Is all grain supposed to be hard?

I have never brewed extract... I know nothing about it so it intimidates me. Just for perspective.

I brewed an extract batch for my first, then extract with steeping grains, then went AG and have to say I think I had a harder time trying to figure the difference between partial mash and all grain till I realized it was the SAME PROCESS. Your just "mashing" base malt and "steeping" the specialty grains. Cut it any way you like it's all the same process.
Grain+hot water+time=wort
Wort+yeast+more time=beer.
And it really is just that easy. I had a harder time trying to decide if I wanted to fly or batch sparge than I did "figuring out" mashing.
As said earlier. It's only has to be as complex as you want it to be.

I'm almost done getting AG stuff together. I was intimidated by it for a while but mostly because of all the different equipment you can buy. Once I got looking around on here and look at the catalogs with a clearer head I realized that's its not as scary and decided to start getting my AG brewery together. I did have a similar experience at my LHBS when I was buying stuff for a partial mash and they were telling me I needed a mash tun and everything and I should just buy their oatmeal stout recipe. I really wish I had another LHBS.

Denny said:

This is a presentation I did at 2010 NHC about going all grain....

http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2010/Moving_to_Mashing-Denny_Conn.pdf

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Great presentation Denny. To the point, simple and fun.. That's what brewing really is!

at $5/lb.. i hate buying extract... especially for the beers I like to make.

I started out extract brewing with a small kettle on the stovetop, using icewater to cool the wort and get volume for pitching yeast. Liquid transfer consisted of pouring water into a bucket, racking to a bottling bucket, and using a bottling wand. Simple, effective, cost only one pot. Recipes are like making hot chocolate, add syrup and or powder to hot water.

The switch to all grain CAN include quite a bit of equipment costs, however I sourced everything for my mash tun plus a cooker plus an 11 gallon kettle new, and used 316 stainless fittings, and I am still under $200. I don't rack to a second vessel either, I leave it on the cake till I bottle. Many things can start to add costs, and many make them sound like necessary steps to making good beer, and it's just not so. Many make it out to be this intimidating task, but the reality is, you follow a recipe. That recipe can be complicated, or simple, and it is a lot like making coffee. Award winning beer has been made with very simple processes on very basic equipment setups. If you like, or even just are ok with variety, you can stop here. Gaining real consistency and repeatability can bring on a whole new slew of requirements, anything from knowing ambient temperature and being able to control your cooker, to an automated setup....

I think many people who are interested get confused by those who make claims about something being the best way to make the best beer, and then they get lost. This is one of the biggest problems with the internet, and this forum as well. there are literally thousands of threads about the same topic, each with different responses (I missed my og, fly or batch, etc). Read through it all, sort the wheat from the chaff for yourself, and you will find what works for you. It takes time to do it. Once I found the stickies, it went a lot faster though.

We will all encounter turds in all hobbies. I fooled around with extract brewing about ten years ago and never felt like I was getting the results I wanted, I stopped and decided to go AG once I hade the time and money and space, that was ten years ago, I'm now gathering all the parts and equipment to build a single tier system. The system will consist of three kegs with tops cut off and feature a HERMS system controlled buy a PID, build thread to follow soon, any way my point is we should do what we feel comfortable doing, dam the naysayers!

GilSwillBasementBrews said:

Grain+hot water+time=wort
Wort+yeast+more time=beer.
And it really is just that easy.

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Yes! For me, once I wrapped my head around that simple fact the rest fell into place. More or less, steeping grain in hot water MAKES EXTRACT. After I realized I could make it, why should I be tricked into spending $5/pound for extract? No wonder the LHBS guy wants me to stay an extract brewer. He probably makes more profit from the extract sales.

It's exactly like making french press coffee.
1. Grind the beans
2. Heat water to a specific temp
3. Add the beans, stir them, and let them steep for a while
4. Drain out the juicy goodness.

Steep for too long, or too hot, and you get bitterness. Keep your process the same only add more beans, and you get a bigger bolder cup of coffee.

