30 amp or 50 amp? Pros and cons

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What is your preferred electric setup for 10G batches?

  • HERMS-30 amp

  • HERMS-50 amp

  • RIMS-30 amp

  • RIMS-50 amp

  • Other, cooler, nonrecirc, etc


Results are only viewable after voting.

shroomzofdoom

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Putting together the pieces for a my new electric brewing rig and now need to install my breakers and spa panel.

Before I do, I'd like your thoughts on the pros and cons of a 30 amp vs a 50 amp setup. Not sure if this thread exists elsewhere, but I did search a bit and came up with a few close to it, not exactly what I am looking for though...



Here's what I have so far, please correct where I am wrong and feel free to add anything I missed:

30 amp
PROS
-Cheaper control panel, no need for breakers in the panel
-Cheaper for extension cord. My rig will be about 35 feet from the spa panel. (assuming 8/4 SOOW for 30 amp?)
-Cheaper GFCIs
-If RIMS brewer, this could be all the power you need

CONS
-Can only run one element at a time (5500w @ 240=roughly 22 amp draw; 4500w @ 240=roughly 18.75 amp draw?) which makes heating strike water for HERMS a bit of a dance
-Future expansion to 50amp not simple, could mean significant control panel and wiring upgrades
-Longer brewday


50 amp
PROS
-Can run two elements simultaneously (assuming 5500/4500)
-Faster brewday, faster time to heat
-More flexibility in choosing elements, more configurations: 5500/4500, 4500/4500, etc
-Ease of future expansion

CONS
-Cost of breakers/extra wiring in control panel
-Cost of extension cord (assuming 6/4 SOOW for 50 amp?)
-Cost of spa panel and GFCIs

My conclusion is that the HERMS brewer looking to do 10G batches has fewer options and that 50amp is really the way to go.

What did I miss gang?
 
I don't recirculate my mash, but if I did I would use HERMS. That said, 50 amp is worth it if you have room in your panel. It allows so many more options with back to back brew days etc.
 
I went 50 to heat the strike water in the BK and HLT and run two pumps at the same time.

Not entirely necessary for single batch brew day, but once I get better at managing the process, I can see myself taking a full day to knock out 20 gallons in back to back batches.
 
What JT said. Also, if you're already running wire for 30 amps, running a bit larger wire for 50 amps will future proof your wiring. You can always run a 30 amp panel and upgrade from there, but changing out the wiring in the walls would be pain. - unless you won't have to do that. It comes down to what you think you will do.
 
I chose HERMS-50 amp because of doing consecutive batches. 30 amp is fine if you're doing single 10G batches, but if you wish to power the HLT and the BK at the same time, you're going to need 50 amp.
 
One of the cheapest GFI options is a Spa Panel from Home Depot... which comes as a 50 AMP. The rest of the stuff isn't that much more expensive compared to 30 amps. I say, why NOT go with 50 amps?
 
BetterSense said:
Can somebody explain HERMS and RIMS to me?

Google?

HERMS uses a heat exchanger, usually a copper coil submerged in heated water and the mash water never comes into direct contact with a heating element. RIMS heats directly by passing the mash water over an electric heating element. RIMS is almost exclusively electric, HERMS can be done with any heat source.
 
RIMS is short for Recirculating Infusion Mash System.
HERMS is short for Heat Exchange Recirculating Mash System.

A HERMS will rely on a heat exchanger, in most cases the hot liquor tank (HLT) in which a copper coil is placed, in other cases, another external vessel that is filled with a heating medium (water) in which a copper coil is immersed. The mash water is pumped through this coil, picking up heat from the surrounding water, and returned to the mash lauter tun (MLT).

A RIMS system relies on a form of direct heating where the mash water (wort) is pumped through a small tube in which an electric heating element has been installed. The mash water is pumped through this tube, past the heating element, and heated to the proper temperature prior to returning to the MLT.
 
