healthy starter sufficient?

Ok, I lied, I couldn't wait 2 weeks (but I did make it 10 days). The beer is good! It's begun to mellow and blend and is rather yummy. It's not as sweet as I feared and actually has a nice smooth flavor to it.

I'm glad it turned out well! I don't add the yeast nutrients, but I do make a nice starter, and it usually works.

Ok, few month later update... This has actually turned out to be one of the better beers I've brewed. After a couple of months of aging, it's quite nice, although I don't think the oatmeal part came through as much as I'd have liked. I took a few bottled to our local homebrew club meeting and it received great reviews, scoring as high as 40 for a sweet stout.

My next step is to try an all grain version of this. Hopefully the oatmeal will come through better with a true mash instead of just a steeping.

One thing that I need to figure out is what kind of yeast to use. With the combination of the WLP002 and the Nottingham, I think I got the best of both worlds, in that I got the light fruitiness and esters of the WLP002 and the dry finish of the Nottingham. I suppose I could pitch WLP002 and monitor it until it gets close to done, crash it and then finish with some Nottingham, but I'd rather just use one yeast for predictability. Anyone have any suggestions?