I thought making french press coffee was intimidating until I did it. Now I can't imagine drinking coffee any other way. I still make coffee in my coffee maker when I don't have the time, but I can immediately tell the difference. French press coffee is richer and smoother. More flavorful and aromatic. Drip or "K-cup" coffee has a stale and bitter flavor that we've been convinced is normal, but fixable (add cream for the richness and sugar to neutralize the bitter).

zippyclown said:

It's exactly like making french press coffee.
1. Grind the beans
2. Heat water to a specific temp
3. Add the beans, stir them, and let them steep for a while
4. Drain out the juicy goodness.

Steep for too long, or too hot, and you get bitterness. Keep your process the same only add more beans, and you get a bigger bolder cup of coffee.

I thought making french press coffee was intimidating until I did it. Now I can't imagine drinking coffee any other way. I still make coffee in my coffee maker when I don't have the time, but I can immediately tell the difference. French press coffee is richer and smoother. More flavorful and aromatic. Drip or "K-cup" coffee has a stale and bitter flavor that we've been convinced is normal, but fixable (add cream for the richness and sugar to neutralize the bitter).

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Exactly! Amazing how making an excellent cup of coffee is similar to making a good home brew. I recently go into espresso, some will say its too expensive and not worth the effort, much like putting together a good AG set-up it can be pricey but the pay off is worth it, not to mention its much cheaper in the end and WAY more fun. I can't wait till I have my single tier up and running and tasting the fruits of my labor.

I don't think AG is "hard," but it is more finicky than extract. Specifically, you have to pay more attention to temperatures. With extract, you can ignore temperatures. All you need to know is "is it boiling yet?" All grain demands that we nail a very specific temperature range, and that can take a little experience.

As others have mentioned, there is also the added cost of additional equipment, such as the aforementioned thermometer, as well as a scale (for weighing grains), mill (for milling grains), campden and fermcap tablets, irish moss, gelatin or isinglass, a chiller capable of cooling 5.5 gallons of wort rather than merely 3 gallons, a mash tun, possibly an outdoor propane burner, and a bigger boil kettle. But those don't really add much in terms of difficulty - merely expense. To me, the only hard part is nailing that mash temperature.

kombat said:

As others have mentioned, there is also the added cost of additional equipment, such as the aforementioned thermometer, as well as a scale (for weighing grains), mill (for milling grains), campden and fermcap tablets, irish moss, gelatin or isinglass, a chiller capable of cooling 5.5 gallons of wort rather than merely 3 gallons, a mash tun, possibly an outdoor propane burner, and a bigger boil kettle. But those don't really add much in terms of difficulty - merely expense. To me, the only hard part is nailing that mash temperature.

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But hold on, there you go again (the royal "you"). Do I really need all that stuff? Or do I just need a big pot, a big grain bag and a thermometer? I can brew beer without tablets, moss, gelatin, isinglass, a chiller, a mash tun, and a burner. I don't even need a grain mill. What you're referring to is the stuff that comes later when you realize how to refine your own process and save some time. Which is what we're all constantly doing anyway, no matter what end of the spectrum we're at.

Kind of makes me ask how man kind brewed beer when tools such as thermostatically controlled burners, thermometers, and water conditioners were not available, oh wait I know they just did, they built a fire and used sound judgment and common sense. Brewing beer can be as involved and technical and or simple as one needs or wants it to be. In the end if the results are what you want then you have succeeded, if they are not then you will either give up or make the necessary adjustments.

Me being a beginner to the all grain world, I'm going to jump feet first, ask questions and learn along the way, I'll probably brew some really good beers as well as some bad ones, as long as I have fun then I've seceded.

In the pre-prohibition days, brewing was done by women as part of their usual household activities, using equipment that they had in their kitchens.

After homebrewing was legalized in 1978, men came along and added complex process and equipment, within the tolerance of whatever their wives allowed them to have.

zippyclown said:

But hold on, there you go again (the royal "you"). Do I really need all that stuff? Or do I just need a big pot, a big grain bag and a thermometer? I can brew beer without tablets, moss, gelatin, isinglass, a chiller, a mash tun, and a burner. I don't even need a grain mill. What you're referring to is the stuff that comes later when you realize how to refine your own process and save some time. Which is what we're all constantly doing anyway, no matter what end of the spectrum we're at.