Don't think about the expense of 50A, rather, look at the incremental cost. Since you need something, the base cost for 30A can already be considered as budgeted. As previously stated, a 50A spa panel is not too expensive, so you can go with that from either a 30A or 50A circuit. Only the costs of cord and plugs will vary. Even with 30A supplied to the control panel you should consider breakers in the panel as you probably don't want the pump or control powered from a 30A bus as you would likely use smaller wire size to the pump. With 2 elements on a 30A circuit you might also need interlocking equipment to keep them from both firing at the same time.

Build a parts list each way and price them out. You might be surprised with the results.
 
I recently converted my system to all-electric, using 5500w elements for the HLT and BK, and using my old RIMS to recirculate the mash. (I'll upload pictures soon.) I decided to run a 50 amp service, which allows me to "not worry" when running the RIMS, a pump or two, a 5500w element, and even the inline fan in my vent hood. It did cost a bit more, but worth it all the way.
 
I usually adhere to the theory, "Buy big or buy twice."

...then again, I take a lot of heat from the wife on the expense of my hobbies... :)

I think you made the right call.
 
From my experience with everything else in this hobby as soon as I buy something I want something bigger and better. I went with 50 amps just for that reason.
 
So I didn't answer your poll because my system was not on it. I went with 60amp (two 2pole 30amp gfi in a 100 amp subpanel that feeds two lines into my main control panel).

My system is a fully redundant, two sided panel. Both 5500w elements and all my do dads can fire at once. I have an eherms.

This type of set up is ideal for back to back brew days. I feel like for the first time the rig is where it needs to be for my use. Highly recommend it.

The cost for the upgraded amperage is well worth it and considering the cost for the r control panel alone, not a prohibitive cost. For my square d GFI breakers I bought them for around $70ea new on ebay and the 100amp subpanel was maybe $25 or so. 60 amp 2 pole breaker was $15ish and the #6 wire to run to the box I can't recall.
 
Question, mention of the spa box throws my build into a bit of spin. Do I need a 50a GFCI in ADDITION to a 50a in my main box? Can't I just use the 50a GFCI to cover both jobs of being a breaker and not getting me killed?
 
Question, mention of the spa box throws my build into a bit of spin. Do I need a 50a GFCI in ADDITION to a 50a in my main box? Can't I just use the 50a GFCI to cover both jobs of being a breaker and not getting me killed?

one 50 amp gfi in your spa box is fine.

I have two 30 amp gfis in my subpanel because square D does not make a 2 pole 60amp gfi for my main panel and I wanted to run with 2 elements at 5500, thus requireing over 50 amps. So I went with two 30's instead. Figured I wanted to build this once.
 
Question, mention of the spa box throws my build into a bit of spin. Do I need a 50a GFCI in ADDITION to a 50a in my main box? Can't I just use the 50a GFCI to cover both jobs of being a breaker and not getting me killed?
You certainly can do that but a breaker must pe placed in your mains panel to start. If you choose to buy a GFCI breaker for the mains panel, you are A-Ok.

Just a little info on this whole process. The Spa Panel is chosen as an inexpensive solution for providing GFCI protection for your brewery and you. A 50A Spa Panel will cost you about $55 at HomeDepot. A GFCI breaker for your mains panel will cost you 3 to 5 times that price just for the breaker that will fit. That is very expensive.

So: when you set the system up, just place a standard breaker in you mains panel (30A or 50A) and then use the Spa Panel for the GFCI circuit protection.

You can also secure a 60A Spa Panel for about $75 from HomeDepot if that is what you want to do. Again, you would place a standard breaker in your mains panel and then use the Spa Panel for GFCI protection.

Please keep in mind that a brewery will be a wet area setup. It is critical for your safety that GFCI protection be implemented. It is also mandated within the current NEC (National Electrical Code). Please do not build an electric brew rig without it in place. In other words - Do Not Play You Bet Your Life.

P-J
 
Wow, that is a good deal. I bought Murray MP250GF 50-Amp 2 Pole 240-Volt Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter, which may wind up returning it's way to them in favor of said spa box. I already have a 50a in the main box so I could wire it to the spa box with no extra effort.
That is a fairly inexpensive GFCI breaker. You could use that - but - are you sure it will fit your mains power panel?