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+1 to this. As it is with most things, the entry point to AG brewing is relatively low. With less than $100-200 in equipment additions, most extract brewers can make the switch to AG. A non brewer wanting to start with AG could spend a little more and go from 0 gear to a decent AG set up.

I started brewing in the days when Papazian's first book was the dominant home brew text. It wasn't until I also brought his home brewing companion that I really wrapped my head around AG. But these days, with the Palmer book, the Internet, and forum sites like this one, its pretty easy to get into AG quickly if that's the way you want to go.

My gadget hoard has grown over time, although not because I needed the bling to make good beer. But because I wanted some of the gear to help me fine tune my beers, and some of the gear to shorten or simplify my brew day.

My wife and I have a closet obsession with zombie and end of the world movies. After watching them, the conversation will often turn to "how would you make beer in the wake of the zombie apocalypse?" When I put my mind to it, I realize I could actually ditch around half of my current brew house and still make beer in a pinch given access to ingredients.

And after reading a recent issue of BYO, a lot of the mystery around making your own malt is gone as well.

divrguy said:

Great presentation Denny. To the point, simple and fun.. That's what brewing really is!

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Thanks! My motto is "the best beer possible with the least effort possible while having the most fun possible!".

The only pieces of equipment that separate an all-grain brewer and an extract brewer is a mash tun and a good accurate thermometer. Most brew kettles already come with thermometer installed so you can get away with that - I do. A mash tun is as simple as buying a cooler and installing a bazooka screen with a ball valve assembly. You should be able to do that for less than $100. The other equipment like a chiller can be bought later. You do not need a grain mill or gelatin or irish moss. As with everything in life you can make it as simple and complicated as you like. I try to tell people that if you can make oatmeal you can handle all grain.

mpride1911 said:

My first batch was an extract wheat beer while I was still assembling my all grain equipment. It turned out horrible. Maybe 1-2% alcohol. I drank a quite a bit of it and then only blew a .012 on my breathalyzer. I know I should dump it to make corny keg room for the other three that I have in the final stages of fermentation. However, my all grain batches have been great and I love drinking them.

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How did you use extract and miss your OG by that much? Extract, when measured correctly in the correct volume of water will yield a very reliable OG.

derrickaubin said:

In the pre-prohibition days, brewing was done by women as part of their usual household activities, using equipment that they had in their kitchens.

After homebrewing was legalized in 1978, men came along and added complex process and equipment, within the tolerance of whatever their wives allowed them to have.

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LOL at the last sentence, but I think the equipment change and the improvement in homebrew quality were simultaneous and it had nothing to do with the gender of the brewers.

zippyclown said:

I was an extract brewer for a bunch of years. Then I walked into the LHBS and asked the guy for suggestions on a recipe for all grain IPA, not realizing it required a separate setup from what I had. In front of several people in line, he laughed and started lecturing me on the equipment and the time involved, etc etc. "You just can't suddenly decide to brew all grain!" he hollered. Most of the people in line were laughing hysterically at me. I seem to remember even a man's german shephard laughing as well. I will never forget that sound as long as I live. I blacked out for the remainder of the hazing but do remember screaming "FEET DON'T FAIL ME NOW" as I sprinted from the store.

After 2 years and 4 Anothony Robbins courses, I decided to revisit, and have been all grain ever since.

And looking back now I have to ask WHAT'S THE BIG FRIGGEN DEAL?

I skim over the message boards and it confuses me. People seem scared or imtimidated by the concept. It's like these people are deciding whether or not to have another child. I see the YouTube videos... 30 minutes of a guy trying to explain in great length how to convert a 10-gallon igloo cooler to be a mash tun, which by the way is pretty much all you need (hmm that took me under 10 mins using a wrench and a valve I bought online). Then there's the 60 minute step-by-step guide on how to fabricate your own false bottom ($15 on Amazon). A 3 month course on the chemistry of water you'll need to take before you can make an IPA (you trying to win a beer competition or make some good beer for your friends?).

Always been confused about all that.

Ok, bye!

zc

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chin up! you leaned something, nothing wasted. now go get a mesh bag large enough to fit your pot and do a 3 gallon BIAB ALL GRAIN brew.
simple as shallowing your favorite brew! check the BIAB sticky in this topic menu.

GD

Darwin18 said:

The only pieces of equipment that separate an all-grain brewer and an extract brewer is a mash tun and a good accurate thermometer. Most brew kettles already come with thermometer installed so you can get away with that - I do. A mash tun is as simple as buying a cooler and installing a bazooka screen with a ball valve assembly. You should be able to do that for less than $100. The other equipment like a chiller can be bought later. You do not need a grain mill or gelatin or irish moss. As with everything in life you can make it as simple and complicated as you like. I try to tell people that if you can make oatmeal you can handle all grain.

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A ball valve is unnecessary. I actually found I like the cheap nylon valve I use better than ball valve. And a hose braid is cheaper than a Bazooka. If you do full boils, you definiteley need some way to chill it.

jbaysurfer said:

LOL at the last sentence, but I think the equipment change and the improvement in homebrew quality were simultaneous and it had nothing to do with the gender of the brewers.

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Actually, the increase in quality and availability of ingredients is what has been driving homebrew quality, not the equipment.

zippyclown said:

100% of my mistakes still made beer.

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This belongs on a brew-club T-shirt.

Haha - I read the thread title as a question on the density and rigidness of each style of grain at the home brew store.

Just for my own edification and enjoyment... when I made my 1 gallon AG batch from the kit, my stock pot acted as both mash tun and kettle... correct?

Denny said:

Actually, the increase in quality and availability of ingredients is what has been driving homebrew quality, not the equipment.

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Not to be pedantic, but it's not argument fodder. I said they were simultaneous, not cause and effect.

But if I wanted to make an argument for equipment, I'd point out temperature control and wort coolers are kind of key to making good beer...and neither were widely available prior to 1978

Edit: You're my hero..and I shouldn't be arguing with you.

Yeah that's the one thing I hate about this hobby is elitist @ssh0l3s. I hate it in any hobby really. I for one would never laugh at anyone, only educate and assist. Some people just like to make themselves feel better by bringing others down. Just avoid those people, and take your money to another LHBS, they don't deserve your patronage.

I basically started with all grain and haven't looked backk. The equipment costs were a bit more but after that, it's all gravy from there. Ingredients are cheaper and the process is simpler, I think.

jwitt said:

If someone in a shop copped an attitude like that, I'd run like hell. Some folks need to cool their jets and lose the attitude.

I think a lot of people (me too?) over-complicate AG brewing because they're people who really like tinkering...endless tinkering. Some people just want to make beer and don't enjoy building gizmos or solving puzzles. Tinkery people are attracted to AG. At the shop I part-time at, many or most of our AG customers are engineers, machinist/fabricator types, and the like. Many or most of our kit and extract customers are people who are more looking for fun and also hand crafted beer, but just don't care to fiddle with things to make 'em work. There's enough room in the world for all of us, and the world needs more homebrew!

I can see why some people just plain don't want to do AG- a bit more equipment (takes more space), full boil instead of partial, more wort to chill before pitching, more temp measurement, more calculations. Some people just don't want the fuss, which is fine. Buy an ingredient kit, throw the pot on the stove, and have an easy and fun time of it. The last time I helped a friend with an extract kit, it was easy and fun hanging out. It's exactly what many people are looking for in a hobby. It really didn't feel like "brewing" though...but that's because I really enjoy taking lots of measurements, scribbling lots of notes, and controlling every aspect of the final product.

It's kind of like bread from a bread machine and a mix or making it from scratch. Choosing proportions of different flours, perfecting kneading and rising, getting the texture just right- compared to "dump it in and turn it on." Both methods make tasty bread.

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Nicely put.

AG can be as easy (BIAB) or difficult (fly sparging, decoction, etc...) as you want to make it. There is just no need for some shop to be elitist about it. There is a new shop in my area and after about 5 minutes of spending time in the guy's shop I swore to never go back because I could tell he just had the stupid elitist attitude. Like he knew better than anyone else.

Just not enough time on this planet for me to care about tool's like that let alone give them my money.

I love beer, I make beer, and I love to share my love for beer with others. No attitude necessary.