Another thought for you in this whole scheme of things. I originally developed the "Spa Panel' solution for brewers that intended to use a dryer outlet or a stove outlet. With the use of the Spa Panel, the GFCI protection is placed much closer to your brewery and with that, the user would have Zero hesitation hitting the EPO button on the brewery controller. The whole process becomes a much safer environment when you do not have to walk 100 feet to reset a GFCI breaker.

Just saying.

P-J
 
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Ahhh, so if I take your meaning I could use run the wiring as originally intended but add the spa box before the stove outlet I was going to install, saving a lot of extra work.
 
I don't believe there's an outlet for the spa panel. It's more of a junction that goes between where you install your outlet and your main breaker box.
 
Had I seen PJs spa solution before my build, I might have opted two spa panels for each leg of my control panel.

unfortunately I didn't :D
 
Question, mention of the spa box throws my build into a bit of spin. Do I need a 50a GFCI in ADDITION to a 50a in my main box? Can't I just use the 50a GFCI to cover both jobs of being a breaker and not getting me killed?

Looks like you got this figured out, but it's as easy as adding a 50A 240V breaker to your main panel, running wire from it to your spa panel to feed the GFCI breaker in the panel. The output of the GFCI breaker can either go to an outlet in the panel or a wire to feed your control panel.

For portability (I don't plan on staying in this house forever), I added the 50A breaker in my panel and ran 6/3 wire to a 50A range outlet.
elrgrc02a.jpg


I wired a 50A range PLUG into the source side of my spa panel. That plug goes into the outlet above. The output of the breaker in the spa panel goes to another outlet, just like the first, but mounted into the panel. This is the outlet that powers my control panel. I wired another 50A plug into my control box and that gets plugged into the outlet mounted in the spa panel.

Sorry if that's confusing, but it allows me to take everything with me except the breaker in the main panel, the first outlet, and the 50 or so feet of wire between them.

Could someone post a picture of the outlet you buy/install in the spa panel? Thanks!

See the picture posted above. That's what you'll use if you go the 50A route. Otherwise, 30A plugs/outlets are the same as your dryer.

I don't believe there's an outlet for the spa panel. It's more of a junction that goes between where you install your outlet and your main breaker box.

If you're looking for a permanent solution, you can definitely do it this way.




Check out the link in my signature. It's a 50A eHERMS build that started from a natural gas Sabco Brew Magic. I got lots of help along the way, especially from Paul, and I absolutely love my system. A few tweaks left on the stand to lower the overall height, and it will be golden. Make good friends with Paul (P-J) and your life will be a lot easier on this project as he'll probably help you with a wiring diagram and he won't steer you wrong. He'll also definitely keep you in your lane when it comes to safety. I honestly don't think I'd have my system running on electric without his help.
 
Check out the link in my signature. It's a 50A eHERMS build that started from a natural gas Sabco Brew Magic. I got lots of help along the way, especially from Paul, and I absolutely love my system. A few tweaks left on the stand to lower the overall height, and it will be golden. Make good friends with Paul (P-J) and your life will be a lot easier on this project as he'll probably help you with a wiring diagram and he won't steer you wrong. He'll also definitely keep you in your lane when it comes to safety. I honestly don't think I'd have my system running on electric without his help.


Yeah, I have seen your design and am looking at something very similar. I just have a few more questions then I'll start wiring things up.
 
I ran two 50 amp circuits from a new 100 amp pannel in my detached garage coming from my 200 amp main in the house.
 
deadboy said:
Wow, that is a good deal. I bought Murray MP250GF 50-Amp 2 Pole 240-Volt Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter, which may wind up returning it's way to them in favor of said spa box. I already have a 50a in the main box so I could wire it to the spa box with no extra effort.

When I bought my spa box, I made sure it used the same type of breaker as my panel. Then all I had to do was pull it out of the box and put it into my existing panel, and I was able to use the box for something else.
 
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