PuckX said:

AG can be as easy (BIAB) or difficult (fly sparging, decoction, etc...) as you want to make it. There is just no need for some shop to be elitist about it. There is a new shop in my area and after about 5 minutes of spending time in the guy's shop I swore to never go back because I could tell he just had the stupid elitist attitude. Like he knew better than anyone else.

Just not enough time on this planet for me to care about tool's like that let alone give them my money.

I love beer, I make beer, and I love to share my love for beer with others. No attitude necessary.

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Yep!

I say AG all the way! Once I went to AG, I never went back except for a couple of times using some really old extracts I really enjoy being able to tweak my own recipes and going through all the steps... Crushing grain, mashing in, etc... Now that I keg, it's even better because I can have it on tap!

Bodesbrew said:

I say AG all the way! Once I went to AG, I never went back except for a couple of times using some really old extracts I really enjoy being able to tweak my own recipes and going through all the steps... Crushing grain, mashing in, etc... Now that I keg, it's even better because I can have it on tap!

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I love AG too. Might try extract one day but I don't see it in the near future.
I'm with you on the control of your recipe issue. Nothing better than being able to adjust a recipe to your taste buds.:rockin:

pb

I started AG kind of by accident.
Read up on BIAB, and welded a SS nipple to the bottom of my keggle, bought a strainer bag and some grains and gave it a try.
One day (after a few batches) the bag broke and dumped all the grain into the MT. I had no choice but to open the valve and try to save the wort into a bucket.
To my surprise, the wort flowed easily, and with no grain (after a short clearing).

The next time, instead of BIAB, I got a piece of SS screen, and cut it to fit the bottom of the keggle. It worked great, and I've been refining my set up and doing AG ever since.

The guys at your LHBS were jerks.
Mine are pretty good/friendly, but they are way behind the times... I don't have the heart to tell them (or argue about) all the old-school, outdated facts they always spew.

I for one don't miss the "extract taste". I can tell the difference like night and day. A guy I worked with was a brewer as well. We swapped a few bottles. I gave him some distilled stuff and he gave me some partial mash brews and I was blown away. Haven't looked back

Dude, I waneed to make the jump to all grain for years. Just never got around to it and for years thought I could not afford it. Sad part is, for the diff in cost between two partial and two all grains, the small cost will be paid for.
I just did my first all grain this weekend. So ridiculously easy that I thought I must be missing something. Guess what? Brew is fermenting away in my basement. So easy, I don't know why I waited so long to make the jump. I have been brewing on a crappy electric cooktop for my entire brewing life, a cheap outdoor propane burner did a full boil in less time than I used to be able to do a partial boil in the kitchen. The full day maybe took me 30 more minutes than a partial. I know this because my buddy brewed a partial with me at the same time. It was great. I think I just love an excuse to hang out in the backyard and drink beer. So relaxing and just fun to do it.
I have a real problem though now. My supply chain is full and I want to brew again. Looks like I will be sending some friends home happy with homebrew.

I started brewing about a year ago. Like many on here I started with an extract kit, then pieced together a couple of extract brews myself, then when I got (made happen) the needed extra equipment it was on to AG. And it sounds like a cliche at this point, but "I haven't looked back."

I have to admit when I was gearing up for the switch -- reading through some of the threads on this and other forums did intimidate me a little bit. It instilled a little bit of paranoia in me, but I think that has helped me make better beers. Even from the beginning extract brews, I had things like proper sanitation beat into my head.

Now, I'm beyond the initial paranoia and realize worst case scenario -- I'll have 50-plus beers to enjoy -- that aren't exactly how I expected. Even when it isn't just like I expected I learn something from it, and the next time I'll fix the problem. That is part of the joy about AG brewing though, is being able to create your own unique beer!

All-grain seems a lot more difficult than it is due to the sheer number of different things you can and can't do and it can be hard to know what's actually necessary and what isn't when you first start out. I do think a lot of the perception of difficulty has been reduced with the rise in popularity of batch sparging (as well as other "modern sensibilities" i.e. ditching mash-outs). In my opinion of course.

Not that I'm saying you can't make wort just as easily when fly sparging, but the sheer number of instructions you're given in order to batch sparge (e.g. don't worry too much about the termperature, drain as quickly as you can, etc.) are much lower resulting in the process being very easy to wrap your mind around.